The Lufthansa / BMI Thing (merged)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would imagine LH passing on some slots to Swiss to re-enter the LHR-GVA market.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: London
Posts: 523
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Swiss European
The Two Weekend GVA services are seasonal only, and given that LX have severely wound back ops their, why return the LHR.
Fact is O&D are adequately served through LCY and any *A connections are routed through FRA/MUC or Zurich for obvious reasons.
Fact is O&D are adequately served through LCY and any *A connections are routed through FRA/MUC or Zurich for obvious reasons.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It a shame that the current states of many economies will mask any short term effects of Lufthansa management input. In the long term, it can only be good for the business that decent management will finally be able to incorporate what has been an airline with tiny(baby?)-minded management and unrealised promise into part of its own potentially world-beating organisation.
Lufthansa could utilise the current lull in business to replace the existing mob of ill-chosen and poor managers at all levels and replace them with their own people. The workforce and BALPA won't be a problem in this respect - they have historically demonstrated little stomach for resistance, and none for outright confrontation. Whether the maximum potential of such a workforce has ever been realised in such an oppressive environment is quite obvious. If you want the best from people, you must treat them properly.
As to whether such improvements will be good for employment, that is doubtful. The current climate must (should) lead to redundancies. Eventual improvements in efficiency, which any decent management will find easy to identify, will inevitably lead to a reduced workforce. History demonstrates that acquisitions lead to shrinkage, occasionally massive.
And lets be brutally honest - Lufty bought a wad of Heathrow slots. That's all they're interested in.
Lufthansa could utilise the current lull in business to replace the existing mob of ill-chosen and poor managers at all levels and replace them with their own people. The workforce and BALPA won't be a problem in this respect - they have historically demonstrated little stomach for resistance, and none for outright confrontation. Whether the maximum potential of such a workforce has ever been realised in such an oppressive environment is quite obvious. If you want the best from people, you must treat them properly.
As to whether such improvements will be good for employment, that is doubtful. The current climate must (should) lead to redundancies. Eventual improvements in efficiency, which any decent management will find easy to identify, will inevitably lead to a reduced workforce. History demonstrates that acquisitions lead to shrinkage, occasionally massive.
And lets be brutally honest - Lufty bought a wad of Heathrow slots. That's all they're interested in.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bmibaby will be offloaded - possibly Jet2 or U2 will buy them / merge them
Regional will definately be sold off - LH stands to make a nice little bit of cash from that as it is profitable
They will need that extra capital to invest in sharpening the bmi mainline operation - new a/c, paint job and re-branding. who knows it may even involve a formal tie up with Virgin.
Regional will definately be sold off - LH stands to make a nice little bit of cash from that as it is profitable
They will need that extra capital to invest in sharpening the bmi mainline operation - new a/c, paint job and re-branding. who knows it may even involve a formal tie up with Virgin.
Mach 3
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Amazing because I heard the bmi workforce at LHR would be cut in half (too much driftwood there), a load of LH crew and airframes re-located and bmibaby and Regional would be left to do their own thing....you know...because they're actually making some money...
NOT.
NOT.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 2,781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bmi have a significant share of the LHR slots, however, what they have is not that much within the context of having a widespread hub at LHR. From what I can see they only have a limited number of routes albeit some at high frequencies. They have dropped routes and chopped and changed slots alot in the last few years there.
There has to be merit in a tie up with Virgin if they really see an opportunity at being a real challenge to BA. Singapore Airlines have a large share of VS and through the Star Alliance there is surely an aspiration to get something strong going in one strong brand to compete with BA and Once world at LHR?
I can see a new brand emerging in the guise of united Virgin and Bmi, especially when so much media hype about BA´s challenges at present (not ignoring the fact that most airlines are having a hard time at the moment)
What does anybody else think?
There has to be merit in a tie up with Virgin if they really see an opportunity at being a real challenge to BA. Singapore Airlines have a large share of VS and through the Star Alliance there is surely an aspiration to get something strong going in one strong brand to compete with BA and Once world at LHR?
I can see a new brand emerging in the guise of united Virgin and Bmi, especially when so much media hype about BA´s challenges at present (not ignoring the fact that most airlines are having a hard time at the moment)
What does anybody else think?
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Global Nomad
Age: 55
Posts: 1,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys - let's look at this through business and money eyes.
Baby has no value to any other airline:
Baby has four options:
If I were LH/bmi - I'd go for Option 3.
TA
Baby has no value to any other airline:
- It has a brand that will need to be changed (can't see them being bmi anything, and calling it 'baby' will be a nightmare in brand protection terms);
- It has relatively old, leased 733s and 735s, and the market is awash with them;
- It has few useful slots - and let's face it, most of the airports it operates to would soon find room for someone else in the current climate;
- It has an AOC, which is nice, but any airline that looks to buy them will already have one.
Baby has four options:
- stay where it is (as long as LH want it, which doesn't seem to be long!)
- go it alone (tough in this market, and it will need unpicking from bmi - it is NOT a standalone business right now)
- sell itself for a BI/MBO
- admit defeat and close it.
If I were LH/bmi - I'd go for Option 3.
TA
Mach 3
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or through another lense...
You buy into a business for the long term i.e., you're not seeking to recoup your "investment" next week.
So you seek to weed out the unprofitable elements of the business first and leave those elements which are worth nothing and only cost you a minimal amount or conversely already generate profit alone.
Everybody is interested in low-cost at the moment.
If they aren't, they will be come the winter.
You buy into a business for the long term i.e., you're not seeking to recoup your "investment" next week.
So you seek to weed out the unprofitable elements of the business first and leave those elements which are worth nothing and only cost you a minimal amount or conversely already generate profit alone.
Everybody is interested in low-cost at the moment.
If they aren't, they will be come the winter.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 2,781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If bmibaby was subject to an MBO or something similar, and was not part of a bigger strong entity with strong financing, you can be sure the competition would dive in and take the best performing parts of the network, Ryanair would certainly seize an opportunity and turn the heat up.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newcastle NI
Posts: 824
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How i forced the Germans to accept my surender
There is an article in todays Sunday times which gives some back ground to much of what has been said on here, the final para: being that SMB wouldn't rule out a return to the industry!!
Pointless username
Of course LH didn't buy bmi to get hold of baby, baby didn't start until after the LH/BMI deal was done a decade ago!! however they own it from Wednesday......
Much has changed in the last 10 years and LoCo is now a ongoing feature in European avaiation, like everyone else on here i have no idea what the germans plan for bmi, time will tell.
Reading many of the posts on this thread it is clear that your view point is coloured by which part of bmi you work for or used to work for: having at some stage worked for all 3 bmi companies it is clear that much has changed.
Regional
Was always the Golden boy, until the banks collapsed last year.
This year it has lost heaps and were it not for the Airbus contract would be laying at least two aircrafts worth of crews off according to the flight ops director.
bmibaby
Reported to be having its best year since birth having refocused on the Med routes, it cut its fleet size and crew numbers last fall, NT heaps much praise on it (death knell!!)
Mainline
Still reeling from NT new business model, now putting the business quality back in and Peter Spencer tipped to gain rapid promotion under new owners.
Having chopped the long haul network, where this years planned rise in APD would have resulted in an even bigger loss, it is now making great in roads in to profitable markets with a quality product. There is much surgery to come at LHR but the unions having blocked much of the change for now but that wont last.
What will Luffty do? as i said, few know the answer to that, not a lot i suspect unless someone comes up with cash for something they don't want or need like baby? but thats unlikely at the present, the Germans will concentrate on what needs fixing in the group
If baby is sold as most on here seem to think then there are only 3 player's in my mind U2,Jet2 or a private buyer, the first two would have to change the name/brand and there is little else of value, a private buyer would want to keep the brand (which is fast becoming baby anyway) and the lack of assets would keep the price/value down
The 319's will be gone in 2 years, the slots that LH decide to keep will feed routes that need a 321 size or greater and ERJ will be phased out of LHR by the end of next Summer at latest, they are only slot protecting the value of SMB bmi holding and that ends on Wednesday
Time will tell
Pointless username
Of course LH didn't buy bmi to get hold of baby, baby didn't start until after the LH/BMI deal was done a decade ago!! however they own it from Wednesday......
Much has changed in the last 10 years and LoCo is now a ongoing feature in European avaiation, like everyone else on here i have no idea what the germans plan for bmi, time will tell.
Reading many of the posts on this thread it is clear that your view point is coloured by which part of bmi you work for or used to work for: having at some stage worked for all 3 bmi companies it is clear that much has changed.
Regional
Was always the Golden boy, until the banks collapsed last year.
This year it has lost heaps and were it not for the Airbus contract would be laying at least two aircrafts worth of crews off according to the flight ops director.
bmibaby
Reported to be having its best year since birth having refocused on the Med routes, it cut its fleet size and crew numbers last fall, NT heaps much praise on it (death knell!!)
Mainline
Still reeling from NT new business model, now putting the business quality back in and Peter Spencer tipped to gain rapid promotion under new owners.
Having chopped the long haul network, where this years planned rise in APD would have resulted in an even bigger loss, it is now making great in roads in to profitable markets with a quality product. There is much surgery to come at LHR but the unions having blocked much of the change for now but that wont last.
What will Luffty do? as i said, few know the answer to that, not a lot i suspect unless someone comes up with cash for something they don't want or need like baby? but thats unlikely at the present, the Germans will concentrate on what needs fixing in the group
If baby is sold as most on here seem to think then there are only 3 player's in my mind U2,Jet2 or a private buyer, the first two would have to change the name/brand and there is little else of value, a private buyer would want to keep the brand (which is fast becoming baby anyway) and the lack of assets would keep the price/value down
The 319's will be gone in 2 years, the slots that LH decide to keep will feed routes that need a 321 size or greater and ERJ will be phased out of LHR by the end of next Summer at latest, they are only slot protecting the value of SMB bmi holding and that ends on Wednesday
Time will tell
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: La Napoule
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Andy Harrison has already stated that he would not buy Baby, even if it was offered for sale for a quid! So on that basis U2 can be ruled out.
However,that statement was made 12 months ago and we all know what this industry is like.
Binder
However,that statement was made 12 months ago and we all know what this industry is like.
Binder
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The demise of the Embraer at LHR has been said for 3 years now, and they asked for 10 this summer! I think the 145 will disappear from LHR but 170's will replace 
Reggie has a good history with Lufthansa in the past and why would they sell it! To make money? They have other plans to do that I think.
D and F
Reggie has a good history with Lufthansa in the past and why would they sell it! To make money? They have other plans to do that I think.
D and F
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: sussex
Posts: 613
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the Times
MB
He won’t rule out a return to the airline industry, but said he had no immediate plans. “As I told a Lufthansa function at Christmas, one reason to get out of the airline industry is to make some money.”
£223 Million aged 67 and he wants to make some money.
Did he think about giving some to the staff who helped him make it ?
MB
He won’t rule out a return to the airline industry, but said he had no immediate plans. “As I told a Lufthansa function at Christmas, one reason to get out of the airline industry is to make some money.”
£223 Million aged 67 and he wants to make some money.
Did he think about giving some to the staff who helped him make it ?
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: I'll go and ask the Captain
Posts: 643
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SMB give the staff a penny of his hard earned cash? 
I think we should forget everything that has happened under his stewardship when we consider what lies ahead. Lufthansa have now got a large foothold at LHR. As the biggest player in the Star Alliance it would make perfect sense to utilise bmi as their conduit for expanding the Star presence at LHR. Building the operation around the global needs of Star carriers that use LHR as a hub. Quite simply, forget how bmi have approached the airlines business in the past.
Possible expansion by bmi operating Long haul routes that are prohibitive to the larger Star airlines at present to less well known destinations that may be of benefit to Star as a whole. Opening up access of bmi slots to benefit other larger Star carriers.
Expand the middle East and open Far East/China to Star at LHR.
Take on BA/VS on certain lower yield routes where they are struggling with larger aircraft.
Feeders throughout Europe that offer choice of onward connections from other worldwide destinations to worldwide destinations.
Exercise a degree of control of what other Star carriers already operating out of LHR do or wish to do, for the self interest of Lufthansa.
6
I think we should forget everything that has happened under his stewardship when we consider what lies ahead. Lufthansa have now got a large foothold at LHR. As the biggest player in the Star Alliance it would make perfect sense to utilise bmi as their conduit for expanding the Star presence at LHR. Building the operation around the global needs of Star carriers that use LHR as a hub. Quite simply, forget how bmi have approached the airlines business in the past.
Possible expansion by bmi operating Long haul routes that are prohibitive to the larger Star airlines at present to less well known destinations that may be of benefit to Star as a whole. Opening up access of bmi slots to benefit other larger Star carriers.
Expand the middle East and open Far East/China to Star at LHR.
Take on BA/VS on certain lower yield routes where they are struggling with larger aircraft.
Feeders throughout Europe that offer choice of onward connections from other worldwide destinations to worldwide destinations.
Exercise a degree of control of what other Star carriers already operating out of LHR do or wish to do, for the self interest of Lufthansa.
6
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In a sense STAR is coming together at Heathrow now as Swiss, Lufthansa, Austrian and co have joined BMI in Terminal One, soon to be Terminal 2B once that's complete. Makes a lot more sense to see the Lufthansa and the BMI frames all together now.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK - Hants
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
StarAlliance needs LHR to be a hub, I believe that was one of the motives for bmi becoming a member of StarAlliance in the firstplace.
I would think, and like to think, that bmi's routes will be developed at LHR so that it becomes a real hub unlike the current mini-hub for destinations mid-east; the bmi brand being used to differentiate themselves as the hub-owner and the StarAlliance partners being feeder flight to either compliment or add different routes throughout European.
I would think, and like to think, that bmi's routes will be developed at LHR so that it becomes a real hub unlike the current mini-hub for destinations mid-east; the bmi brand being used to differentiate themselves as the hub-owner and the StarAlliance partners being feeder flight to either compliment or add different routes throughout European.