Bmibaby
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
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LIFO. What a joke.
Why should I be made redundant because I started 8 months ago? Why shouldn't the old fossil that started 15 years ago be made redundant? Ex mainline and training Captains that are costing the company a fortune should be the first. Most of them have disciplinary records of some sort and are the first to go sick because they are rostered to work a weekend. The Law is the law, LIFO is history because it is wrong. I am more company minded and better at the job than those at the top of the seniority list because I am keen to do the job.
The company is correct, get rid of those that don't toe the company line, we all know the ones, the girls that are always sick the skippers that fly at mach .82 everywhere and make up the rules as they go along. The ones that are constantly late and the FO's that don't wear their uniform because they are embarrassed they are still an FO. Get rid of those that never pick up the phone when on standby, those that are awkward and refuse discretion and can't give a reason why.
LIFO is wrong and would never stand up in court. The correct way is via the Matrix. If nothing else it will get rid of alot of dead wood that has been dorment for years.
Yes the truth hurts.
Why should I be made redundant because I started 8 months ago? Why shouldn't the old fossil that started 15 years ago be made redundant? Ex mainline and training Captains that are costing the company a fortune should be the first. Most of them have disciplinary records of some sort and are the first to go sick because they are rostered to work a weekend. The Law is the law, LIFO is history because it is wrong. I am more company minded and better at the job than those at the top of the seniority list because I am keen to do the job.
The company is correct, get rid of those that don't toe the company line, we all know the ones, the girls that are always sick the skippers that fly at mach .82 everywhere and make up the rules as they go along. The ones that are constantly late and the FO's that don't wear their uniform because they are embarrassed they are still an FO. Get rid of those that never pick up the phone when on standby, those that are awkward and refuse discretion and can't give a reason why.
LIFO is wrong and would never stand up in court. The correct way is via the Matrix. If nothing else it will get rid of alot of dead wood that has been dorment for years.
Yes the truth hurts.
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Everyone is entitled to their point of view and that is fair enough! However I wonder if you would feel the same having being in the company for more than a measly 8 months? I would be very distressed at being told that I was to be made redundant when there are +60 pilots below me on the seniority list!
Dont forget that not all of us bend the rules and turn up late. You may find that the majority are company minded and are professional operators. Whilst not a baby pilot, I do work for the group and would hope that my seniority would count when the axe is wielded.
Dont forget that not all of us bend the rules and turn up late. You may find that the majority are company minded and are professional operators. Whilst not a baby pilot, I do work for the group and would hope that my seniority would count when the axe is wielded.
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Hudson Bay, you are in a minority I believe! LIFO is definately the fairest way of all! And when you said, "The company is correct, get rid of those that don't toe the company line........", I didn't realise that that was the company policy.......!! Do you know something we don't?
As merchant banker has stated, the vast majority aren't 0.82ers, don't have any disciplinaries against our names, and are all striving for the interest of the company! With your Stalin like methods, you'd perhaps get 5 maybe 10 pilots maximum, to qualify under your criteria, and then what? What criteria would you adopt then? There is something to be said for loyalty, and time served! How long have you been at baby? You don't sound like you're that new myself, I was wondering if you felt bad taking 5% of salary after 3 years service!
After all why should you get that, and not the 8 monther? I'm very company minded, and reliable! But I would be horrified if a Captain who's been flying for baby for 6 years, should be made redundant before a newby who's been with the company 3 months! After all, the new guy hasn't been around long enough to prove his "fossil" like tendencies, or very low immune system! 
As merchant banker has stated, the vast majority aren't 0.82ers, don't have any disciplinaries against our names, and are all striving for the interest of the company! With your Stalin like methods, you'd perhaps get 5 maybe 10 pilots maximum, to qualify under your criteria, and then what? What criteria would you adopt then? There is something to be said for loyalty, and time served! How long have you been at baby? You don't sound like you're that new myself, I was wondering if you felt bad taking 5% of salary after 3 years service! After all why should you get that, and not the 8 monther? I'm very company minded, and reliable! But I would be horrified if a Captain who's been flying for baby for 6 years, should be made redundant before a newby who's been with the company 3 months! After all, the new guy hasn't been around long enough to prove his "fossil" like tendencies, or very low immune system!
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Mateyboy, well said. I totally agree with your sentiments.
Hudson Bay, I thought some of your previous posts made some sense but that last one was ludicrous. There was only one point on which we agree and that's the one about the truth hurting. It will do for you as LIFO was in your terms of employment when you joined baby 5 minutes ago as it has always been. And it will stand up in court as it's in our contract and the only fair way to handle this unfortunate event. May I suggest you wash any future dirty laundry on the BALPA forum rather than here? Assuming you are a member?
Hudson Bay, I thought some of your previous posts made some sense but that last one was ludicrous. There was only one point on which we agree and that's the one about the truth hurting. It will do for you as LIFO was in your terms of employment when you joined baby 5 minutes ago as it has always been. And it will stand up in court as it's in our contract and the only fair way to handle this unfortunate event. May I suggest you wash any future dirty laundry on the BALPA forum rather than here? Assuming you are a member?
Join Date: Nov 2008
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I would find some sympathy with mateyboy's sentiments if he didn't end everything with an exclamation mark! Like this! Spelling and grammar nazi I know but it just makes me grind my teeth! See!
Almost as bad as the habit of a certain chief pilot's overuse of the question mark? There must be something wrong with the crew water?
Almost as bad as the habit of a certain chief pilot's overuse of the question mark? There must be something wrong with the crew water?
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Dog E, You've hit the nail on the head!
Maybe we should ditch LIFO in favour of a letter from each of us to the management stating why we should be kept on? We could all start with 100 points and one would be deducted for each grammatical error? I'd better update that CV!
Maybe we should ditch LIFO in favour of a letter from each of us to the management stating why we should be kept on? We could all start with 100 points and one would be deducted for each grammatical error? I'd better update that CV!
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Dog E "style"
I apologize emphatically for my over use of the exclamtion mark. We can't all be as smart and articulate as you. I will be looking out for the really grouchy old skipper, with no teeth. See. Overcome my !!! problem. like this. Is that what you do every night (question mark) Come on pprune and check everyone is spelling correctly, and not abusing speech marks.
I don't want your sympathy, but you do have mine. Pathetic man! (used in context)
I apologize emphatically for my over use of the exclamtion mark. We can't all be as smart and articulate as you. I will be looking out for the really grouchy old skipper, with no teeth. See. Overcome my !!! problem. like this. Is that what you do every night (question mark) Come on pprune and check everyone is spelling correctly, and not abusing speech marks.
I don't want your sympathy, but you do have mine. Pathetic man! (used in context)
Mach 3
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Why should I be made redundant because I started 8 months ago?...
If you want to start proposing we all accept unilateral variations to our contract, I don't think you're going to get much support from any of the audience here...
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Lets get this right. You think you should remain in a job because you joined before me? What a load of old tosh. You are older than me! Of course you are going to have joined before me you idiot.
I don't care what my contract says, the law is the law. My contract says I will have a temperature controlled hotel room, free from noise for night stops. I never do. Things change, life moves on and LIFO is old hat, dreamt up by your generation. Get over it and accept it. If it was your company don't tell me you would want to get rid of all the crews that work hard for you.
LIFO is outlawed and you don't like it because it may affect you. Well hard luck matey. You shouldn't have gone sick at the drop of a hat and refused that discretion because you didn't want to do a duty, not because you were fatigued. The hens have come home to roost and you are rightly worried. I'm not, because I have worked dam hard in an honest way and if I am made redundant on LIFO I will drag the company through the courts claiming unfair dismissal.
Some of you think you are more worthy because you maybe one above me on the seniority list. Some of you think you are more worthy because you are one hundred places above me on the seniority list. You will always believe that you have the right to the job because you are selfish and misguided just like BALPA.
I don't care what my contract says, the law is the law. My contract says I will have a temperature controlled hotel room, free from noise for night stops. I never do. Things change, life moves on and LIFO is old hat, dreamt up by your generation. Get over it and accept it. If it was your company don't tell me you would want to get rid of all the crews that work hard for you.
LIFO is outlawed and you don't like it because it may affect you. Well hard luck matey. You shouldn't have gone sick at the drop of a hat and refused that discretion because you didn't want to do a duty, not because you were fatigued. The hens have come home to roost and you are rightly worried. I'm not, because I have worked dam hard in an honest way and if I am made redundant on LIFO I will drag the company through the courts claiming unfair dismissal.
Some of you think you are more worthy because you maybe one above me on the seniority list. Some of you think you are more worthy because you are one hundred places above me on the seniority list. You will always believe that you have the right to the job because you are selfish and misguided just like BALPA.
Join Date: Jan 2007
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I apologise to old doggy for my rant! I saw red mist! And I'm sorry about my use of !'s, I can't help it! I'm seeing the quack tomorow! Yes I don't always spell corectly and punctuate , correctloy on prune, but I dont care! I don't know where these italics came from either!
Anyway sorry Doggy! You're (nothing to do with you being capt B.....I know you're not anyway, I just don't like people taking the micky thats all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) I feel bad
Anyway sorry Doggy! You're (nothing to do with you being capt B.....I know you're not anyway, I just don't like people taking the micky thats all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) I feel bad
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Hudsonbore
This is done to death every time there are redundancies at any airline. After all the fussing and fighting everyone generally comes to the concensus that LIFO forms the most transparent and fair way of dealing with this unpleasant situation.
Please explain why the older guys cost more? (at baby)
Your attitude is one of superiority and arrogance, but in reality I imagine youre one of those guys that jumps two lines ahead of the checklist and thinks its cool.
See you at the meeting on thurs eh ? If not, I look forward to flying with you, you sound like a real nice relaxing day out
Please explain why the older guys cost more? (at baby)
Your attitude is one of superiority and arrogance, but in reality I imagine youre one of those guys that jumps two lines ahead of the checklist and thinks its cool.
See you at the meeting on thurs eh ? If not, I look forward to flying with you, you sound like a real nice relaxing day out
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Hudson Bay,
I don’t really know why I’m even bothering to reply to your lunatic ravings but here is the link (again) proving the legality of LIFO.
http://www.parissmith.co.uk/publicat...-11-08.pdf.pdf
In case you find it too challenging to navigate to the link the title states:
REDUNDANCY SELECTION: LENGTH OF SERVICE CRITERIA IS VALID
And on the subject of getting things straight, a seniority list is not a list of people’s ages but a list of dates of joining (duh). There are younger people above me and older ones below. I could go on but you’re obviously too bitter and twisted to absorb any rational argument at the moment. I’d hate to be on a flight deck with you during an emergency, or in the back for that matter.
I don’t really know why I’m even bothering to reply to your lunatic ravings but here is the link (again) proving the legality of LIFO.
http://www.parissmith.co.uk/publicat...-11-08.pdf.pdf
In case you find it too challenging to navigate to the link the title states:
REDUNDANCY SELECTION: LENGTH OF SERVICE CRITERIA IS VALID
And on the subject of getting things straight, a seniority list is not a list of people’s ages but a list of dates of joining (duh). There are younger people above me and older ones below. I could go on but you’re obviously too bitter and twisted to absorb any rational argument at the moment. I’d hate to be on a flight deck with you during an emergency, or in the back for that matter.
Join Date: Jun 1999
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Hudson Bay (Giving the real Hudson Bay a bad name)
Hudson,
What worries me deeply here is that I know you and I fly with you, yet I never thought that you had all this deep crap festering inside you.
You are one huge mental case and that worries me even more!!!
You have signed up on LIFO conditions, like it or loath it (like all of us).
You didn't seek to change them, or walked away from it at the time.
You should have stayed with Flybe.
Why not just resign anyway, the sooner the better.
I do sincerely hope you get the chop, just for the laugh of it.
What worries me deeply here is that I know you and I fly with you, yet I never thought that you had all this deep crap festering inside you.
You are one huge mental case and that worries me even more!!!
You have signed up on LIFO conditions, like it or loath it (like all of us).
You didn't seek to change them, or walked away from it at the time.
You should have stayed with Flybe.
Why not just resign anyway, the sooner the better.
I do sincerely hope you get the chop, just for the laugh of it.
Last edited by moist; 2nd Dec 2008 at 09:38.
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Hudson,
Speaking as an 'Old Fossil' as you put it; I can say that you are entitled to your view,though many would disagree.
What is unbelievable is your selfish attitude.
Years ago the 'Old Fossils' would have weeded out people like you and suggested another career.
I sincerely hope you keep your attitude out of the Flight Deck.
Binder
Speaking as an 'Old Fossil' as you put it; I can say that you are entitled to your view,though many would disagree.
What is unbelievable is your selfish attitude.
Years ago the 'Old Fossils' would have weeded out people like you and suggested another career.
I sincerely hope you keep your attitude out of the Flight Deck.
Binder
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It amazes and saddens me the length that individuals go to protect their jobs. Hudson...you will I'm sure be naming who you believe should go to protect your job. Or maybe forwarding it to the HR department.
I cannot comment for BHX but I certaintly do not fly with any dead wood and I'm sure this applies to all bases. On the contrary I think that all the crews I have the privilige of flying with do a great job and barring the odd moan, which I have been guilty of myself, are amongst the finest bunch of people I have ever worked with. (When I say do a great job I mean genuinly try to make the operation run smoothly...some obviously are better than others)
With regards to all the BHX crews, some who I know personally and others I have been in the sim with, good luck. My position by the looks of things is in no way safe under the current HR proposal but I sincerely believe that LIFO will stand, be it at base or from the company seniority list. Having spoken to ACAS and a Barrister that specialises in Employment law, they find it hard to see how other matrixing can be used within our industry. For example sickness, it is MY licence and to maintain it I require a medical, MY medical and therefore it is my decision if I deem myself unable to operate...therefore the group will open themselves to tribunals on alot of factors.
This LIFO verses ageism is tosh. The union for Rolls Royce won an appeal to enforce this very rule. The age demographic is quite good having looked at the seniority list This is down to the fact that our C Pilot recognises that ageism should play no part in our employment policy.....therefore our list is not ageist.
A very sad situation we find ourselves in and indeed some elbows appear to have been shapened but gentlemen let us stand together rather than dividing. I appreciate this will not suit everyone as they may feel their jobs are at risk more so than others but if you believe in this industry make a stand now and support each other and maybe we can limit the number of compulsory redundancies by pay freezes, the flydubai boys going etc. This is a fantastic airline with great people and unfortunately we have to change to survive within the current economic climate.
Good luck to you all.
I cannot comment for BHX but I certaintly do not fly with any dead wood and I'm sure this applies to all bases. On the contrary I think that all the crews I have the privilige of flying with do a great job and barring the odd moan, which I have been guilty of myself, are amongst the finest bunch of people I have ever worked with. (When I say do a great job I mean genuinly try to make the operation run smoothly...some obviously are better than others)
With regards to all the BHX crews, some who I know personally and others I have been in the sim with, good luck. My position by the looks of things is in no way safe under the current HR proposal but I sincerely believe that LIFO will stand, be it at base or from the company seniority list. Having spoken to ACAS and a Barrister that specialises in Employment law, they find it hard to see how other matrixing can be used within our industry. For example sickness, it is MY licence and to maintain it I require a medical, MY medical and therefore it is my decision if I deem myself unable to operate...therefore the group will open themselves to tribunals on alot of factors.
This LIFO verses ageism is tosh. The union for Rolls Royce won an appeal to enforce this very rule. The age demographic is quite good having looked at the seniority list This is down to the fact that our C Pilot recognises that ageism should play no part in our employment policy.....therefore our list is not ageist.
A very sad situation we find ourselves in and indeed some elbows appear to have been shapened but gentlemen let us stand together rather than dividing. I appreciate this will not suit everyone as they may feel their jobs are at risk more so than others but if you believe in this industry make a stand now and support each other and maybe we can limit the number of compulsory redundancies by pay freezes, the flydubai boys going etc. This is a fantastic airline with great people and unfortunately we have to change to survive within the current economic climate.
Good luck to you all.