OXFORD/KIDLINGTON
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minoan
OF COURSE NOT! BUT SOMETHING IS BETTER THAN NOTHING.
SEE ANNA. AERO- ROUTES REQUIRED . RYAN DID THE ROUTE , THEN PULLED OUT FOR NO GOOD REASON . NUMBERS DROPPED AFTER RYAN CHANGED TIMES. DO YOU REALLY WANT TO DEPART AT 10.30 pm!!!!
EUROSCOT DID THE ROUTE WELL BUT THEN HAD A PROBLEM WHEN THE PLANE BECAME UNAVAILABLE
SEE ANNA. AERO- ROUTES REQUIRED . RYAN DID THE ROUTE , THEN PULLED OUT FOR NO GOOD REASON . NUMBERS DROPPED AFTER RYAN CHANGED TIMES. DO YOU REALLY WANT TO DEPART AT 10.30 pm!!!!
EUROSCOT DID THE ROUTE WELL BUT THEN HAD A PROBLEM WHEN THE PLANE BECAME UNAVAILABLE
Join Date: Jul 2004
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People fly Ryanair because it is cheap, the larger the aircraft then the cheaper per seat to operate it, any positioning sectors increase the airfares on the live sectors, just as a ballpark figure a F50 positioning in/out would need to charge something like 300% to 400% the fares of a B737-800 with no positioning in/out involved ... end result ... "We won't bother going" or "We'll travel from an alternative airport instead"!
P.S. And please don't shout
P.S. And please don't shout
EUROSCOT DID THE ROUTE WELL BUT THEN HAD A PROBLEM WHEN THE PLANE BECAME UNAVAILABLE
Where did you get that reason from? According to Jack Romero, Ryanair forced them out:-
Airline chief Jack Romero had turbulent time with Bournemouth operation (From Bournemouth Echo)
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minoan
Sorry if I seemed to shout, unintentional but passionate about getting flights in to Bournemouth. Agree the positioning would kill it if a permanant arrangement , if they got the numbers perhaps they would like to base a plane at bournemouth. Plenty of other routes they could try for the middle morning/afternoon gap. eg Belfast
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With a huge demand of 100,000 per year, the gap in the middle of the day could be filled with a rotation from bournemouth.positioning would only take 30 mins and could even take pax
What have you been smoking....
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bac3-11
And I just happened to, in a previous life, work for and know personally the gentleman that designed the BAC3-11 (Please note the Block Caps in "BAC"!)
Back in the day I recalled a Shed330/360 mob that based itself at BOH, think they were called "Metropolitan", with circa 30 to 36 seats they tried all sorts of routes in/out of BOH and they went out of business PDQ.
No doubt you're comparing BOH with SOU's success, much alike CWL bitching about BRS's success, alas SOU has an on-airport rail station connecting it directly with London whilst Hurn remains out in the countryside someplace.
However ... We are in the Kidlington Aerodrome thread, no appropriate place for discussing BOH's lacking so, as some might say, "Go discuss it in the BOH thread"
And I just happened to, in a previous life, work for and know personally the gentleman that designed the BAC3-11 (Please note the Block Caps in "BAC"!)
Back in the day I recalled a Shed330/360 mob that based itself at BOH, think they were called "Metropolitan", with circa 30 to 36 seats they tried all sorts of routes in/out of BOH and they went out of business PDQ.
No doubt you're comparing BOH with SOU's success, much alike CWL bitching about BRS's success, alas SOU has an on-airport rail station connecting it directly with London whilst Hurn remains out in the countryside someplace.
However ... We are in the Kidlington Aerodrome thread, no appropriate place for discussing BOH's lacking so, as some might say, "Go discuss it in the BOH thread"
Join Date: Jan 2013
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Achieved load factors (ALF) are only one element in determining airline operating performance - the others being unit costs and yields. It's the interplay of these that matter.
In any case, airlines traditionally took up to 3 years to make a route profitable (if it became profitable), and it's highly likely that this route will take many months to become profitable (if it does). Of course, this would have been factored into their financial plans, with difficulty arising if they were overly optimistic or if reality deviates from expectation.
Of course, FR has previously said 'it X route isn't profitable very quickly...' but that's very much the exception for airlines.
In any case, airlines traditionally took up to 3 years to make a route profitable (if it became profitable), and it's highly likely that this route will take many months to become profitable (if it does). Of course, this would have been factored into their financial plans, with difficulty arising if they were overly optimistic or if reality deviates from expectation.
Of course, FR has previously said 'it X route isn't profitable very quickly...' but that's very much the exception for airlines.
Last edited by G-JNHP; 8th Mar 2013 at 08:06.
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G-JNHP,
Are your words a diplomatic way of suggesting that these operations in and out of Kidlington are a lost cause, that the writing is on a wall, but to be polite we should wait three years before determining so?
Are your words a diplomatic way of suggesting that these operations in and out of Kidlington are a lost cause, that the writing is on a wall, but to be polite we should wait three years before determining so?
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Achieved load factors (ALF) are only one element in determining airline operating performance - the others being unit costs and yields. It's the interplay of these that matter.
In any case, airlines traditionally took up to 3 years to make a route profitable (if it became profitable), and it's highly likely that this route will take many months to become profitable (if it does). Of course, this would have been factored into their financial plans, with difficulty arising if they were overly optimistic or if reality deviates from expectation.
Of course, FR has previously said 'it X route isn't profitable very quickly...' but that's very much the exception for airlines.
In any case, airlines traditionally took up to 3 years to make a route profitable (if it became profitable), and it's highly likely that this route will take many months to become profitable (if it does). Of course, this would have been factored into their financial plans, with difficulty arising if they were overly optimistic or if reality deviates from expectation.
Of course, FR has previously said 'it X route isn't profitable very quickly...' but that's very much the exception for airlines.
The alternative model is Eastern's: not worried about relatively low load factors because the yields are very high (which can be seen from the available fares).
In the case of Minoan, if I want to fly within a few days (e.g. OXF-EDI on Monday, or OXF-DUB next Wednesday) their cheapest fares are still available, so they are certainly not emulating Eastern, at least not yet. I therefore know the yields are low; having an idea of the load factors gives me a good sense of how effective their marketing presence is (are they managing to fill their seats even at low prices?).
The era when airlines (other than rich state-owned airlines) could take 3 years to make a route profitable is long gone, and I don't know any European regional airline that isn't extremely focused on route profitability. If Minoan is unable to demonstrate that these routes are on a clear track to profitability not within 3 years but within 3 months (not necessarily profitable, but close to profitability and with a clear upwards trend), then I wouldn't expect them to stick around. They are apparently bankrolled by venture capitalists, who as a rule don't get rich by throwing good money after bad.
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Think my "traditional" comment was taken out of context and that the inherent historic perspective of it was ignored. I didn't say or imply it would take 3 years. I said that it's highly likely to take "many months" - which could be 5 months or 7 months or 9 months or more - especially from the newness of this operator within the UK, lack of awareness, effectively brand-new route, etc. Of course, we could argue all of this, but unfortunately without access to data it's somewhat academic. But I hope for the best.
And yep: lower ALF offset by higher yields (revenue per passenger per mile) or often vice-versa.
And yep: lower ALF offset by higher yields (revenue per passenger per mile) or often vice-versa.
Cool Mod
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Minoan
If this company require advertising on PPRuNe they can pay for it like everyone else. There is no more free space available to them. No more discussions on whether or not they will be operating out of Kidlington.
They merely go to the first page and click on advertising.
AA&R mods
They merely go to the first page and click on advertising.
AA&R mods
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With all due respect, unless I've missed something that has been deleted, I don't see how discussions on Minoan at Oxford are any different to EZY at Southend, TOM at DSA, or any other example of a new entrant or dominant carrier at a particular airport.
We're all professionals, or should be, and the performance of a new entrant to a little-tested market is of interest and intrigue.
We're all professionals, or should be, and the performance of a new entrant to a little-tested market is of interest and intrigue.
Cool Mod
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Minoan are NOT an operating entity and until they are they or their agents or their owners will not get free space on PPRuNe. That, is the end of the matter.
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
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Pop, Minoan ARE an operating airline. Flights bookable on their website, and a report on Anna.aero.
New airline routes launched (26 February
New airline routes launched (26 February
Last edited by Flypuppy; 9th Mar 2013 at 23:12.
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From the forum heading.
Now I am very confused.
I fully understand the no publicity rule like providing links to airline websites but just by mentioning any plans from any start up airline is also banned on prune?
M******* are now operating between O***** and E********* and D***** yet we can’t talk about it but if FlyBe were we could talk about it? Is it the airline or the airport that are the issue?
I am not being awkward but I am totally lost on this one as I want to follow the rules.
This forum is called Airlines, Airports & Routes
Topics about airports, routes and airline business.
Topics about airports, routes and airline business.
Minoan are NOT an operating entity and until they are they or their agents or their owners will not get free space on PPRuNe. That, is the end of the matter.
M******* are now operating between O***** and E********* and D***** yet we can’t talk about it but if FlyBe were we could talk about it? Is it the airline or the airport that are the issue?
I am not being awkward but I am totally lost on this one as I want to follow the rules.
Last edited by Pain in the R's; 10th Mar 2013 at 06:35.
I have to say that I agree with the last couple of posts and am equally confused. As the previous poster has indicated, I have no wish to be awkward either; simply enlightened.
I was always under the impression that full discussion of, and comment on, any airline whether actually operating or proposed was a given. I honestly cannot see that anyone posting here has deliberately sought to give Minoan 'free' advertising. Indeed, most of the comment has been of a negative nature.
Is this ruling to be applied to all start-ups in future (such as Little Red, Brighton City Airways, Maastricht Airlines etc.) or is there a particular reason, that I may be unaware of, why Minoan is a special case?
I was always under the impression that full discussion of, and comment on, any airline whether actually operating or proposed was a given. I honestly cannot see that anyone posting here has deliberately sought to give Minoan 'free' advertising. Indeed, most of the comment has been of a negative nature.
Is this ruling to be applied to all start-ups in future (such as Little Red, Brighton City Airways, Maastricht Airlines etc.) or is there a particular reason, that I may be unaware of, why Minoan is a special case?
Last edited by Expressflight; 10th Mar 2013 at 08:23. Reason: Additional example added.
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As the previous poster implies, I don't think anyone here is trying to 'plug' a specific route or airport or airline, just need an intelligent debate about the viability and expections for for a new player on the UK domestic aviation scene, launching new routes at a 'new' regional airport for the provision of commercial air services. For a bunch of Greek investors to scour the whole of Europe for opportunities to utilise their fleet of unexpectedly redundant Fokker 50s and settle on starting up completely remote, based operations at Oxford and Lugano, is pretty bold and adventurous.
It's a hugely risky venture for whoever is taking the bulk of the risk (could be shared risk on part of the airline or the airport(s) concerned?) and frighteningly expensivve until the loads get up to acceptable levels - whatever that load factor is.
But despite the economic downturn, high fuel prices, wretched APD charges etc., someone out there has had the balls to go for it and based on some pretty sound statistics and demographic analysis, it's giving it a crack. Where it takes £200-£400+ of your hard-earned cash and six hours with one or two train changes on our hopeless rail system to get from Oxford to Edinburgh, this ought to transform the productivity of those trying to earn a living doing business between the two great cities. Never been possible to do a sensible day return between the two before now - unless you trawl through the likes of BHX or LHR with all that entails.
Dublin's a no-brainer too.
Goodness knows the country needs a kick up the backside in terms of overall productivity - we are well down on the international rankings on that front, and if new regional air services can transform local transportation productivity, then, boy we should be embracing it, not cynically wishing for all airline start-ups to fail from the outset - 'cos that's what always happens nine time out of ten'.
So, give it a go and best off luck, small acorns and all that. It will be a tough ride, but stick in there. Whether it's 'London' Oxford, Cambridge 'Brighton City', Chester/Hawarden - any of the new UK kids on the block, wish them all well, are not most of the readers here pro-aviation?
'If at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again' - or get redeveloped as a housing or industrial estate - in aviation.
It's a hugely risky venture for whoever is taking the bulk of the risk (could be shared risk on part of the airline or the airport(s) concerned?) and frighteningly expensivve until the loads get up to acceptable levels - whatever that load factor is.
But despite the economic downturn, high fuel prices, wretched APD charges etc., someone out there has had the balls to go for it and based on some pretty sound statistics and demographic analysis, it's giving it a crack. Where it takes £200-£400+ of your hard-earned cash and six hours with one or two train changes on our hopeless rail system to get from Oxford to Edinburgh, this ought to transform the productivity of those trying to earn a living doing business between the two great cities. Never been possible to do a sensible day return between the two before now - unless you trawl through the likes of BHX or LHR with all that entails.
Dublin's a no-brainer too.
Goodness knows the country needs a kick up the backside in terms of overall productivity - we are well down on the international rankings on that front, and if new regional air services can transform local transportation productivity, then, boy we should be embracing it, not cynically wishing for all airline start-ups to fail from the outset - 'cos that's what always happens nine time out of ten'.
So, give it a go and best off luck, small acorns and all that. It will be a tough ride, but stick in there. Whether it's 'London' Oxford, Cambridge 'Brighton City', Chester/Hawarden - any of the new UK kids on the block, wish them all well, are not most of the readers here pro-aviation?
'If at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again' - or get redeveloped as a housing or industrial estate - in aviation.