OXFORD/KIDLINGTON
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Oxford Airport does not have the feel of an airport but of a general aviation airfield. Passengers have to pass though the main security gate then drive on restricted access roads to get to the terminal.
Not sure friends and family meeting passengers would even be allowed through to the terminal.
Not sure friends and family meeting passengers would even be allowed through to the terminal.
What about putting a new passenger terminal on the land to the north-west of the runway, with direct access from the A44? Wouldn't interfere with existing GA activities, plenty of space for a whopping car park, billboards etc.
Oh hang on, I appear to dashed off into the realms of fantasy again.
Oh hang on, I appear to dashed off into the realms of fantasy again.
Last edited by dead_pan; 22nd Mar 2013 at 10:01.
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Phileus Fogg, whilst I generally respect your posts and sarcasm is best appreciated in this country, I wonder if there was any actual constructive content in your last post at all.
I would point out that nobody has suggested a train station is to be built at the airport, so don't worry yourself about warning everybody off. I would also point out that there is a more strict definition of a palace than there is of an airport, and should you so desire to meet that definition (50 rooms or more from memory?), you would be welcome to re-name your abode.
Lastly, I feel it is important to suggest that Oxford has been in this "airport as opposed to aerodrome" game for such a short period of time, it's rather surprising they have come as far as they have. It is true that other airports in the country are trying to do a similar thing to Oxford, and that there may be an argument to be made for Oxford sticking with the business traffic for which it is well suited. But, I don't think that it's a fair comparison to suggest that the chances of success at taking scheduled movements are negligible. As I have said before in this thread, I think it's important to remember that this is a new venture and to be patient in assessing the outcome.
Many people have picked up on the unusual feel of the airport, with the little security hut and they are right, but perhaps as time goes on, and the operation at Oxford becomes more settled into this new role, the investment will be proven to be viable, and such issues may be dealt with?
It is my view that anybody, presenting any firm opinion on the success of lack there of, for this airport is probably a little more certain than circumstances currently allow for.
Rant over, if rant it came across as
I would point out that nobody has suggested a train station is to be built at the airport, so don't worry yourself about warning everybody off. I would also point out that there is a more strict definition of a palace than there is of an airport, and should you so desire to meet that definition (50 rooms or more from memory?), you would be welcome to re-name your abode.
Lastly, I feel it is important to suggest that Oxford has been in this "airport as opposed to aerodrome" game for such a short period of time, it's rather surprising they have come as far as they have. It is true that other airports in the country are trying to do a similar thing to Oxford, and that there may be an argument to be made for Oxford sticking with the business traffic for which it is well suited. But, I don't think that it's a fair comparison to suggest that the chances of success at taking scheduled movements are negligible. As I have said before in this thread, I think it's important to remember that this is a new venture and to be patient in assessing the outcome.
Many people have picked up on the unusual feel of the airport, with the little security hut and they are right, but perhaps as time goes on, and the operation at Oxford becomes more settled into this new role, the investment will be proven to be viable, and such issues may be dealt with?
It is my view that anybody, presenting any firm opinion on the success of lack there of, for this airport is probably a little more certain than circumstances currently allow for.
Rant over, if rant it came across as
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Phil.
Members were talking about an airport rail link, there is no denying that!
In the good ol' days UK regional operators would operate such aircraft types as DHC6's, EMB110's, Do228's, Do328's, SD330's, SD360's, Jetstreams or similar, all in the 18 seats to 36 seats range and such an airfield/airport might find itself serviced by an 18 seat (ish) aircraft.
And one operator I worked for in a previous life could, of a weekend, fill 44 seater aircraft from all sorts of regional airports to/from the Channel Islands.
However Oxford does find itself serviced by an 18 (ish) seater aircraft and it does find itself serving the Channel Islands ... and it can't even make that work, Oxford can't even, regularly, fill 18 (ish) seats to/from the Channel Islands!
And the comes along a (third world!) F50 operator ... If there is money to be made on such routes in/out of Oxford then why haven't the likes of Manx2 jumped on it with their modestly sized aircraft?
Because there's insufficient market to be had in/out of Oxford, that's why!
And sorry if my posts disappoint, that I don't share the level of enthusiasm of aircraft enthusiasts, but 50 seater operations in/out of Oxford ... Well it's just ridiculous.
And think about this one ... Had there not been a WWII and/or a Cold War would UK have as many airports as it does have?
Members were talking about an airport rail link, there is no denying that!
In the good ol' days UK regional operators would operate such aircraft types as DHC6's, EMB110's, Do228's, Do328's, SD330's, SD360's, Jetstreams or similar, all in the 18 seats to 36 seats range and such an airfield/airport might find itself serviced by an 18 seat (ish) aircraft.
And one operator I worked for in a previous life could, of a weekend, fill 44 seater aircraft from all sorts of regional airports to/from the Channel Islands.
However Oxford does find itself serviced by an 18 (ish) seater aircraft and it does find itself serving the Channel Islands ... and it can't even make that work, Oxford can't even, regularly, fill 18 (ish) seats to/from the Channel Islands!
And the comes along a (third world!) F50 operator ... If there is money to be made on such routes in/out of Oxford then why haven't the likes of Manx2 jumped on it with their modestly sized aircraft?
Because there's insufficient market to be had in/out of Oxford, that's why!
And sorry if my posts disappoint, that I don't share the level of enthusiasm of aircraft enthusiasts, but 50 seater operations in/out of Oxford ... Well it's just ridiculous.
And think about this one ... Had there not been a WWII and/or a Cold War would UK have as many airports as it does have?
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station at Kidlington
As for a railway station at or near Kidlington, it's very unlikely until and unless the airport becomes a lot busier.
Teesside has a station, imaginatively named "Teesside Airport". It's about 0.3 mi. from the terminal, and on a line that links Middlesbrough in one direction and Darlington in the other, but pax numbers do not warrant it being reopened, even before 2009 when the (BD) MME-LHR service was still running.
Quote: "And think about this one ... Had there not been a WWII and/or a Cold War would UK have as many airports as it does have?"
Good point! Probably not, but since we have the infrastructure, along with congested roads and expensive and crowded railways, let's put it to good use, and enhance the domestic air network.
Teesside has a station, imaginatively named "Teesside Airport". It's about 0.3 mi. from the terminal, and on a line that links Middlesbrough in one direction and Darlington in the other, but pax numbers do not warrant it being reopened, even before 2009 when the (BD) MME-LHR service was still running.
Quote: "And think about this one ... Had there not been a WWII and/or a Cold War would UK have as many airports as it does have?"
Good point! Probably not, but since we have the infrastructure, along with congested roads and expensive and crowded railways, let's put it to good use, and enhance the domestic air network.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 25th Mar 2013 at 14:40.
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Station at Kidlington
With reference to the station at Teesside Airport being closed it has remained open, albeit with a summer Sunday service of one train each way, presumably this being cheaper than all the legalities of closure. According to Wikipedia 'with 18 passenger entries and exits between April 2010 and March 2011 Teesside Airport is the least used station in Great Britain'. Whilst the airport is DTV Airport the station is Tees-side Airport (with the hyphen) on the National Rail website!
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Perhaps though in future as the roafs become ever motf congested and maybe even tolled, People will want to use a more local airport or rail station.
Perhaps smaller air like Oxford could serve as feeder airports. Taking smaller aircraft ( with runway and other improvements ) such as the A319. . A link to Hs2 and Heathrow
Perhaps smaller air like Oxford could serve as feeder airports. Taking smaller aircraft ( with runway and other improvements ) such as the A319. . A link to Hs2 and Heathrow
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A recent reference/comparison was made with Bristol/Lulsgate.
Well BRS's catchment area runs thru South Wales, up to around Gloucester, across to Swindon then down towards EXT and all the way down to Lands End and beyond.
All these people trekking up from Cornwall and Devon, LHR is a tiring drive away, LGW and STN and LTN etc. even worse and unless they dare to venture driving along the A303 they're all going to be driving along the M5 past BRS, the first 'realistic' international airport they pass by and 2 hours nearer to home than LHR, BRS has a mega catchment area.
On the other hand Kidlington is sandwiched between LHR, LTN, BHX and BRS not to mention others such as Gloucester, anything more than a 30 minute drive from Kidligton then far more convenient to drive to one of t'others which will offer better services, schedules etc.
UK is never going to have wall to wall airports, it doesn't need wall to wall airports, Gloucester, Kidlington and Coventry are just three trying to develop, they're all so close to each other and other airports also it simply isn't going to happen.
Well BRS's catchment area runs thru South Wales, up to around Gloucester, across to Swindon then down towards EXT and all the way down to Lands End and beyond.
All these people trekking up from Cornwall and Devon, LHR is a tiring drive away, LGW and STN and LTN etc. even worse and unless they dare to venture driving along the A303 they're all going to be driving along the M5 past BRS, the first 'realistic' international airport they pass by and 2 hours nearer to home than LHR, BRS has a mega catchment area.
On the other hand Kidlington is sandwiched between LHR, LTN, BHX and BRS not to mention others such as Gloucester, anything more than a 30 minute drive from Kidligton then far more convenient to drive to one of t'others which will offer better services, schedules etc.
UK is never going to have wall to wall airports, it doesn't need wall to wall airports, Gloucester, Kidlington and Coventry are just three trying to develop, they're all so close to each other and other airports also it simply isn't going to happen.
I spend a fair bit of time trying to estimate the feasibility of air services between city pairs. One of the first things to establish is the population contained within the natural catchments of both airports concerned. The demographics of those populations are also important.
As OXF is fairly central within the county of Oxfordshire it's probably reasonable to say that the county's population roughly forms its natural catchment, this being 635,000 souls with Oxford comprising 152,000 of that number. I haven't looked at the demographics but I would guess that per capita income is above the national average and that the professions rank highly among the employment figures.
Taking the above into account I would think that the potential may exist for an OXF-EDI double daily air service. One of the biggest hurdles is making the potential market in Oxfordshire aware that such a service is being launched and one of the first questions I ask any airport with similar ambitions is "How much are you prepared to spend in the first 12 months on marketing/promotion of the service?". Perhaps in this particular case the answer was "Not much" if reports of poor marketing are correct.
The above thoughts certainly aren't a detailed analysis of the potential for success, and I haven't even mentioned the type of equipment the route might need to be successful, but I wouldn't dismiss its possibilities out of hand as some posting here seem so keen to do.
As OXF is fairly central within the county of Oxfordshire it's probably reasonable to say that the county's population roughly forms its natural catchment, this being 635,000 souls with Oxford comprising 152,000 of that number. I haven't looked at the demographics but I would guess that per capita income is above the national average and that the professions rank highly among the employment figures.
Taking the above into account I would think that the potential may exist for an OXF-EDI double daily air service. One of the biggest hurdles is making the potential market in Oxfordshire aware that such a service is being launched and one of the first questions I ask any airport with similar ambitions is "How much are you prepared to spend in the first 12 months on marketing/promotion of the service?". Perhaps in this particular case the answer was "Not much" if reports of poor marketing are correct.
The above thoughts certainly aren't a detailed analysis of the potential for success, and I haven't even mentioned the type of equipment the route might need to be successful, but I wouldn't dismiss its possibilities out of hand as some posting here seem so keen to do.
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I can't see what the problem is - the runway is exactly the same as LCY and now they've got all the boring stuff sorted - RFF, ILS, Security etc.
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Quote: "With reference to the station at Teesside Airport being closed it has remained open, albeit with a summer Sunday service of one train each way, presumably this being cheaper than all the legalities of closure. According to Wikipedia 'with 18 passenger entries and exits between April 2010 and March 2011 Teesside Airport is the least used station in Great Britain'. Whilst the airport is DTV Airport the station is Tees-side Airport (with the hyphen) on the National Rail website!"
Interesting, believe that's what is technically known as a "Parliamentary" train. However, even if the station is de jure open for one train/week, it is de facto closed, because all but one of the trains don't stop there. That makes it worse than useless as an airport station.
Quote: "On the other hand Kidlington is sandwiched between LHR, LTN, BHX and BRS not to mention others such as Gloucester, anything more than a 30 minute drive from Kidligton then far more convenient to drive to one of t'others which will offer better services, schedules etc."
In the unlikely event of small scale operations or a LCY-style set up at NHT, would OXF survive? Could the two co-exist?
Interesting, believe that's what is technically known as a "Parliamentary" train. However, even if the station is de jure open for one train/week, it is de facto closed, because all but one of the trains don't stop there. That makes it worse than useless as an airport station.
Quote: "On the other hand Kidlington is sandwiched between LHR, LTN, BHX and BRS not to mention others such as Gloucester, anything more than a 30 minute drive from Kidligton then far more convenient to drive to one of t'others which will offer better services, schedules etc."
In the unlikely event of small scale operations or a LCY-style set up at NHT, would OXF survive? Could the two co-exist?
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Quote: "Just interested, would it be possible for Joe Public to buy a ticket for that ONE service...."
That's a good point! One thing is certain....it won't be a return ticket.
That's a good point! One thing is certain....it won't be a return ticket.
At the risk of straying very much off topic, the parliamentary train in question calls at the airport only in 1 direction and only on a Sunday at 1219. The last preceding flight to arrive lands about 0930. The first flight after midday departs at 1725. Thus in the best scenario, one either has to wait almost 3 hours after landing before catching an onward train, or one has to arrive at the airport almost 5 hours before one's flight departs.
Description of parliamentary trains can be found at
Parliamentary train - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Train tickets are most certainly for sale (otherwise one could sue the railway company for no longer providing a service), but are of little or no use to people intending to fly in this case. It is possible that most tickets are purchased specifically by collectors - there's a nice BBC feature at
BBC News - On board a real-life 'ghost train'
Numbers of people entering, exiting and interchanging at a UK station are published by the rail regulator at
Station usage
If you sort the spreadsheet by column V (total entries and exits) you will find that Britain's quietest station is indeed served only by a parliamentary train.
Back to the main thread:
While Kidlington might be deserving of a station in its own right, it is extremely unlikely that Oxford airport can possibly justify the expense of building of a station specifically for the airport for at least the next 5 years. Given that Oxford station is not in the city centre, and Oxford generally has good bus services, I find it very difficult to see public transport from city centre to Oxford airport being anything other than a long bus ride.
Description of parliamentary trains can be found at
Parliamentary train - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Train tickets are most certainly for sale (otherwise one could sue the railway company for no longer providing a service), but are of little or no use to people intending to fly in this case. It is possible that most tickets are purchased specifically by collectors - there's a nice BBC feature at
BBC News - On board a real-life 'ghost train'
Numbers of people entering, exiting and interchanging at a UK station are published by the rail regulator at
Station usage
If you sort the spreadsheet by column V (total entries and exits) you will find that Britain's quietest station is indeed served only by a parliamentary train.
Back to the main thread:
While Kidlington might be deserving of a station in its own right, it is extremely unlikely that Oxford airport can possibly justify the expense of building of a station specifically for the airport for at least the next 5 years. Given that Oxford station is not in the city centre, and Oxford generally has good bus services, I find it very difficult to see public transport from city centre to Oxford airport being anything other than a long bus ride.
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 28th Mar 2013 at 21:52.
Given that Oxford station is not in the city centre
Incidentally the parkway station planned just north of Oxford as part of the Chiltern Line link-up is I believe going to be close to (maybe co-located with) one of these park & ride sites.
Does anyone have any info on the loads Minoan have been achieving?