Could British Airways really go bust or not?
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: The Deep South (Sussex)
Posts: 783
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my working life the companies I worked for went bust on three occasions. I wouldn't wish it on anyone!
Suddenly, the offices that had been full of activity were empty and the aircraft were all close parked on every bit of tarmac. After a few months out of work many of us were prepared to work for the equivalent of our social security payments just to get back into the job.
Do not think that this cannot happen to BA.
A financial point will come, if the cabin staff and groundstaff do not accept nominal pay cuts..or unbelievably call for strike action...that it will be compulsory for the Board to place the company into administration.
"BA 2010" will then be started with everyone having to interview for the new jobs at the new "take it or leave it" rates. The days of the senior cabin crew earning pilot's pay will then be over. The payment of anything other than salary and basic allowances for the pilots will have gone.
My guess is that February 2010 will be the cruch time.
Suddenly, the offices that had been full of activity were empty and the aircraft were all close parked on every bit of tarmac. After a few months out of work many of us were prepared to work for the equivalent of our social security payments just to get back into the job.
Do not think that this cannot happen to BA.
A financial point will come, if the cabin staff and groundstaff do not accept nominal pay cuts..or unbelievably call for strike action...that it will be compulsory for the Board to place the company into administration.
"BA 2010" will then be started with everyone having to interview for the new jobs at the new "take it or leave it" rates. The days of the senior cabin crew earning pilot's pay will then be over. The payment of anything other than salary and basic allowances for the pilots will have gone.
My guess is that February 2010 will be the cruch time.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Age: 80
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What baffles me about the adverse criticism of BA that I read on this website as well as others is why do people fly with BA more than once if they are so awful? Perhaps it is because BA is the only one to serve the destination you require. If so, ask yourself why they provide a service to an unpopular destination. If it was profitable, would not the bearded wonder have cherry picked it long ago? The other answer is that the adverse critics are either full time miserable gits or the employees of another airline. For those of you who are professional airline employees, it is probably because you failed to get in or know you never would, i.e plain jealous. Perhaps you work for Ryanair!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Too far from the equator
Posts: 745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok , straight up , I am an ex BA captain , left 5 years ago after 10 years service , because I was 55 and had to retire ( at the time - not now of course ) left with the proverbial bitter/sweet taste that is BA . Infuriating ( TOO BIG etc ) but some of the greatest people I ever worked with , so also very enjoyable . Right , that is off my chest ,now...
I left in 2004 with a salary of 55k so the ' average 'of 107 k is actually the top increment of 24+ years service , and BA are trying to get these elite few to take early retirement - smart move.
As usual , the press / Branson , whatever , distort the facts - quite normal with their 'tall poppy' syndrome . RB will one day be hated as much as GB by the British public - just read some of the blogs about Virgin Rail. But he will not care - he will win. He knows Brits are gullible.
He has fed off the most profitable routes available and never pioneered a route out of UK (apart from Vegas which explains a lot ) and has only ever provided a service to the fithy rich and vulgar to their fleshpots. Never actually tried to provide a service to the British people , like trying to serve a cooked breakfast to 144 peeps between MAN and LGW with about 20 minutes in the cruise , probably failing to perfect it , but trying nonetheless.
There ARE 2 weaknesses with BA and ONE is the amount the CC are paid without consistency in their performance , and TWO , the number of 'Middle Management ' who do not give a toss .
You can read every day about the aggrieved passengers on BA , but if you dig deep you can also find millions of contented ones , who paid a pretty fair price ( in Economy ) , checked in at the now-wonderful T5 , had an on-time flight to their destination wherever in the world , and have no axe to grind , but we never hear from the ones who get what they paid for - do we ,
?
Sure , it does go wrong , and Heathrow can be bloody frustrating ( to passengers too ! ) but if BA disappeared tomorrow it would not be long before the public got really pissed off .
Virgin Airways ? Perish the thought , and I speak for millions.
I left in 2004 with a salary of 55k so the ' average 'of 107 k is actually the top increment of 24+ years service , and BA are trying to get these elite few to take early retirement - smart move.
As usual , the press / Branson , whatever , distort the facts - quite normal with their 'tall poppy' syndrome . RB will one day be hated as much as GB by the British public - just read some of the blogs about Virgin Rail. But he will not care - he will win. He knows Brits are gullible.
He has fed off the most profitable routes available and never pioneered a route out of UK (apart from Vegas which explains a lot ) and has only ever provided a service to the fithy rich and vulgar to their fleshpots. Never actually tried to provide a service to the British people , like trying to serve a cooked breakfast to 144 peeps between MAN and LGW with about 20 minutes in the cruise , probably failing to perfect it , but trying nonetheless.
There ARE 2 weaknesses with BA and ONE is the amount the CC are paid without consistency in their performance , and TWO , the number of 'Middle Management ' who do not give a toss .
You can read every day about the aggrieved passengers on BA , but if you dig deep you can also find millions of contented ones , who paid a pretty fair price ( in Economy ) , checked in at the now-wonderful T5 , had an on-time flight to their destination wherever in the world , and have no axe to grind , but we never hear from the ones who get what they paid for - do we ,
?
Sure , it does go wrong , and Heathrow can be bloody frustrating ( to passengers too ! ) but if BA disappeared tomorrow it would not be long before the public got really pissed off .
Virgin Airways ? Perish the thought , and I speak for millions.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 562
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but if BA disappeared tomorrow it would not be long before the public got really pissed off
A long haul operator out of Heathrow is what they should aim for now - nothing more, nothing less . . . . .
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All this talk about whether BA will survive...or not.
I expect it will, however, it will need to trim down considerably, the pilots will more than likely lose much if their beloved pensions, the CC, if they persist in their hard-headed ways, will be dismissed for cause and new ones hired...and the eventual outcome will be quite a profitable operation, serving fewer destinations.
Those folks who are demanding better conditions at FR had better take heed, if BA can strong-arm their employees to lesser conditions, FR employees stand absolutely no chance whatsoever of improving theirs.
In both cases, there are winners and losers.
Winners...management, shareholders, customers.
Losers...employees and suppliers.
Slim and trim is the watchword of todays airline industry.
Fat and overstuffed...dead as a doornail.
Like it or not.
I expect it will, however, it will need to trim down considerably, the pilots will more than likely lose much if their beloved pensions, the CC, if they persist in their hard-headed ways, will be dismissed for cause and new ones hired...and the eventual outcome will be quite a profitable operation, serving fewer destinations.
Those folks who are demanding better conditions at FR had better take heed, if BA can strong-arm their employees to lesser conditions, FR employees stand absolutely no chance whatsoever of improving theirs.
In both cases, there are winners and losers.
Winners...management, shareholders, customers.
Losers...employees and suppliers.
Slim and trim is the watchword of todays airline industry.
Fat and overstuffed...dead as a doornail.
Like it or not.
It's time to realise that giving your all to a dozen or so pampered pax up front and subsidising that cr@p at the expense of 200 or more crammed cattle-like in the back is no longer acceptable to anyone.
Have you ever read of the lifestyle enjoyed in the Kremlin in the 1930s or, indeed, studied the behaviour of any socialist in a position of authority?
Now Here Is a Laugh!
has only ever provided a service to the fithy rich and vulgar to their fleshpots
I know things change over time but Lordy fellow....the Virgin crews I rode out of Lagos were very good news! Far better than the BA!
kotakota,
Well done getting a command within 10 years - took me 18, but I was always crap
What a good summary.
I have worked for several outfits but still keep an eye on BA. There are times when I could walk into the CE's office (whoever he may be at the time) and shake him. I want to see BA succeed. I was on secondment to another outfit in the eighties when King & Marshall turned the passenger appeal around from zero to hero. We heard from our premium pax (in my other airline) and K&M did a great job. (Would've hated to work directly for old King but they were an effective team).
Is Willie posturing as the CC think? I don't know but my gut feeling is that he is not. What BASSA has to consider is: "Will the gumint bail BA out or not?"
Who knows? (Been done before in a cowboy film
)
Well done getting a command within 10 years - took me 18, but I was always crap
What a good summary.
I have worked for several outfits but still keep an eye on BA. There are times when I could walk into the CE's office (whoever he may be at the time) and shake him. I want to see BA succeed. I was on secondment to another outfit in the eighties when King & Marshall turned the passenger appeal around from zero to hero. We heard from our premium pax (in my other airline) and K&M did a great job. (Would've hated to work directly for old King but they were an effective team).
Is Willie posturing as the CC think? I don't know but my gut feeling is that he is not. What BASSA has to consider is: "Will the gumint bail BA out or not?"
Who knows? (Been done before in a cowboy film
)
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: London Under EGLL(LHR) 27R ILS
Age: 31
Posts: 500
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem I think with BA personally is there loosing money in the Premium side of things, thats were the dosh is made, I recently flew to Frankfurt, 757 was packed to the brim in economy and the return on the A319 was full BUT the Premium section was almost fully empty.
BA will if they cant help it go bust, but the govement will obviously help them out of it, Its the National Carrier and If someone has the figures its like a 50+% of Heathrows movements and that makes £billions GBP for the economy per year.
BA will if they cant help it go bust, but the govement will obviously help them out of it, Its the National Carrier and If someone has the figures its like a 50+% of Heathrows movements and that makes £billions GBP for the economy per year.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its the National Carrier
There's no such thing anymore actually. BA have the pension deficit from Hell and a cost base on cabin crew coupled with a militancy rare in modern Britain that F***s the passenger over a lot when things go wrong. I dated a BASSA apologist once, it was quite revealing.
If BASSA strike for a prolonged period, BA may fall, and UK aviation will be all the poorer for it, for I can't see a British airline ever serving such a network again starting from scratch, certainly not Virgin.
Leahman Brothers and GEC fell, who knows who may be next. I personally think they'll be taking the new B777-300ERs as planned, and then the B787s and A380s.
In short the answer is Yes they can the likelihood is NOT as there would be some type of Assistance offered which would ensure it doesn't happen.
Based on the media article 40% of the Premium passengers were bankers who aren't going to be flying anywhere for a while. There isn't another group who can easily fill that gap in the medium and I doubt in the long term at the prices companies were willing to pay. There goes a huge cash influx.
Ultimately it will come down to the amount of cash they posess as there is a figure reached when bankers start to get worried and suppliers reduce their credit from 7-8 weeks down to 1 week.
9/11 changed the marketplace and while post 9/11 the industry boomed there was a clear warning that the slowdown for 1 year after that day was the time to look at what you were doing and slim down accordingly to match revenue and costs.
I believe in 10 years time people will look at the Salaries people were on now and wish they could earn that amount.
Based on the media article 40% of the Premium passengers were bankers who aren't going to be flying anywhere for a while. There isn't another group who can easily fill that gap in the medium and I doubt in the long term at the prices companies were willing to pay. There goes a huge cash influx.
Ultimately it will come down to the amount of cash they posess as there is a figure reached when bankers start to get worried and suppliers reduce their credit from 7-8 weeks down to 1 week.
9/11 changed the marketplace and while post 9/11 the industry boomed there was a clear warning that the slowdown for 1 year after that day was the time to look at what you were doing and slim down accordingly to match revenue and costs.
I believe in 10 years time people will look at the Salaries people were on now and wish they could earn that amount.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Severely doubt it
As an ex-BA staffer now working as flight deck in the loco sector I have to say I find this thread unrealistic and depressing. I don't think BA will go bust, I do think their problems are no different to KLM, Lufty etc right now and they're still one of the very few global supercarriers in terms of routes, fleets, terms and conditions, training, service excellence and capacity to innovate. The current issues will only lead to the emergence of a stronger and fitter BA and that is no bad thing. However I do believe BA has made some very bad business decisions at a strategic level in recent years.
1. Its focus on high yield transatlantic is in my estimation flawed. BA always needed to play in all market sectors.
2. The sale of GO - I opposed it at the time and I oppose it now. BA had the makings of a serious low cost operation there and could have remained dominant and profitable on shorthaul via GO. They also wouldn't have had to renegotiate mainline employment contracts if they had permitted Go to gradually become BA shorthaul.
3. They continually failed to identify opportunities to identify into new business areas to boost revenue - e.g. The wheel. I believe at one time BA were making £50m a year profit from operating this and generating millions more in brand impact. I also recall at one time they had requests from around a dozen cities worldwide who also wanted their own version. 10x£50 million is £500m profit plus huge global brand impact, but the management said it wasn't core activity and hence it was ditched.
Flying into Manchester today where my Father was BA cabin crew in the seventies brings home the appalling lack of BA tail fins there now compared to then. BA should never have abandoned the regions and adopted a fortress LHR mentality. If they hadn't allowed it to happen, the world and indeed our profession and industry wouldn't have to suffer the likes of Michael O'Dreary and his appalling airline.
There are few companies in Britain that can lay claim to being world leaders - BA, BAe and Roll Royce are the only ones we have in aviation, I wish them and their staff well despite now working for a rival airline.
Desk-pilot
1. Its focus on high yield transatlantic is in my estimation flawed. BA always needed to play in all market sectors.
2. The sale of GO - I opposed it at the time and I oppose it now. BA had the makings of a serious low cost operation there and could have remained dominant and profitable on shorthaul via GO. They also wouldn't have had to renegotiate mainline employment contracts if they had permitted Go to gradually become BA shorthaul.
3. They continually failed to identify opportunities to identify into new business areas to boost revenue - e.g. The wheel. I believe at one time BA were making £50m a year profit from operating this and generating millions more in brand impact. I also recall at one time they had requests from around a dozen cities worldwide who also wanted their own version. 10x£50 million is £500m profit plus huge global brand impact, but the management said it wasn't core activity and hence it was ditched.
Flying into Manchester today where my Father was BA cabin crew in the seventies brings home the appalling lack of BA tail fins there now compared to then. BA should never have abandoned the regions and adopted a fortress LHR mentality. If they hadn't allowed it to happen, the world and indeed our profession and industry wouldn't have to suffer the likes of Michael O'Dreary and his appalling airline.
There are few companies in Britain that can lay claim to being world leaders - BA, BAe and Roll Royce are the only ones we have in aviation, I wish them and their staff well despite now working for a rival airline.
Desk-pilot
Last edited by Desk-pilot; 22nd Jun 2009 at 07:05.
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oop North
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To the staff at the coal face (pilots, CC, check-in, customer service) I think you do a great job. You need to take it from a frequent traveller like me who can benchmark airlines in terms of price/value/service.
I've flown with most and like I've already said, I'll go BA any day.
I've flown with most and like I've already said, I'll go BA any day.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Larne, UK
Posts: 990
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i'd be very disappointed if BA went bust, and i hope to **** (< insert creative word where the *s are..) that the government would step in, if they can bail banks out then they can bail out an airline that represents Britain.
A reality check please. Yes anything is possible as history has showed, however, BA is a strong company and this is only a glitch. Do all airlines need to improve their standards, yes. The problem with airlines such as BA who make huge profits when times are good, the attention to detail is forgotten and they get sloppy - yet again large companies do not learn lessons from past recessions. (where did the previous years £750 million profit go?)
As for Virgin, they do a good job, offer a slightly different service and keep BA 'honest'. Without them do you think the standard and service on long haul services would have improved? As for Virgins profits, whichever way you look at it, at least they made a profit through identifying problems ahead and did something about it.
As for wild rumours (Virgin making 10 million loss per month) back up what you write. Don't just pick a number for shock sake, it doesn't help anyone.
We're being told there are the signs of 'green shoot' in the economy. Hopefully all out there will survive and emerge stronger - lets not talk ourselves into a P45
As for Virgin, they do a good job, offer a slightly different service and keep BA 'honest'. Without them do you think the standard and service on long haul services would have improved? As for Virgins profits, whichever way you look at it, at least they made a profit through identifying problems ahead and did something about it.
As for wild rumours (Virgin making 10 million loss per month) back up what you write. Don't just pick a number for shock sake, it doesn't help anyone.
We're being told there are the signs of 'green shoot' in the economy. Hopefully all out there will survive and emerge stronger - lets not talk ourselves into a P45
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Dublin
Posts: 1,806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As for Virgin, they do a good job, offer a slightly different service and keep BA 'honest'. Without them do you think the standard and service on long haul services would have improved? As for Virgins profits, whichever way you look at it, at least they made a profit through identifying problems ahead and did something about it.
Virgin compete on a very limited number of routes, indeed they are key routes and yes they compete with BA directly more then any other single carrier but BA still has a huge number of high profile and high standard competitors worldwide which it must fight against! I think these airlines have as much influence on BA's standards as any other!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As for Virgin, they do a good job, offer a slightly different service and keep BA 'honest'. Without them do you think the standard and service on long haul services would have improved? As for Virgins profits, whichever way you look at it, at least they made a profit through identifying problems ahead and did something about it.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Paddy
No they won't
Less than nearly all other FTSE 100 companies.
Which will operate routes for a lower cost than the current fleet (747/767)
We need to be offering equivalent or better product to our customers. If BA stands still it is really going backwards.
Possibly, lets hope it is an improvment
No it's not
It seems a large bank has bought a number of seats on each service making it a viable route.
I think alot of your info is from BASSA and therefore fundamentally flawed, no matter how long your economics studies took!
Our management are still going to receive bonuses,
our CEO is still totally over payed
we are still planning on introducing brand new longhaul aircraft
we are still going to spend a fortune refitting all the First Class cabins
we are spending a fortune at present replacing a faulty inflight retail machine which we spent a fortune on a few years ago
money is still being pumped into OpenSkies which is clearly failing in its promises
BA is still intend on launching its A318 LCY-JFK service despite the market totally drying up etc etc etc!
I think alot of your info is from BASSA and therefore fundamentally flawed, no matter how long your economics studies took!
Plumbum Pendular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Avionics Bay
Age: 55
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sir Richard Branson has rubbed salt in British Airways’ wounds by declaring BA practically worthless, and urging the government to resist any attempts to bail it out.
Branson’s comments will incense BA management, which this week will hold vital talks with cabin crew and ground staff over pay cuts, lay-offs and changes to working conditions aimed at saving £100m a year.
Branson’s comments will incense BA management, which this week will hold vital talks with cabin crew and ground staff over pay cuts, lay-offs and changes to working conditions aimed at saving £100m a year.
If BA went bust how many people would this effect? Not just employees but suppliers as well?
These so called Entrepreneurs have little sympathy for the ordinary worker and are only concerned about feeding their own pockets and egos.
Now I am not saying that Governments should continually bail out Companies that are failing, but please stop the hatred of other businesses as they employ ordinary people!
Plumbum Pendular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Avionics Bay
Age: 55
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an example, I saw something like "Goodbye SkyEurope" written on the side of a FR aeroplane the other day.
I think that is in really bad taste and really is Machiavellian!
I think that is in really bad taste and really is Machiavellian!