MANCHESTER - 8
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jabird, you're spot on with Airport City just being a large mall and its purpose is to create more revenue for the airport owner. The concept of an airport city, also called aerotropolis, is now a close to 20 year old. In 1992 Mall of America opened just outside the perimeter fences of Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport, and this was three years before the French anthropologist Marc Augé came out with his essay "Non-Places: Introduction to an Anthropology of Supermodernity". The expression "non-place" is difficult for us aviation enthusiasts to swallow when used about an airport, but if you want to read more about airport cities - here is a short and precise wikipedia page about the subject: Airport City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I have been a regular traveler through DUS from the late 1990s (after the horrific fire on 11 April 1996), but it latest until 2005 for having enough time to visit the roof terrace. On that May day in 2005 my impression was that a large portion was English speaking, and a group of ten had flown in from Manchester that day. I have never given the impression that the plane spotters play an important passenger group between MAN and DUS, especially when you also take in to consideration how good spotters are to find cheap tickets.
I have been a regular traveler through DUS from the late 1990s (after the horrific fire on 11 April 1996), but it latest until 2005 for having enough time to visit the roof terrace. On that May day in 2005 my impression was that a large portion was English speaking, and a group of ten had flown in from Manchester that day. I have never given the impression that the plane spotters play an important passenger group between MAN and DUS, especially when you also take in to consideration how good spotters are to find cheap tickets.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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L-K,
Thanks for the link, I am very well versed in the concept of the airport city as my degree was in Architecture. One place I took a very close look at was DEN, which is finally becoming an airport city nearly 20 years after opening. The Americans also have the concept of building their cities around airports instead of the other way round - ATL, CLT probably being two good examples and DEN trying to follow in that mould. Not sure why BHX isn't on that list as we have the huge NEC complex bolted on!
There is a niche for us geeks out there, but even after you combine spotters, architecture pundits and film locations buffs (I count myself as all 3), I doubt it is more than a seat on each flight! Maybe SXM has a few more than that
I'm not familiar with Auge, but his thesis sounds similar to the work of Andres Duany who wrote 'Suburban Nation' - but who also did something about what he wrote and has designed numerous town plans around the world, including the highly influential Seaside, Fl (featured in Truman Show).
Are airports suburban? Inasmmuch as they are usually heavily road dependent, and usually low density sprawl, then they often are. But I would say MAN has a distinct sense of place, and that the central terminal area is quite dense.
Thanks for the link, I am very well versed in the concept of the airport city as my degree was in Architecture. One place I took a very close look at was DEN, which is finally becoming an airport city nearly 20 years after opening. The Americans also have the concept of building their cities around airports instead of the other way round - ATL, CLT probably being two good examples and DEN trying to follow in that mould. Not sure why BHX isn't on that list as we have the huge NEC complex bolted on!
There is a niche for us geeks out there, but even after you combine spotters, architecture pundits and film locations buffs (I count myself as all 3), I doubt it is more than a seat on each flight! Maybe SXM has a few more than that
I'm not familiar with Auge, but his thesis sounds similar to the work of Andres Duany who wrote 'Suburban Nation' - but who also did something about what he wrote and has designed numerous town plans around the world, including the highly influential Seaside, Fl (featured in Truman Show).
Are airports suburban? Inasmmuch as they are usually heavily road dependent, and usually low density sprawl, then they often are. But I would say MAN has a distinct sense of place, and that the central terminal area is quite dense.
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Andrés Duany together with his wife Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk and Jeff Speck came out with Suburban Nation five years after Marc Augé came out with Non-Places and I therefore suspect the threesome have also cast a glance at what Marc Augé wrote.
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LN, As soon as Henry said 'any colour you want', I'm sure there were people thinking 'oh no, buildings made just for the car will destroy our cities'.
Of course, you could say the train got suburbs going in earnest and to get back ot, Manchester's expansion is often the text book story!
So yeah, maybe Auge was first but I will confess I hadn't heard of him. Duany has built though, so that makes him (or them) much more relevant imho.
Anyway, thinking of MAN city, it is more an add-on to the site, not in the centre of it - more like Stokley Park? I'd me much more interested if it was in the central complex. Curious if there are any height restrictions to airport buildings - especially if behind the range of the control tower?
Of course, you could say the train got suburbs going in earnest and to get back ot, Manchester's expansion is often the text book story!
So yeah, maybe Auge was first but I will confess I hadn't heard of him. Duany has built though, so that makes him (or them) much more relevant imho.
Anyway, thinking of MAN city, it is more an add-on to the site, not in the centre of it - more like Stokley Park? I'd me much more interested if it was in the central complex. Curious if there are any height restrictions to airport buildings - especially if behind the range of the control tower?
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Here is the official illustration on the MAN website of the Airport City:
And my interpretation looks like this:
I don't think there is other limitations to the height of the building other than local regulation since the distance from centre line of the northern runway is so great. Much more interesting I think is the new T3 pier extension to the east and the new apron (blue area). We can not see the end of the pier to the east, but it seems like the Airport Hotel have to close in the future. Another item of interest is the airside connection between T1 and T2. Then we can look forward to an around 1.2 mile airside walk from the western end of T2 to the eastern end of the new T3 pier. The new connection will add to the flexibility of the airport operation - and with that we may see the end of airlines only using gates at one specific terminal.
And my interpretation looks like this:
I don't think there is other limitations to the height of the building other than local regulation since the distance from centre line of the northern runway is so great. Much more interesting I think is the new T3 pier extension to the east and the new apron (blue area). We can not see the end of the pier to the east, but it seems like the Airport Hotel have to close in the future. Another item of interest is the airside connection between T1 and T2. Then we can look forward to an around 1.2 mile airside walk from the western end of T2 to the eastern end of the new T3 pier. The new connection will add to the flexibility of the airport operation - and with that we may see the end of airlines only using gates at one specific terminal.
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I'm not being negative but...
Yesterday Radio 4 carried a little publicised Documentary on the work of the Economist/Philospher EF Schumacher author of "Small is Beautiful".
Looking at these grand proposals, they look great seen in two dimensions from a considerable distance away.
It's amazing what archetects can dream up between real projects. Look closely at the Machester proposal and you see a lot of warehousing /office accom etc. I bet Manchester has a lot of this already.
Non Space on a big scale: where the environmental impact of a major airport does not effect the commercial activity too badly - A way of moneterising a area commercially that would not really be a place where people would want to live.
Is there housing at the edge ? - I cannot tell. - The whole thing reminds me of those "Intergalactic Space Cities on the Moon" , beloved of Dan Dare Si Fi of the nineteen 50's. OK there are; as we have seen, Airport Cities - But the Question is are they thriving ? - The precepts that we in the West, have held as given; since WWII, e.g. cheap energy are no longer true.
The assumptions that underpin developement like this, no longer apply in the UK - The systemic lack of finance for the forseeable future, fuel costs etc mean that grand projects like this will remain a planners dream.
CAT III
(Wannabee route developement manager at BHX)
Looking at these grand proposals, they look great seen in two dimensions from a considerable distance away.
It's amazing what archetects can dream up between real projects. Look closely at the Machester proposal and you see a lot of warehousing /office accom etc. I bet Manchester has a lot of this already.
Non Space on a big scale: where the environmental impact of a major airport does not effect the commercial activity too badly - A way of moneterising a area commercially that would not really be a place where people would want to live.
Is there housing at the edge ? - I cannot tell. - The whole thing reminds me of those "Intergalactic Space Cities on the Moon" , beloved of Dan Dare Si Fi of the nineteen 50's. OK there are; as we have seen, Airport Cities - But the Question is are they thriving ? - The precepts that we in the West, have held as given; since WWII, e.g. cheap energy are no longer true.
The assumptions that underpin developement like this, no longer apply in the UK - The systemic lack of finance for the forseeable future, fuel costs etc mean that grand projects like this will remain a planners dream.
CAT III
(Wannabee route developement manager at BHX)
Last edited by Guest 112233; 26th Jun 2011 at 09:23. Reason: EF not EM
Join Date: Mar 2006
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It appear so MYK661, and the T3 parking house too seems to have been replaced with a T3 extension (new check-in area?).
MAN has indicated in the Ground Transport Plan (a part of the newly approved Master Plan 2030) that the public transport share for both passengers and employees to be 14-15% in 2010. In the CAA Passenger Survey Report 2009 state the public transport share for passengers flying out of MAN to be 13%. But there is also regional differences with only 6.3% of the passengers coming from Wales are using public transport to 31.6% of the passenger from the South East. This is very low numbers compared with other large airports in Europe and even the largest airports in the UK (the four large around London has an average of 39%). The top airport for public ground transport according to ACI has a 67% share for both passengers and employees (I don't dare to name that airport again, but I can say it has now around 2 million yearly passengers more than MAN). In other words, MAN has to improve their public transportation numbers before they can even think about reducing the parking areas they have today.
MAN has indicated in the Ground Transport Plan (a part of the newly approved Master Plan 2030) that the public transport share for both passengers and employees to be 14-15% in 2010. In the CAA Passenger Survey Report 2009 state the public transport share for passengers flying out of MAN to be 13%. But there is also regional differences with only 6.3% of the passengers coming from Wales are using public transport to 31.6% of the passenger from the South East. This is very low numbers compared with other large airports in Europe and even the largest airports in the UK (the four large around London has an average of 39%). The top airport for public ground transport according to ACI has a 67% share for both passengers and employees (I don't dare to name that airport again, but I can say it has now around 2 million yearly passengers more than MAN). In other words, MAN has to improve their public transportation numbers before they can even think about reducing the parking areas they have today.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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LN,
If you won't, I will
I think you are talking about OSL - very fast links into city centre, but also region beyond too. But MAN offers 6-7min frequency to Piccadilly and most services continue elsewhere after this. So what are they doing wrong?
Who is coming from South East to use MAN anyway?
I think public transport is any airport owner's dilemna - it is costly to bring in, and earns money for the train companies not the airport. I think LHR & STN effectively have a station usage fee built into the ticket cost so I guess they get some cashback, but afaik, fares to MAN are similar to nearby stations?
Car parks bring in plenty of revenue, and if they aren't multistorey, the ROI is massive. However, they can easily be shifted elsewhere, or in this case I'm presuming that a Section 106 agreement would essentially say they've got to go?
If you won't, I will
I think you are talking about OSL - very fast links into city centre, but also region beyond too. But MAN offers 6-7min frequency to Piccadilly and most services continue elsewhere after this. So what are they doing wrong?Who is coming from South East to use MAN anyway?
I think public transport is any airport owner's dilemna - it is costly to bring in, and earns money for the train companies not the airport. I think LHR & STN effectively have a station usage fee built into the ticket cost so I guess they get some cashback, but afaik, fares to MAN are similar to nearby stations?
Car parks bring in plenty of revenue, and if they aren't multistorey, the ROI is massive. However, they can easily be shifted elsewhere, or in this case I'm presuming that a Section 106 agreement would essentially say they've got to go?
Join Date: Mar 2006
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jabird:
So what are they doing wrong?
So what are they doing wrong?
I think you need to look again in the train table jabird, it takes a miniumum of 14 minutes to cover the 8 miles in to Picadilly. That gives an average speed of just above 34 mph. If we look at OSL, the Airport Express Train takes 19 minutes to cover the 23 miles strait line distance and the average speed is almost 73 mph (the rail line is actually closer to 33 miles long, so the real speed is over 100 mph). If you drive by car the same distance it will take twice as long. Then you have to find a parking space, get the parking ticket and at the end catch the shuttle bus from the parking space to the terminal. We're talking minimum one hour compared with 19 minutes by train. To reach any part of Oslo or the suburbs you only need to change the means of transportation once (to get in walking distance to your destination), and frequency is usually more than four times an hour. Comfort wise there isn't a need to complain either. I haven't traveled on the GMPTE, but I have had the pleasure to travel with the Stansted Airport Express (train) on first class. The comfort was poor - noisy, filthy and shaking like h.
jabird:
Who is coming from South East to use MAN anyway?
Who is coming from South East to use MAN anyway?
I have extracted the Greater Manchester. Greater Manchester has only 22% of the charter passenger and as much as 36.7% of the scheduled passengers.
The rest is politics - you have to set a goal to make a change. Trains, metros and trams runs on hydro electric power in Norway and don't emit any CO2 - cars do in buckets.
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LN,
Still not getting it.
All the pros of train apply to OSL, MAN & STN, it is just some of the numbers that are different.
Last time I checked, frequency from Piccadilly to MAN was such that the timetables just said "frequent services". Essentially c. 10 tph v. 4 to OSL.
Afaik, Flytoget runs in a straight line - it doesn't branch off. Off the top of my head, destinations with a direct link to MAN include Liverpool, Preston, Windemere, Edinburgh, Sheffield, Leeds.... and even Crewe in the other direction.
If people are going to use the train as an alternative to flying (e.g. very viable now across almost the whole spine of Italy) then the most important factor is speed. If they are using a train to get to the airport as an alternative to driving, then frequency and convenience are key.
MAN is within the GMPTE zone - a single from Picadilly to MAN is much less than an equivalent journey to OSL.
One change from MAN gets you to very large parts of the UK.
I think the difference between MAN (or substitute any UK airport) has more to do with mentality - we (not me personally, I don't drive, but Brits in general) love our cars - the Scandinavians are more happy to leave the car at home.
As for the politics and the CO2 argument, I think the journey to the airport is a fraction of the flight itself - unless you are alone driving a hummer from Thurso to catch a full shuttle flight to London! Public transport to airports reduces local air pollution - where conversely, cars not planes are the biggest offenders; and reduces traffic. Where that power is generated is again a rather small part of the picture.
If we really want to reduce our passenger transport emissions, then the answer is to substitute as many short haul flights as possible with high speed or medium speed high frequency rail. HS2 won't make much difference here as going to Brum won't substitute a single flight and the existing upgrade to the WCML has already swung the modal split @MAN in favour of the train. LCY-MAN & LPL gone, obviously helped by the double dosage of APD too!
HS2 would need to continue to Scotland to be really useful from a CO2 perspective but the political will isn't there, so we get a half-way solution with 1/4 of the value.
Still not getting it.
All the pros of train apply to OSL, MAN & STN, it is just some of the numbers that are different.
Last time I checked, frequency from Piccadilly to MAN was such that the timetables just said "frequent services". Essentially c. 10 tph v. 4 to OSL.
Afaik, Flytoget runs in a straight line - it doesn't branch off. Off the top of my head, destinations with a direct link to MAN include Liverpool, Preston, Windemere, Edinburgh, Sheffield, Leeds.... and even Crewe in the other direction.
If people are going to use the train as an alternative to flying (e.g. very viable now across almost the whole spine of Italy) then the most important factor is speed. If they are using a train to get to the airport as an alternative to driving, then frequency and convenience are key.
MAN is within the GMPTE zone - a single from Picadilly to MAN is much less than an equivalent journey to OSL.
One change from MAN gets you to very large parts of the UK.
I think the difference between MAN (or substitute any UK airport) has more to do with mentality - we (not me personally, I don't drive, but Brits in general) love our cars - the Scandinavians are more happy to leave the car at home.
As for the politics and the CO2 argument, I think the journey to the airport is a fraction of the flight itself - unless you are alone driving a hummer from Thurso to catch a full shuttle flight to London! Public transport to airports reduces local air pollution - where conversely, cars not planes are the biggest offenders; and reduces traffic. Where that power is generated is again a rather small part of the picture.
If we really want to reduce our passenger transport emissions, then the answer is to substitute as many short haul flights as possible with high speed or medium speed high frequency rail. HS2 won't make much difference here as going to Brum won't substitute a single flight and the existing upgrade to the WCML has already swung the modal split @MAN in favour of the train. LCY-MAN & LPL gone, obviously helped by the double dosage of APD too!
HS2 would need to continue to Scotland to be really useful from a CO2 perspective but the political will isn't there, so we get a half-way solution with 1/4 of the value.
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Metrolink finally being under construction to the airport will help, especially on the worker front. For some reason people who dont "do" public transport are more than happy to use a tram.
To seriously improve the numbers there are a number of things TfGM could do:
1. West Coast Mainline - there was an interesting article a few months back that Piccadilly is struggling to find capacity for more West Coast Mainline Trains to London. As some of these use the Wilmslow route why not start/end one an hour at the airport instead? (This could be extended to Cross Country trains / Arriva Wales etc who start at Piccadilly but go through Wilmslow, and make use of the facility to its best possible advantage).
2. Sell "Manchester Express" tickets at the airport, online and onboard as happens with STN/LGW etc? (I know you CAN buy online and they do have ticket machines in arrivals etc but would help airline retail sales and improve visibility).
3. (Slightly more off the wall) Get airlines to sell through tickets to Liverpool, Newcastle, Edinburgh etc i.e. flight plus train included, removes a level of stress from visitors and promotes "seamless" travel.
4. Get the Station Check-In working, one of the big barriers to travelling by coach and train I hear is that people dont want to be "lugging bags" all over the place. There are check-in desks in the station, use them and possibly later expand this to Piccadilly too.
5. HS2 Longer term this may as the article says deliver many of the benefits but will be after BHX get HS2 so may put MAN at a disadvantage.
To seriously improve the numbers there are a number of things TfGM could do:
1. West Coast Mainline - there was an interesting article a few months back that Piccadilly is struggling to find capacity for more West Coast Mainline Trains to London. As some of these use the Wilmslow route why not start/end one an hour at the airport instead? (This could be extended to Cross Country trains / Arriva Wales etc who start at Piccadilly but go through Wilmslow, and make use of the facility to its best possible advantage).
2. Sell "Manchester Express" tickets at the airport, online and onboard as happens with STN/LGW etc? (I know you CAN buy online and they do have ticket machines in arrivals etc but would help airline retail sales and improve visibility).
3. (Slightly more off the wall) Get airlines to sell through tickets to Liverpool, Newcastle, Edinburgh etc i.e. flight plus train included, removes a level of stress from visitors and promotes "seamless" travel.
4. Get the Station Check-In working, one of the big barriers to travelling by coach and train I hear is that people dont want to be "lugging bags" all over the place. There are check-in desks in the station, use them and possibly later expand this to Piccadilly too.
5. HS2 Longer term this may as the article says deliver many of the benefits but will be after BHX get HS2 so may put MAN at a disadvantage.
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Couple of questions
The line from Oslo to airport
1 is it a dedicated line or does it run into a very major rail junction/terminal
2 does it have any pick up/drop off stops en route
Ian B
The line from Oslo to airport
1 is it a dedicated line or does it run into a very major rail junction/terminal
2 does it have any pick up/drop off stops en route
Ian B
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So it's July on Friday, I read a while back that 23R/05L refurbishment will be completed September. I know I've asked this before but is that still on track? Is taxiway Alpha also getting a nice new layer of tarmac? I doesn't look very nice down the end of 23R passing the AVP etc.
Next question,
Airbridges on Pier C T1 - I heard last year about replacing these in stages, is this also still going to happen?
Next question,
Airbridges on Pier C T1 - I heard last year about replacing these in stages, is this also still going to happen?
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Airbridges on Pier C T1 - I heard last year about replacing these in stages, is this also still going to happen?
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Ian Brooks:
Couple of questions
The line from Oslo to airport
1 is it a dedicated line or does it run into a very major rail junction/terminal
2 does it have any pick up/drop off stops en route
Couple of questions
The line from Oslo to airport
1 is it a dedicated line or does it run into a very major rail junction/terminal
2 does it have any pick up/drop off stops en route
1. It's sort of a dedicated line (design speed 270 kph) between OSL and Oslo S (Oslo Central Station). The reason for me saying sort of is the line is shared with Inter City trains. At the half way point Lillestrřm is a junction with 10 parallel tracks, and obviously the Oslo Central Station is a serious junction with 18 parallel tracks. The Airport Express Train continues after the central station on the ordinary tracks below ground westward and coming in day light at Skřyen. In one year the local traffic will be separated from Inter City and Airport Express as the new high speed tunnel between Lysaker and Sandvika will open. Between Sandvika and Asker there is already a separate high speed tunnel separate from local traffic.
2. Departures 16, 36 and 56 minutes past the hour from OSL will stop at Lillestrřm before Oslo S and continue all the way to Drammen stopping at the stations shown above. Departures 06, 26 and 46 minutes past the hour from OSL will not go direct to Oslo S which is also the final stop.
I heard runway refurbishment is on schedule.
This update is on the Airport website:
http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/m...e+24-06-11.pdf
Not sure about any work on taxiway Alpha.
This update is on the Airport website:
http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/m...e+24-06-11.pdf
Not sure about any work on taxiway Alpha.