MANX2
You need to read the full ATOL regulations which are available on the CAA website. There is a section entitled "Regulation of Provision of Accommodation in Aircraft" which says that you either need to be an airline, an ATOL licence holder or a ticket provider to sell seats on any flight in the UK. It doesn't matter whether you're actually based in the UK or not; the law applies to sale of seats in the UK.
Manx2 is currently exempt from the ATOL regulations as Standard Exemption 1 removes the need for an ATOL to be held if the aircraft in question has less than 20 seats. This is the bit of regulation which is likely to change.
The company will then need to have its air carriers provide a Deed of Indemnity to the CAA which basically requires the airline operator to carry the passenger (or refund them) if they have paid for their ticket even if Manx2 hasn't paid the airline operator to operate the flight. I do not know if M2 have such agreements in place with their air carriers but they are not normally easily offered by airlines due to the financial implications of them.
Manx2 is currently exempt from the ATOL regulations as Standard Exemption 1 removes the need for an ATOL to be held if the aircraft in question has less than 20 seats. This is the bit of regulation which is likely to change.
The company will then need to have its air carriers provide a Deed of Indemnity to the CAA which basically requires the airline operator to carry the passenger (or refund them) if they have paid for their ticket even if Manx2 hasn't paid the airline operator to operate the flight. I do not know if M2 have such agreements in place with their air carriers but they are not normally easily offered by airlines due to the financial implications of them.
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Sorry I didn't mean my comment to sound so patronising.
The ATOL website says the following need to hold an ATOL licence:
An Air Travel Organiser's Licence (ATOL) is required by law when a firm sells:
In reality flying with Manx2 is no different than flying with Flybe, you are getting no more and no less protection from the failure of the airline.
The ATOL website says the following need to hold an ATOL licence:
An Air Travel Organiser's Licence (ATOL) is required by law when a firm sells:
- flight-based packages;
- charter flights;
- scheduled flights where an airline ticket is not issued straight away
In reality flying with Manx2 is no different than flying with Flybe, you are getting no more and no less protection from the failure of the airline.
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Have some travel booked for Belfast in November - received a call yesterday from Manx 2 saying flight times have altered - fair enough. Had a quick look at the site and they seem to have abandoned Belfast Int'l in favour of Belfast City for IOM routes on weekends. Is this new or have I missed something?
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Thanks to flightrider for providing the answer I was looking for - much appreciated.
gg190, thanks to you as well, it seems you were beaten to it by flightrider (although either condition 2 or 3 DOES apply to Manx2!)
Best
TA
gg190, thanks to you as well, it seems you were beaten to it by flightrider (although either condition 2 or 3 DOES apply to Manx2!)
Best
TA
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Yessir Twin Aisle, there is a clear ATOL exemption for operators of 19 seat aircraft. (even J31s) I presume you're the same twin aisle worked for Highland down in Cardiff flying the Jetstream and as you claim to have applied for many ATOLs surprised you didn t know about the exemption
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Just my penny's worth. Yes an exemption but don't forget the operator of the aircraft still requires an AOC and in the case of a uk registered less than 20 seats operator also a B operating licence(not in the Channel Islands). Its that licence that is classed as a form of ATOL. As explained to both me and Twin Ailse but our good friends at Kingsway.
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I like PPRUNE. As you can see from the little box on the left I've liked it for quite a while. I appreciate that it attracts all kinds of people: those who fly the things, those who like to look at them, and those who work behind the scenes to figure out how to make money with them (or not lose too much), operate them safely and legally, etc.
I'm in the latter category, as are I suspect some of the others posting on this thread. The discussion of the regulatory aspects of Manx2's licensing is therefore really interesting for me. I appreciate that it may be less so for others, just as some of the spotter-oriented discussions are for me, but that's why I hang out in AA&R ("Topics about airports, routes and airline business").
I've learnt a good deal about licensing in recent days (thanks to TwinAisle's and Flightrider's posts for particular enlightenment), and I now think I understand the nature of the exemption under which Manx2 operates. But I am still puzzled by one thing: they don't have an AOC, fine. So how come they have a two-letter code? IATA is pretty sticky about only issuing these to AOC holders, so I am curious to understand the mechanism by which Manx2 has been granted "NM". Or is "NM" officially assigned to one of the carriers who flies for them which then in turn wet-leases the others to operate under the same designator?
C.
I'm in the latter category, as are I suspect some of the others posting on this thread. The discussion of the regulatory aspects of Manx2's licensing is therefore really interesting for me. I appreciate that it may be less so for others, just as some of the spotter-oriented discussions are for me, but that's why I hang out in AA&R ("Topics about airports, routes and airline business").
I've learnt a good deal about licensing in recent days (thanks to TwinAisle's and Flightrider's posts for particular enlightenment), and I now think I understand the nature of the exemption under which Manx2 operates. But I am still puzzled by one thing: they don't have an AOC, fine. So how come they have a two-letter code? IATA is pretty sticky about only issuing these to AOC holders, so I am curious to understand the mechanism by which Manx2 has been granted "NM". Or is "NM" officially assigned to one of the carriers who flies for them which then in turn wet-leases the others to operate under the same designator?
C.
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For the record, I have never worked for Highland anywhere...
...and I don't tend to work with Type B licence holders, hence the gap in my knowledge.
...and I don't tend to work with Type B licence holders, hence the gap in my knowledge.
Last edited by TwinAisle; 3rd Sep 2010 at 08:18.
A few points:
The two-letter code NM is registered to the German operator (and AOC holder!) FLM Aviation which operates a significant proportion of Manx2's flights and in which Manx2's proprietor reportedly now holds a 49% stake.
A type B operating licence is fundamentally different to an ATOL. xtypeman, if you left Kingsway under the impression that the two are synonymous, I suggest you pay another visit and ask the question again! An Operating Licence represents confirmation of your company's financial fitness, insurance and regulatory compliance to engage in providing air services for hire and reward. An AOC represents your technical competence to safely operate an aircraft for the same purpose. You can't hold one without the other in the UK. The "Type B" bit means that you are limited to plying your trade with aircraft with less than 20 passenger seats - for anything above that, you need a Type A licence.
An ATOL licence approves you to do none of those things. It approves you to sell seats to members of the public on an aircraft which you have hired.
Highland, as an airline operator, held an AOC and an Operating Licence under which it sold seats to the public. Manx2 doesn't have an AOC so nor does it have an operating licence either. If it ever chartered an aircraft with more than 19 seats, it would need to hold an ATOL but given the existence of the exemption referred to earlier, it can sell seats on an aircraft which it has hired to the public without the need for an ATOL. Until that exemption disappears, of course.
The two-letter code NM is registered to the German operator (and AOC holder!) FLM Aviation which operates a significant proportion of Manx2's flights and in which Manx2's proprietor reportedly now holds a 49% stake.
A type B operating licence is fundamentally different to an ATOL. xtypeman, if you left Kingsway under the impression that the two are synonymous, I suggest you pay another visit and ask the question again! An Operating Licence represents confirmation of your company's financial fitness, insurance and regulatory compliance to engage in providing air services for hire and reward. An AOC represents your technical competence to safely operate an aircraft for the same purpose. You can't hold one without the other in the UK. The "Type B" bit means that you are limited to plying your trade with aircraft with less than 20 passenger seats - for anything above that, you need a Type A licence.
An ATOL licence approves you to do none of those things. It approves you to sell seats to members of the public on an aircraft which you have hired.
Highland, as an airline operator, held an AOC and an Operating Licence under which it sold seats to the public. Manx2 doesn't have an AOC so nor does it have an operating licence either. If it ever chartered an aircraft with more than 19 seats, it would need to hold an ATOL but given the existence of the exemption referred to earlier, it can sell seats on an aircraft which it has hired to the public without the need for an ATOL. Until that exemption disappears, of course.
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That has to make for some complex contractual relationships...
Thanks, Flightrider, for the clarification on codes!
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Cyrano
Not sure if FLM sub leases the other carriers or not. In my experience, these carriers operate the Manx2 flights using their own callsigns & (I think) the flight plans appear with their own codes.
Causes some headaches for the FIDS systems as well!
Not sure if FLM sub leases the other carriers or not. In my experience, these carriers operate the Manx2 flights using their own callsigns & (I think) the flight plans appear with their own codes.
Causes some headaches for the FIDS systems as well!
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Sad, isn't it, that an entrepreneurial regional like Manx2 has to run such legislative gauntlets? Shouldn't this discussion stop picking at the small print and lobby for airlines like this to have free rein? Otherwise, let's all use the trains - who have no such constraints.
Twin, you may be against M2 for political reasons you haven't revealed here. However, surely, you of all people should proclaim your free market credentials. Hit the high notes, mate!
Twin, you may be against M2 for political reasons you haven't revealed here. However, surely, you of all people should proclaim your free market credentials. Hit the high notes, mate!
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PeterP, are you determined to turn this site into a petty vendetta against those of us who won't join your site? Cease and desist please, you are boring everyone.
TA
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NM New Winter timetable - loss of flights
The Ops team started calling round on 8th to cancel one of my forward bookings as PAX. On trying to book replacement online found;
IOM-LBA-IOM now only once per day, usually evening
0720 IOM-BPL no longer exists - they are basing aircraft at BPL (on cost grounds ?) and now only 3 flights per day. No final flight back 2000.
No longer flying to BFS - still 4 flights/day to BHD (connecting to the new Galway and ORK flights)
East Midlands was lost in July, with the DHL freight contract (it now goes to DUB in private plane)
GLO and JEY flights look unchanged.
NCL flight is now later in day - in the old Eastern slot time at lunch.
Opportunities for a day trip to UK now substantially decreased as GLO will be only NM flight departing <0900 and returning after 1800.
So far my FlyBe forward bookings are holding up, even BRS and SOU in the "shoulder" season.
With the examinership spectre with Aer Arann, we are looking increasingly reliant on FlyBe. I have started to become lonely on the BHX flights, and wonder if that will survive as a twice daily service.
I note the several posts that said this is what would happen when Easy Jet came to the Island, even only 1 flight per day - what would happen if they did 3-4 ????
Noel Hayes moved his airline interest from Guernsey (Blue Islands) to IOM (Manx 2) - is he now moving on again to the rest of the Celtic fringe as opportunities arise from Highland and Aer Arann's problems ?
The whole setup for NM looks to be using at least one plane less - you can be sure that the remaining ones will be FLM (NH's shareholding).
IOM-LBA-IOM now only once per day, usually evening
0720 IOM-BPL no longer exists - they are basing aircraft at BPL (on cost grounds ?) and now only 3 flights per day. No final flight back 2000.
No longer flying to BFS - still 4 flights/day to BHD (connecting to the new Galway and ORK flights)
East Midlands was lost in July, with the DHL freight contract (it now goes to DUB in private plane)
GLO and JEY flights look unchanged.
NCL flight is now later in day - in the old Eastern slot time at lunch.
Opportunities for a day trip to UK now substantially decreased as GLO will be only NM flight departing <0900 and returning after 1800.
So far my FlyBe forward bookings are holding up, even BRS and SOU in the "shoulder" season.
With the examinership spectre with Aer Arann, we are looking increasingly reliant on FlyBe. I have started to become lonely on the BHX flights, and wonder if that will survive as a twice daily service.
I note the several posts that said this is what would happen when Easy Jet came to the Island, even only 1 flight per day - what would happen if they did 3-4 ????
Noel Hayes moved his airline interest from Guernsey (Blue Islands) to IOM (Manx 2) - is he now moving on again to the rest of the Celtic fringe as opportunities arise from Highland and Aer Arann's problems ?
The whole setup for NM looks to be using at least one plane less - you can be sure that the remaining ones will be FLM (NH's shareholding).
Last edited by OccDoc; 11th Sep 2010 at 08:06. Reason: DHL not DFS
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Theres usually one in maintenance or off on charter so I suppose thats the 7th one . GLO is always flying on the Dornier and the same aircraft does NCL and LBA and after October lBA is being chopped to single daily anyways. Looks like EasyJet are pulling pax from far and wide and not just LPL. MAN , LBA and BHX figures for August were horrible to.