MD80 plane crash in Phuket, Sep. 07
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I wonder where the OG management's talk about a "12 year old" airplane comes from. If the pax manifest carries the correct reg, the plane was an early-production 24 year old ex-TWA.
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I have to put my hand up as an old pilot but not bold pilot.
Having flown across most of the world in my own light aircraft over 25 years I know when to say no.
Turning back is never easy.
I suspect a lot harder when you have pax in the back.
This was an old pilot/young sprog in conditions that you want to say no.
In my aircraft I say no.
Flying a bus or truck is a different matter.
Take a look at the Halifax MK accident. Cheap crew and pressure.
Corporate pressure is to blame here.
Having flown across most of the world in my own light aircraft over 25 years I know when to say no.
Turning back is never easy.
I suspect a lot harder when you have pax in the back.
This was an old pilot/young sprog in conditions that you want to say no.
In my aircraft I say no.
Flying a bus or truck is a different matter.
Take a look at the Halifax MK accident. Cheap crew and pressure.
Corporate pressure is to blame here.
Phil;
Re,
Perhaps, but we can't "name" causes at present as we don't have all the information.
In information-gathering stages of investigation, the immediacy of data such as DFDRs, CVRs, METARS (both official, and, I see, "unofficial" (rapidly unfolding/changing wx, perhaps?) must be intelligently interpreted and combined with the gathering of "softer" information which is typically the human-factors side such as the obvious crew history as well as the factors which you have mentioned here.
Corporate pressures absolutely play a role in employee behaviours but cannot be singled out, first because such a project demands a very wide examination of cultures and not just this one accident. We only know that there is a smoking mess where there was once an airplane. All the rest is speculation - some of it reasonably conceived, a though I have expressed elsewhere, but much of it is still in the "eye/ear-witness accounts and second/third-hand anecdotes stage.
Such anecdotes do point somewhat, but all possibilities must remain open until eliminated through the data. "Soft" causes such as fatigue-related crew error, while having made it into accident reports a few times, (the Guantanamo accident is one of the few which cite fatigue as a primary cause, the AA1420 Little Rock accident comes close), but reports generally favour hard data because change is so difficult to cite and support in soft causes. (Don't get me wrong though - I have been fighting the fatigue-issue for years and Canada still has a long way to go in escaping a Monrovia-like regulatory environment when it comes to fatigue-risk management. - sorry for the momentary lapse!)
I cite these broader examples because they each have arisen in this thread as "the" cause of this terrible tragedy. Not so. There is only the possibility of a hierarchy of causes at present, and unless there is an unequivocal, immediate cause such as a deployed reverser, we must be cautious, (I am not citing this as a potential "cause", I am expressing the notion of "clear-and-present" mechanical "failure" such as the Cranbrook B737 accident, vice what are almost certainly broader factors which must be considered as speculation turns to knowledge). Almost certainly, "one factor" will not be the case here and so speculation must take that into account.
BTW, I sure like your approach....it takes a short time to teach someone how to fly but it takes a lifetime to teach them when not to...
Re,
Corporate pressure is to blame here.
In information-gathering stages of investigation, the immediacy of data such as DFDRs, CVRs, METARS (both official, and, I see, "unofficial" (rapidly unfolding/changing wx, perhaps?) must be intelligently interpreted and combined with the gathering of "softer" information which is typically the human-factors side such as the obvious crew history as well as the factors which you have mentioned here.
Corporate pressures absolutely play a role in employee behaviours but cannot be singled out, first because such a project demands a very wide examination of cultures and not just this one accident. We only know that there is a smoking mess where there was once an airplane. All the rest is speculation - some of it reasonably conceived, a though I have expressed elsewhere, but much of it is still in the "eye/ear-witness accounts and second/third-hand anecdotes stage.
Such anecdotes do point somewhat, but all possibilities must remain open until eliminated through the data. "Soft" causes such as fatigue-related crew error, while having made it into accident reports a few times, (the Guantanamo accident is one of the few which cite fatigue as a primary cause, the AA1420 Little Rock accident comes close), but reports generally favour hard data because change is so difficult to cite and support in soft causes. (Don't get me wrong though - I have been fighting the fatigue-issue for years and Canada still has a long way to go in escaping a Monrovia-like regulatory environment when it comes to fatigue-risk management. - sorry for the momentary lapse!)
I cite these broader examples because they each have arisen in this thread as "the" cause of this terrible tragedy. Not so. There is only the possibility of a hierarchy of causes at present, and unless there is an unequivocal, immediate cause such as a deployed reverser, we must be cautious, (I am not citing this as a potential "cause", I am expressing the notion of "clear-and-present" mechanical "failure" such as the Cranbrook B737 accident, vice what are almost certainly broader factors which must be considered as speculation turns to knowledge). Almost certainly, "one factor" will not be the case here and so speculation must take that into account.
BTW, I sure like your approach....it takes a short time to teach someone how to fly but it takes a lifetime to teach them when not to...
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Windshear Warning Issued Prior To Landing
accoding to an AP report in an Australian Newspaper, the tower issued a windshear warning prior to the crash...pilot elected to continue.
try google news "windshear" as copyrighted articles are not allowed to be posted.
try google news "windshear" as copyrighted articles are not allowed to be posted.
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Phuket weather is always unstable.
Having said that the UK is a lot worse.
Thailand is an easy country to fly across with very predictable weather.
We do not yet know the full details on this accident but as a private pilot I would have sat on the ground elsewhere or at the worst turned back.
CPL's employed by budget airlines do not have the same choice.
Get home itus is the biggest killer.
What I find amazing is the fact that very experienced CP pilots forget the basics and never fly small aircraft that bite in bad weather very quickly.
Having said that the UK is a lot worse.
Thailand is an easy country to fly across with very predictable weather.
We do not yet know the full details on this accident but as a private pilot I would have sat on the ground elsewhere or at the worst turned back.
CPL's employed by budget airlines do not have the same choice.
Get home itus is the biggest killer.
What I find amazing is the fact that very experienced CP pilots forget the basics and never fly small aircraft that bite in bad weather very quickly.
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Amazing amateur video, moments after crash
Incredible footage apparently shot by a survivor; also helps suggest how seconds can make the difference for survival:
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/videot/?id=1437166&ap=1
(footage after an ad)
Note: Thanks to alexmcfire for correcting my original post. The video was shot by a Swede who survived.
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/videot/?id=1437166&ap=1
(footage after an ad)
Note: Thanks to alexmcfire for correcting my original post. The video was shot by a Swede who survived.
Last edited by wideman; 18th Sep 2007 at 09:42. Reason: Correct nationality of video-taker
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So much for the emergency response ...
Anyone like to extrapolate how long it should have taken for the fire truck(s) to roll?
I wonder just how many minutes it actually took for the first responders to arrive.
I also wonder if the survivor listed in 6A had not moved back to sit with others. It seems fairly clear cut that those upfront died from the consequences of rapid deceleration and those in the back were able, in most cases, to walk away.
Anyone like to extrapolate how long it should have taken for the fire truck(s) to roll?
I wonder just how many minutes it actually took for the first responders to arrive.
I also wonder if the survivor listed in 6A had not moved back to sit with others. It seems fairly clear cut that those upfront died from the consequences of rapid deceleration and those in the back were able, in most cases, to walk away.
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Was the MD aircraft in question not equipped for a fully blind landing in zero visibility or does Phuket airport not have the necessary equipment installed?
Surely in a similar situation at say Gatwick Airport there would be no problem with landing in near non existent visibility.
Surely in a similar situation at say Gatwick Airport there would be no problem with landing in near non existent visibility.
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http://www.iltasanomat.fi/videot/?id=1437166&ap=1
Whether it's below the minima or not, is up to the investigators, I guess.
Controversial, moi?
Phuket weather is always unstable.
Having said that the UK is a lot worse.
Thailand is an easy country to fly across with very predictable weather.
We do not yet know the full details on this accident but as a private pilot I would have sat on the ground elsewhere or at the worst turned back.
Having said that the UK is a lot worse.
Thailand is an easy country to fly across with very predictable weather.
We do not yet know the full details on this accident but as a private pilot I would have sat on the ground elsewhere or at the worst turned back.
Such a sweeping generalisation about respective weather conditions is inaccurate. Rarely do we get the sort of storms in the UK which are commonplace in the Far East at certain times of the year. To then go on and declare what you would have done as a private pilot is as impossible to predict as it is irrelevant.
Was the MD aircraft in question not equipped for a fully blind landing in zero visibility or does Phuket airport not have the necessary equipment installed?
Surely in a similar situation at say Gatwick Airport there would be no problem with landing in near non existent visibility.
Surely in a similar situation at say Gatwick Airport there would be no problem with landing in near non existent visibility.
Few airports in the world have ground equipment to the required standard, usually only the major ones in developed and wealthy countries.
These threads bring out the very worst in people with so many posts made by people who want to take part in a willy waving contest when all they do is prove there ignorance, illogical thinking, immaturity or all three.
If somebody has something worthwhile to say it becomes lost in the reams of garbage and false sincerity (RIP, condolences, etc. referring to unknown people never met and probably scarcely thought about therafter) expressed by people who could do PPRuNe and its readers a favour by reading instead of posting and waiting until the true causes of this accident become known.
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Ironic
Very sad indeed.
What is ironic is that the airport just went through disaster management drills.
Page two of the Phuket Gazette September 15th - Phuket Airport disaster drill hailed a 'success'.
I have no idea how emergency response was and sure they did a great job. Its just ironic how things are sometimes.
What is ironic is that the airport just went through disaster management drills.
Page two of the Phuket Gazette September 15th - Phuket Airport disaster drill hailed a 'success'.
I have no idea how emergency response was and sure they did a great job. Its just ironic how things are sometimes.
The mouse has spoken; many a true word seeking knowledge with sentiment.
Time to revisit Managing the Threats and Errors during Approach and Landing.
Also see Safety aspects of aircraft operations in crosswind. (2001)
Time to revisit Managing the Threats and Errors during Approach and Landing.
Also see Safety aspects of aircraft operations in crosswind. (2001)
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A few thoughts
Idle speculation I guess but based on information availible
Chief pilot + newbie = Possible CRM issue
Aircraft came to rest directly opposite tower, who having been alerted to the go around would probably be watching, so maybe we should take seriously the eyewitness account of the "aircraft became unbalanced" and maybe interpret this as a stall while attempting a go around (hard bounce on runway giving to much nose up?). The accident site does not show too much evidence of forward motion or ground contact (skid)
Chief pilot + newbie = Possible CRM issue
Aircraft came to rest directly opposite tower, who having been alerted to the go around would probably be watching, so maybe we should take seriously the eyewitness account of the "aircraft became unbalanced" and maybe interpret this as a stall while attempting a go around (hard bounce on runway giving to much nose up?). The accident site does not show too much evidence of forward motion or ground contact (skid)
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N912tw
Jacdec reports that this mishap a/c was one of the original batch of twenty delivered to TWA (company tab/nose # 9012 ?); delivered in '83, went over to AA, then to storage.
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Aircraft Age??
According to Boeing's response to the crash:
The airplane, serial number 49183, Variable 80C211, was delivered to a different operator in December 1983. At last report, it had accumulated approximately 64,679 hours and 34,202 cycles.
Seems dear Mr Udom did not do the math correctly and cut the age of the aircraft in half in the media report. Also keep in mind there is the likely fact that nothing had been reported on times and cycles since this aircraft arrived in Thailand.
As to the visual effect of the video taken after the crash and what may have been present on the approach. Anyone who has spent any time in a monsoon downpour can attest that minutes and even seconds can mean the difference between some visibility and none.
Just more fuel for the fires of speculation!!!
The airplane, serial number 49183, Variable 80C211, was delivered to a different operator in December 1983. At last report, it had accumulated approximately 64,679 hours and 34,202 cycles.
Seems dear Mr Udom did not do the math correctly and cut the age of the aircraft in half in the media report. Also keep in mind there is the likely fact that nothing had been reported on times and cycles since this aircraft arrived in Thailand.
As to the visual effect of the video taken after the crash and what may have been present on the approach. Anyone who has spent any time in a monsoon downpour can attest that minutes and even seconds can mean the difference between some visibility and none.
Just more fuel for the fires of speculation!!!
Some observations from the video and other pictures:
it does look like they landed on rwy 27, no doubt about it.
You can see the smoke from the fire indicating a westerly wind of about 10 to 15 kts.
The wx to the north seems to be fairly ok, but the view to the east ( the rwy 27 approach ) does seem to have quite reduced vis in heavy rain.
It's still raining when the video was shot and the Finnish survivors are all dripping wet.
It's been a while since I've flown in HKT, but it can be a tricky place in bad wx.
I have several mates that have had a few heart stopping moments trying to land in HKT in 767's. Due to x/wind and rain.
The rwy is not grooved and QF forbid landings in mod to heavy rain.
My condolences to all, another sad day in Asian aviation for all.
Seems it might be time to actually enforce some rules.
it does look like they landed on rwy 27, no doubt about it.
You can see the smoke from the fire indicating a westerly wind of about 10 to 15 kts.
The wx to the north seems to be fairly ok, but the view to the east ( the rwy 27 approach ) does seem to have quite reduced vis in heavy rain.
It's still raining when the video was shot and the Finnish survivors are all dripping wet.
It's been a while since I've flown in HKT, but it can be a tricky place in bad wx.
I have several mates that have had a few heart stopping moments trying to land in HKT in 767's. Due to x/wind and rain.
The rwy is not grooved and QF forbid landings in mod to heavy rain.
My condolences to all, another sad day in Asian aviation for all.
Seems it might be time to actually enforce some rules.
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time of response...
Looking at the video, I guess it must have taken the person who took the film at least 60 seconds to leave the plane, get to the edge of the runway and then start filming, yet at the end of the video clip (a further 56 seconds), there still appears to be absolutely no sign of rescue services.
Sadly - from experience - this doesn't surprise me. But as a resident in Thailand and someone who flies very frequently, I find this apparently tardy response rather alarming.
Sadly - from experience - this doesn't surprise me. But as a resident in Thailand and someone who flies very frequently, I find this apparently tardy response rather alarming.