Olympic Airlines/Air
Paxing All Over The World
Olympic simply hasn't found them yet, nor perhaps been inspired to look.
I have never travelled on Olympic but that is largely because I have never heard a good word spoken of it. Sad but true. No one likes to pull the plug (read about Delta in two other threads) but the policticians should look at Sabena and Swiss and see that they will get a better result by closing it down now and starting afresh, rather than tipping more money down the drain. I bet that they won't.
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An interesting concept for Olympic to consider would be separating the airline into two carriers, one for domestic routes, and the other for international, each with its own management team, but with shared engineering and maintenance. By doing this, they might be able to hone in on the most problematic issues and solve a great deal of their problems.
Of course, as with all restructuring, there will be loss of jobs and screaming by the unions. But there will be that anyway, and on a larger scale, if the whole enterprise goes bust.
In-house retraining would help too, especially with regard to improvement of the service. You can change that around.
It's worth a try ... you can't beat their safety record, and that's what they should be advertising.
Of course, as with all restructuring, there will be loss of jobs and screaming by the unions. But there will be that anyway, and on a larger scale, if the whole enterprise goes bust.
In-house retraining would help too, especially with regard to improvement of the service. You can change that around.
It's worth a try ... you can't beat their safety record, and that's what they should be advertising.
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The Commision has officially announced they demand the return of about 538 million euros.
This has caused a lot of political reactions:
One parliamentary has called Olympic useless and is advocating closure even without transfer of employes to other jobs.
On the other hand the leader of the communist party has called for Greece to ignore the EU ruling.
Olympic has suffered reservation cancellations in the thousands, aggravating an already tight financial situation.
Another scenario is expecting creditors to start taking action to claim payments or recaim their assets, which could start a chainreaction accelerating developments.
Even now, a company called Klesch from the UK, specializing in turning around bankrupt or near bankrupt companies, claims they are interested to save Olympic even with all the debt and the money they owe to the state.
But then again, they might just allow smoking again, and live happily ever after....
This has caused a lot of political reactions:
One parliamentary has called Olympic useless and is advocating closure even without transfer of employes to other jobs.
On the other hand the leader of the communist party has called for Greece to ignore the EU ruling.
Olympic has suffered reservation cancellations in the thousands, aggravating an already tight financial situation.
Another scenario is expecting creditors to start taking action to claim payments or recaim their assets, which could start a chainreaction accelerating developments.
Even now, a company called Klesch from the UK, specializing in turning around bankrupt or near bankrupt companies, claims they are interested to save Olympic even with all the debt and the money they owe to the state.
But then again, they might just allow smoking again, and live happily ever after....
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S.w.i.s.s. next?
Well done! Now letīs hope they will focus on Air France, Alitalia and S.w.i.s.s. next!
Funny that you mention Swissair. S.w.i.s.s. (So What Itīs Still Swissair) got a HUGE (2 billion Swiss Franks) subsidy from the Swiss government back in 2002 to help things get started... 
(Switzerland signed a bilateral agreement with the EU in the late ī90 īs when Swissair wanted to buy a controlling stake in SABENA and is bound to the same EU rules regarding subsidising airlines! 
)
Remember my days in Athens ATC in the early eighties when the airline employed no less than 14000 people!!! when at the same time Swissair with three times bigger fleet only employed 5000!
(Switzerland signed a bilateral agreement with the EU in the late ī90 īs when Swissair wanted to buy a controlling stake in SABENA and is bound to the same EU rules regarding subsidising airlines! )
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There was an article on the main page of Kathimerini Internet edition that basically rehashed the situation and the ruling of the Commission. There was a second article about the two bids that are still on the table for its purchase. Here's the link on that, should you be interested.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w.../09/2005_60789
Also, while the government has said that it will keep the staff employed, it does not say specifically that it will keep them employed in the airline industry! Perhaps I am being too technical, but it seems to me that they could be "placed" elsewhere.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w.../09/2005_60789
Also, while the government has said that it will keep the staff employed, it does not say specifically that it will keep them employed in the airline industry! Perhaps I am being too technical, but it seems to me that they could be "placed" elsewhere.
A Runyonesque Character
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Swiss next
I *don't* think that approval would have been given if there had been a state-aid investigation in the background, somehow.
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The media reports now are a bit confusing.
The government was planning a shutdown, using the EU-commissionīs decision as an excuse. Now that paper obviously leaves some options, that caught the government by surprise. Among other things the commission mentions the sum to be returned by OA is negotiable. The opposition jumped all over them demanding to review all the options to keep OA alive. Now the government chickened out and gave an extra 15 days deadline to complete a sale of OA with the buyer taking over the fines. They also passed a law, that gives OA protection from creditors until 28 February 2006. Let us see how that will influence day to day business.
However since a greek law covers only the greek territory, creditors could still impound assets abroad.
Interesting developments. Let us see where it leads.
The government was planning a shutdown, using the EU-commissionīs decision as an excuse. Now that paper obviously leaves some options, that caught the government by surprise. Among other things the commission mentions the sum to be returned by OA is negotiable. The opposition jumped all over them demanding to review all the options to keep OA alive. Now the government chickened out and gave an extra 15 days deadline to complete a sale of OA with the buyer taking over the fines. They also passed a law, that gives OA protection from creditors until 28 February 2006. Let us see how that will influence day to day business.
However since a greek law covers only the greek territory, creditors could still impound assets abroad.
Interesting developments. Let us see where it leads.
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There was this very interesting offer by an American/Greek consortium which is still on the table, so reports say. I am guessing that the deal was delayed pending the outcome of the E.U. decision. Of course, I haven't read/seen the contract for that deal, and I do not know, under Greek law, whether the new owners also take over the debts. I don't understand what other assets Olympic has that are outside the country. Can you expand on that GreekPilot747?
Also, reports say that about 2000 current employees will be offered early retirement packages. That would reduce the work force to around 4000. The new company would probably axe a quarter or more of those (at least that's what usually happens), so they would end up with about half the current number. That is certainly a start toward getting things under control.
I still think that, whatever the future of this company, the domestic and international divisions should have separate management teams. And, they should start to do some advertising; can't remember that I've ever seen a TV add for Olympic.
Also, reports say that about 2000 current employees will be offered early retirement packages. That would reduce the work force to around 4000. The new company would probably axe a quarter or more of those (at least that's what usually happens), so they would end up with about half the current number. That is certainly a start toward getting things under control.
I still think that, whatever the future of this company, the domestic and international divisions should have separate management teams. And, they should start to do some advertising; can't remember that I've ever seen a TV add for Olympic.
Last edited by big fraidy cat; 17th Sep 2005 at 15:37.
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@BFCat:
For example offices in foreign cities.
Also the leased airplanes could be impounded when landing abroad, if they owe the leasingrate.
If they owe fees abroad (catering,fuel,landing and overflight), the creditors could also impound airplanes.
All of the above are examples and are pure speculation, because I do not know what they owe and to whom, if at all.
As I would understand it, a greek creditor is stripped of his rights to take legal action against OA both in Greece and abroad.
A foreign creditor, impounding assets abroad would not be touched by a greek law.
Anybody have a different guess?
In any way, the latest developments leave the outcome open.
Cat are you a travelagent?
I just remembered the case of this big travelagency in SKG that was happily selling OA tickets, but not paying them in time.
Without any money received by OA, they had the brilliant idea to return the rebate to this travelagency, that it deserved for high ticketsales.
Also heard rumours about a greek travelagency in southern Germany that also never paid for the tickets, and was protected in doing so, either from within OA or the government.
That is why I think it needs to be privatized to have any chance of survival. Somebody must be hurting when they bleed money and do something about it. Unfortunately many employees do not see it that way. They want to stay stateowned at all cost.
They also use the threat of becoming a greek "HELIOS" if the state pulls out. They think private means unsafe. I think it all has to do with oversight by the aviation authorities.
For example offices in foreign cities.
Also the leased airplanes could be impounded when landing abroad, if they owe the leasingrate.
If they owe fees abroad (catering,fuel,landing and overflight), the creditors could also impound airplanes.
All of the above are examples and are pure speculation, because I do not know what they owe and to whom, if at all.
As I would understand it, a greek creditor is stripped of his rights to take legal action against OA both in Greece and abroad.
A foreign creditor, impounding assets abroad would not be touched by a greek law.
Anybody have a different guess?
In any way, the latest developments leave the outcome open.
Cat are you a travelagent?
I just remembered the case of this big travelagency in SKG that was happily selling OA tickets, but not paying them in time.
Without any money received by OA, they had the brilliant idea to return the rebate to this travelagency, that it deserved for high ticketsales.
Also heard rumours about a greek travelagency in southern Germany that also never paid for the tickets, and was protected in doing so, either from within OA or the government.
That is why I think it needs to be privatized to have any chance of survival. Somebody must be hurting when they bleed money and do something about it. Unfortunately many employees do not see it that way. They want to stay stateowned at all cost.
They also use the threat of becoming a greek "HELIOS" if the state pulls out. They think private means unsafe. I think it all has to do with oversight by the aviation authorities.
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Greek Pilot -
One of the articles that I read covering the statement made by the present Greek government said that this 6-month reprieve would protect the company from domestic and international creditors. Now, whether that was a slip of the tongue by the press officer, or a reporter's mistake, I am not sure. Whatever foreign claims would be brought against the airline would be covered by international law in any event.
Yes, I am a travel agent. However, our company is primarily an incoming agency. Most flight tickets that I sell are for domestic flights departing from Mykonos (the nearest island to Tinos with an airport) or from Athens, and most of this is seasonal.
You probably know that from June through September, it is nearly impossible to get a seat on a flight departing both Mykonos and Santorini. I am sure that is true of other popular island destinations as well. It is a lucrative market, even if seasonal, and Aegean is making strong in-roads, with nearly as many daily flights. I wonder how many they employ.
One of the articles that I read covering the statement made by the present Greek government said that this 6-month reprieve would protect the company from domestic and international creditors. Now, whether that was a slip of the tongue by the press officer, or a reporter's mistake, I am not sure. Whatever foreign claims would be brought against the airline would be covered by international law in any event.
Yes, I am a travel agent. However, our company is primarily an incoming agency. Most flight tickets that I sell are for domestic flights departing from Mykonos (the nearest island to Tinos with an airport) or from Athens, and most of this is seasonal.
You probably know that from June through September, it is nearly impossible to get a seat on a flight departing both Mykonos and Santorini. I am sure that is true of other popular island destinations as well. It is a lucrative market, even if seasonal, and Aegean is making strong in-roads, with nearly as many daily flights. I wonder how many they employ.
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Olympic on sale!! Here is the latest from a local newspaper's online site:
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w.../09/2005_60906
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w.../09/2005_60906
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Greek media reports now, that the management of both Olympic Airlines and Olympic Airways is going to take the matter to the european court, appealing the EU comissionīs decision.
Government is seeking a solution like the one for Swissair/Swiss and does not exclude the possibility to keep a stake in a future scheme.
Today a Greek court also decided in favor of some seasonal employees, saying that their working contracts are legally the same as the ones of permanent employees. Implications of this are basically not known yet.
Government is seeking a solution like the one for Swissair/Swiss and does not exclude the possibility to keep a stake in a future scheme.
Today a Greek court also decided in favor of some seasonal employees, saying that their working contracts are legally the same as the ones of permanent employees. Implications of this are basically not known yet.
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The latest news, about OLYMPIC AIRLINES, is that Greeks, WANT OLYMPIC to fly, even with losses. So, OA will fly for the next decades, with new owner (next week), and the Greek Gov. to keep the 30% of the shares.
Olympic rival, Aegean, will have hard times, as most Greeks prefer to fly with OA, and the competition with the new management, will not be an easy job, as it was untill now, where most of the OA management, was acting in "favor" of their rivals.
According to AIRBUS site, there is nothing noted, for the A320 aircrafts that Aegean ordered (?).
Do they have the funds, to buy those aircraft!
I dont think so! Everybody knows, that they are in "red zone"!
Olympic rival, Aegean, will have hard times, as most Greeks prefer to fly with OA, and the competition with the new management, will not be an easy job, as it was untill now, where most of the OA management, was acting in "favor" of their rivals.
According to AIRBUS site, there is nothing noted, for the A320 aircrafts that Aegean ordered (?).
Do they have the funds, to buy those aircraft!
I dont think so! Everybody knows, that they are in "red zone"!
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I would love to know the terms of these aircraft purchase contracts. I'm guessing that there's just a small deposit on signing, with the balance to be paid on delivery. So, I suppose that airlines are hoping that they'll have the money when payday comes. Perhaps Aegean also believed that they would be the 'last man standing' if Olympic went bust. In which case, they'd have accumulated plenty of money in time to take delivery of the new equipment.
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Everybody knows, that they are in "red zone"!
Aegean is a great outfit to fill the void as they have been able to survive against unfair subsidied competition so should have a ball when OA closes down....
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Looks like the government is backtracking all the way on this. Things do not look good for the airline.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w.../09/2005_61040
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w.../09/2005_61040
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The latest news, about OLYMPIC AIRLINES, is that Greeks, WANT OLYMPIC to fly, even with losses. So, OA will fly for the next decades, with new owner (next week), and the Greek Gov. to keep the 30% of the shares.
Certain interests in Greece want to have OA flying, because it suits them.
However, we cannot be part of the EU and not play by the rules.
It has been clear to most people in european aviation, what the rules are, except for some people in Greece who think the rules do not apply to them.
If you do not like the EU rules , then leave! However then be prepared to have tough negotiations over access to the EU destinations.
Over and over, I have to read that Aegean is the cause of Olympics problems. The employees claim that there is a conspiracy against OA to help Aegean. BULL5H!T
On one hand there is an organization that seems to get it right with customers, and that is recognized by getting Awards.
Aegean also got a major recognition by being selected as a Lufthansa-partner. Star-Alliance membership is an option.
On the other hand, there is good old OA, that can not get it right, and that no serious airline has the slightest interest to cooperate with. Any idea why that would be?
OA employees, should start rethinking their own positions and attitudes, and stop blaming competitors. Competition is a fact of life, but obviously some canīt stand it.
And do not start the story about safety again. Safety is not something you give the passengers for doing them a favor.
Every serious airline should thrive to achieve it.
Obviously OAīs management does not care that much about it, otherwise they would not wetlease aircraft from dubious sources.
The orders of Aegean, are not announced by Airbus yet, because they would not put it on their website, until negotiations are finalized, and contracts signed. You do not have to pay airplanes with your own cash at delivery. If the market believes in you, you will get financing arranged, and pay them off over as many years as you agreed with creditors.
If you expect Aegean to be embarassed by being unable to pay the airplanes on delivery, then I would like to remind you of the situation and delays, when OA took delivery of their A340s.
They actually had trouble get the planes as planned from Toulouse, and isnīt the state subsidising the leases, because healthy OA cannot pay the leasingrates, that their brilliant managers agreed to, and that are as always above the going marketrates.
OA has had its fair chances and opportunities, and let them all go unused.
In my oppinion there is a need for airtransport to the islands, that is as a fact subsidised. Other than that, OA is doing nothing that others couldnīt do better. Those others could also offer jobs.
However those jobs would be remunerated at the so called marketlevel. A term I personally do not like , when used by politicians and referring to lower pay in the private airlines in Greece. However this is a development that could have been avoided, if HALPA would have stood by these pilots!
Is HALPA now open to all greek pilots? If not it should not be representing the greek pilot community in IFALPA.