Irish Regional Airport...the Future
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Originally Posted by Just a spotter
The two states that exist on the island of Ireland are
a) Northern Ireland (part of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) and
b) Ireland (plain and simple).
a) Northern Ireland (part of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) and
b) Ireland (plain and simple).
Originally Posted by Permanent Mission Of Ireland To The United Nations
Permanent Mission Of Ireland To The United Nations]
Name of State
The Irish Constitution provides that the name of the State is Éire or in the English language, Ireland. The Republic of Ireland Act of 1948 provides for the description of the State as the Republic of Ireland but this provision has not changed the use of ‘Ireland’ as the name of the State in the English language.
Name of State
The Irish Constitution provides that the name of the State is Éire or in the English language, Ireland. The Republic of Ireland Act of 1948 provides for the description of the State as the Republic of Ireland but this provision has not changed the use of ‘Ireland’ as the name of the State in the English language.
I am no expert on Irish constitutional matters, but if I have understood the above correctly - It would take a referendum within a republic with a written constitution, to chage that states name.
Angry Rebel
You make some good points about regional airports despite your attempts at sarcasm based on you not reading my post though. I never said Google was definitive on what you rightly say is a side issue.
I said:-
Originally Posted by Ernest Lanc's
I won't say more than this, as you can argue until blue in face - Google this point and will be swapping source and counter source until the cows come home
Sorry folks for bringing this up again, but If I am quoted incorrectly or out of context, they I have to reply.
On point (1) of the post by Angry Rebel, I agree with that point - But think that future increase in pax resulting from development would make for a larger catchment area. So downgrading "Volume" as a factor for keeping a regional open is wrong IMO.
Also Donegal with it's scattered population has that as a strong case for keeping open, even with a subsidy if necessary.
Last edited by Ernest Lanc's; 9th Dec 2009 at 08:27. Reason: To remove some text
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As someone who was born in the north of Ireland aka northern Ireland and who has worked mostly in the Republic I can throw in my 2 cents on this thread drift. Ireland was unfortunately partitioned in 1921. Our country comprises of 2 states, 1. Republic of Ireland and 2. Northern Ireland. We have 1 rugby team but 2 football teams..confusing isn't it
. If some people call Ireland by its name in Irish, Eire, that's fine by me, it says so on my passport and I think it sounds cool..no diff to people calling Germany, Deutschland.
Now back to the real thread.. with the closure of Coventry across the water, I think it illustrates that PSO funding should be continued beyond 2011, despite all the new motorways/rail upgrades to promote regional development and foreign investment in Ireland. With the new €10 travel tax, a small slice of this revenue will easily fund PSO routes many times over!!
. If some people call Ireland by its name in Irish, Eire, that's fine by me, it says so on my passport and I think it sounds cool..no diff to people calling Germany, Deutschland.Now back to the real thread.. with the closure of Coventry across the water, I think it illustrates that PSO funding should be continued beyond 2011, despite all the new motorways/rail upgrades to promote regional development and foreign investment in Ireland. With the new €10 travel tax, a small slice of this revenue will easily fund PSO routes many times over!!
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I meant just to write about the airports but I feel partly responsible for this thread degenerating into a political squabble about the border since I was the person who listed all the airports North and South. I did so, not to make a political point, but to make a reality point. No airport on this island can operate in isolation from the others. Huge numbers from the North fly from Dublin, half of Derry's catchment area is in Donegal etc.
The border, without its passport control, etc, which now really exists only on maps and tax/benefit regimes, is irrelevant to flyers. Indeed, if you fly from Belfast to Cork or from Derry to Dublin you will not encounter passport control whereas you would frequently have a passport check while flying to and from Britain showing that this situation here is much more complex than just "Northern Ireland is part of the UK" or "The North is part of Ireland".
Indeed the reply that questioned whether Belfast and Derry airports should be included in the discussion of Irish airports misses a point: Edinburgh and Glasgow, for example, are undeniably in the UK but are also Scottish airports. Similiarly Belfast and Derry can be in the UK and also in the Irish airports forum.
I would not have listed a discussion of UK airports without including Derry and Belfast either. Personally I have always considered flights from Belfast and Derry whether to Britain or to other parts of Ireland as domestic. This does put Derry and Belfast in a special category as I do not regard flights from Dublin and Cork to Britain as domestic, but of course Northern Ireland is unique position with regard to Ireland and with regard to the UK.
Sorry for that, now on to my real point:
While I do not buy Ryanair's dubious statistics about how much this costs the Irish tourism industry, I do nevertheless agree with MOL that it should go and is a bad for the country. (Same for the UK APD). Further I think the PSOs are unsustainable in the current financial climate but I do agree that their removal would be devastating to certain airports. However the route development fund that ran several years ago in Northern Ireland was a huge success taking Northern Ireland from one international route ( see above comment about domestic routes 
) to I've lost count. In the long term a route development fund would be much more useful to any airport than a PSO.
The airport tax should go and so should the PSOs but they should be replaced by a route development fund. One mistake that should avoid being repeated is that Derry and Belfast City were not ready (due to their runway lengths) to make use of the route development fund and so the fund in its almost entirety was spent at Belfast International. A similar mistake south of the border would not assist the airports that currently rely on the PSOs. Any route development fund should therefore be divided and ring fenced for each airport and if an airport is not ready then the funds should be held for it until it is.
The border, without its passport control, etc, which now really exists only on maps and tax/benefit regimes, is irrelevant to flyers. Indeed, if you fly from Belfast to Cork or from Derry to Dublin you will not encounter passport control whereas you would frequently have a passport check while flying to and from Britain showing that this situation here is much more complex than just "Northern Ireland is part of the UK" or "The North is part of Ireland".
Indeed the reply that questioned whether Belfast and Derry airports should be included in the discussion of Irish airports misses a point: Edinburgh and Glasgow, for example, are undeniably in the UK but are also Scottish airports. Similiarly Belfast and Derry can be in the UK and also in the Irish airports forum.
I would not have listed a discussion of UK airports without including Derry and Belfast either. Personally I have always considered flights from Belfast and Derry whether to Britain or to other parts of Ireland as domestic. This does put Derry and Belfast in a special category as I do not regard flights from Dublin and Cork to Britain as domestic, but of course Northern Ireland is unique position with regard to Ireland and with regard to the UK.
Sorry for that, now on to my real point:
With the new €10 travel tax, a small slice of this revenue will easily fund PSO routes many times over!!
) to I've lost count. In the long term a route development fund would be much more useful to any airport than a PSO.The airport tax should go and so should the PSOs but they should be replaced by a route development fund. One mistake that should avoid being repeated is that Derry and Belfast City were not ready (due to their runway lengths) to make use of the route development fund and so the fund in its almost entirety was spent at Belfast International. A similar mistake south of the border would not assist the airports that currently rely on the PSOs. Any route development fund should therefore be divided and ring fenced for each airport and if an airport is not ready then the funds should be held for it until it is.
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CCR. Is the €10 travel tax to be ploughed back into the aviation industry - Support for Regional Airports, or is it a back door revenue exercise like the UK green tax?.
Well I have little time for FR: But at least they are consistent - They can't stand anyone else raising revenue,when BLK imposed the ADF - MOL up and left.
To be honest charges like that have so many pros and cons, it can be hard to figure the true effects and evaluate stats.
Originally Posted by Amelia Earhart
While I do not buy Ryanair's dubious statistics about how much this costs the Irish tourism industry, I do nevertheless agree with MOL that it should go and is a bad for the country.
To be honest charges like that have so many pros and cons, it can be hard to figure the true effects and evaluate stats.
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Unfortunately, the travel tax is just a lucrative revenue exercise.
I don't think there will be too much investment in airports in the current economic climate though it couldn't be a better time to get a quote from a builder to lengthen a runway or build some other infrastructure
I don't think there will be too much investment in airports in the current economic climate though it couldn't be a better time to get a quote from a builder to lengthen a runway or build some other infrastructure
Last edited by CCR; 10th Dec 2009 at 22:21. Reason: typo
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Yesterdays Budget will have some impact on regional airports.
Overall budget for regional airports will be down 13% to €23m in 2010 on top of 2009 cuts, mainly to the capital program.
http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/201...ook%202010.pdf
Operational subvention for regional airports is part of that bill, i believe PSO is seperate but no breakdown of spending is available. It would be far more transparent if the funding breakdown was published by the DOT rather than depending on ministers questions and local TDs press releases for detail.
Galway Airport is to receive €962,000 in operational subsidy this year according to this (rather rosy-hued) article quoting Éamon Ó Cuív:
Good news as Galway Airport receives major funding - Galway Advertiser - December 10, 2009.
Overall budget for regional airports will be down 13% to €23m in 2010 on top of 2009 cuts, mainly to the capital program.
http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/201...ook%202010.pdf
Operational subvention for regional airports is part of that bill, i believe PSO is seperate but no breakdown of spending is available. It would be far more transparent if the funding breakdown was published by the DOT rather than depending on ministers questions and local TDs press releases for detail.
Galway Airport is to receive €962,000 in operational subsidy this year according to this (rather rosy-hued) article quoting Éamon Ó Cuív:
Good news as Galway Airport receives major funding - Galway Advertiser - December 10, 2009.
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Yes it is good news for Galway, and now hopefully they will begin to reduce their massive management overhead and stabilise their cost base, while at the same time budget and plan for life without the PSO. As taxpayers funds are being applied to rescue the airport, the state should be looking closer at how the business is being run. There are opportunities for Galway, but do they have the intellectual capacity to tap into them?
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The likelihood of the Western Railway going north of Athenry is unlikely and northeast of Claremorris is nil. They upgraded to Ennis and rebuilt to Athenry on the cheap (witness the recent flooding on both sections and a planned 50mph operating speed). The taxpayer has been burned to the tune of E100m for a service which the bus will do faster and cheaper. I'm all for the best transportation tool for the job - this doesn't qualify.
SXL should be closed. With the money saved you could probably run a free non-stop bus service to NOC every 30 minutes down the 54km from the town centre to NOC, not a train that would take twice as long and dump you 5km from the airport.
If the government wanted to give support to the regionals the EU couldn't claim was state aid, they could close Baldonnel and move most operations west, with DUB hosting political and police support operations. SNN is practically a US airbase as it is...
SXL should be closed. With the money saved you could probably run a free non-stop bus service to NOC every 30 minutes down the 54km from the town centre to NOC, not a train that would take twice as long and dump you 5km from the airport.
If the government wanted to give support to the regionals the EU couldn't claim was state aid, they could close Baldonnel and move most operations west, with DUB hosting political and police support operations. SNN is practically a US airbase as it is...
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hi lads, first post here.
First thing I wana say is I don't see why people are argueing over the name of Ireland, or of 3 particular airports being included in a list of 'Irish' airports. At the end of the day, the 6 counties may be part of the UK, but as obvious as that is to some people on here who are clearly Unionist in outlook, its not so obvious to those people that the 6 counties is also part of the island of Ireland, and as such is dependent on custom from the South. So whether Unionist posters on here like it or not the border is irrelevant, as people commute across the border to use Belfast and Derry airports, and visa versa. So it makes more sense for the 3 airports in the 6 counties to be on a list of Irish airports, than to be coupled with airports on another island.
And while these same posters are quick to point out that the North "isn't part of Ireland", they're more than happy to accept Southern taxpayers money so airports in the North can expand their facilties, as well as build the roads to these airports.
Anyway onto the actual topic being discussed. Its obvious that the PSO scheme is gonna be the target of the 2010 budget as current contracts with Aer Arann and Ryanair expire in 2011, but I can't see all PSO routes getting the axe. Personally I think the Donegal, Sligo and Galway PSO routes should be axed.
Ideally, Galway should keep it's PSO route and Knock have it's axed, and Galway should be receiving the structural investment that Knock has received over the past few years. But with government capital investment being frozen, Galway won't be able to expand for years. But even with expanded facilities, what Galway really needs is an extended runway as thats whats holding it back, but that won't happen. So for now, Knock is the main international airport of the West and thats where the focus of government investment in the West should be.
Donegal and Sligo then shouldn't be any more than flying clubs. The only reason Donegal has flights to Prestwick is because of the PSO, which is effectively subsidising the route. Once the PSO is axed, Aer Arann will pull the Prestwick route, just like they did in Kerry with Manchester. There is no reason why the Northwest should have 2 PSO routes, to airports that are barely miles apart. People in Donegal should just cross the border and fly to Dublin from Derry, and Ryanair already serve Prestwick from Derry so there'll still be that route. So the government should axe the Donegal PSO and just have the PSO to Derry which will serve the NW grand.
And as for Sligo, Aer Arann couldn't even fill an ATR 42 on the Manchester route in the good times(even with the seat restriction!), and that route was axed long before the recession. And given how close Sligo is to Knock, theres no reason why Sligo should have it's own PSO route. And given residents opposition to expanding the airport, not just so more routes could be started but because of safety, then even more reason why the government should axe the PSO route there.
So that just leaves the PSO routes to Kerry, Knock and Derry which sould be kept as they provide adequate access from the South, West and North to the capital.
As for the airports themselves, the government really need to go back to the drawing board with their aviation policy and in the same way they've established gateways with the national spatial strategy, they should apply this to aviation policy and invest in airports that will act as a gateway, and not just to the benefit of local residents so as to get votes for local TDs and councillers.
First thing I wana say is I don't see why people are argueing over the name of Ireland, or of 3 particular airports being included in a list of 'Irish' airports. At the end of the day, the 6 counties may be part of the UK, but as obvious as that is to some people on here who are clearly Unionist in outlook, its not so obvious to those people that the 6 counties is also part of the island of Ireland, and as such is dependent on custom from the South. So whether Unionist posters on here like it or not the border is irrelevant, as people commute across the border to use Belfast and Derry airports, and visa versa. So it makes more sense for the 3 airports in the 6 counties to be on a list of Irish airports, than to be coupled with airports on another island.
And while these same posters are quick to point out that the North "isn't part of Ireland", they're more than happy to accept Southern taxpayers money so airports in the North can expand their facilties, as well as build the roads to these airports.
Anyway onto the actual topic being discussed. Its obvious that the PSO scheme is gonna be the target of the 2010 budget as current contracts with Aer Arann and Ryanair expire in 2011, but I can't see all PSO routes getting the axe. Personally I think the Donegal, Sligo and Galway PSO routes should be axed.
Ideally, Galway should keep it's PSO route and Knock have it's axed, and Galway should be receiving the structural investment that Knock has received over the past few years. But with government capital investment being frozen, Galway won't be able to expand for years. But even with expanded facilities, what Galway really needs is an extended runway as thats whats holding it back, but that won't happen. So for now, Knock is the main international airport of the West and thats where the focus of government investment in the West should be.
Donegal and Sligo then shouldn't be any more than flying clubs. The only reason Donegal has flights to Prestwick is because of the PSO, which is effectively subsidising the route. Once the PSO is axed, Aer Arann will pull the Prestwick route, just like they did in Kerry with Manchester. There is no reason why the Northwest should have 2 PSO routes, to airports that are barely miles apart. People in Donegal should just cross the border and fly to Dublin from Derry, and Ryanair already serve Prestwick from Derry so there'll still be that route. So the government should axe the Donegal PSO and just have the PSO to Derry which will serve the NW grand.
And as for Sligo, Aer Arann couldn't even fill an ATR 42 on the Manchester route in the good times(even with the seat restriction!), and that route was axed long before the recession. And given how close Sligo is to Knock, theres no reason why Sligo should have it's own PSO route. And given residents opposition to expanding the airport, not just so more routes could be started but because of safety, then even more reason why the government should axe the PSO route there.
So that just leaves the PSO routes to Kerry, Knock and Derry which sould be kept as they provide adequate access from the South, West and North to the capital.
As for the airports themselves, the government really need to go back to the drawing board with their aviation policy and in the same way they've established gateways with the national spatial strategy, they should apply this to aviation policy and invest in airports that will act as a gateway, and not just to the benefit of local residents so as to get votes for local TDs and councillers.
