Air France

[VAFFPAX]

Funny that Berlusconi keeps saying that he has nothing against Air France KLM in the presscon when he was dead-set against the bailout offer that AFK made while Prodi & Co were in office. That man will do anything to stay in power and in the news.

But that said, I have to concur with others here that AZ won't live to the end of the year if this keeps going on. Even my Italian compatriots will actively avoid flying AZ if they can. If an Italian can't be proud of his national airline, then you know it's bad.

S.

[Henry VIII]

against European rules or am I totally missing something?

You are missing that up to now European administration has approved, or tolerated, the various fundings lavished by Italian government.

So, at the moment, they are pumping money legally.

[Just a spotter]

Aeroflot seem to be emerging as a contender again ... according to Reuters;

an Aeroflot spokesman said on Tuesday. "We are expecting the Italian side to invite us to talks. However, Aeroflot will be guided (in its decision-making) ... purely by pragmatic reasons and interests of investors," he said.

Might be a cheep way for AFL to increase their Airbus fleet. I suppose all those 154's will look very smart wearing green and red sitting in the Italian sunshine.

JAS

[fendant]

Yep, think it will be a great idea to create Aliflot and use the vintage TU's to shuttle the well behaving Russian tourists to Venice Florence Rome and Naples.

I am sure that the crook Berlusconi will come up with a ( illegal) solution to pump more money into the fledgling carrierr. He will have full support of his coalition partner Lega and reopen the Malpensa hub. He has never shown any respect to constitution or legal boundaries.

Therefore my 2cts: As soon as the new government is in office he will offer a loan at commercial conditions to AZ ( "until things are sorted out" ). Nobody else would loan one cent, but he will.
AZ will still fly and burn money by 31.12.2008

Frank

[Henry VIII]

He has never shown any respect to constitution or legal boundaries.

Curious statement, when coming from Switzerland...

[Me Myself]

He will be cunning with Vladimir !! Good God, I am laughing my head off just at the thought of Vladimir and Silvio ........saving ??? Alitalia.
Anyway, I can relax now.
Incidentally I got word yesterday that a significant number of Alitalia pilots are going though the AF interview process at this time. It looks like " patriotism " got its limits and that people are jumping off the Alitinic.

Fabio Berti, head of the Alitalia pilots union Anpac, played down the significance of the statement, insisting that it was just a "snapshot" of the state of the deal and that "absolutely nothing changes."

Dear Fabio

Has " being in denial " any meaning to you ?? You're right about one thing though..............." absolutly nothing changes "

[Rwy in Sight]

Dysag,

In a way AZ is the national icon, very stylish but lacks some efficiency, just like some older Italian cars or as a female (non italian) friend once told about that Italian guys are good at chatting up but failed elsewhere. (we aim to keep PPRuNe child safe).

When forecasting the future of AZ bear in mind two things: Initially governments are extremely good when they want to be and second spare some thoughts about who benefits from maintaining AZ in such a situation.

The EU authorities would be hard pressed to identify all the illegal means of financing used to maintain the airline flying.

Rwy in Sight

[fendant]

They are faster than I thought:

Just heard on the evening news:

The outgoing government is going to grant a 300 Mio € loan to AZ in order to keep it afloat. "this will give the incoming government more time to work out a 100% Italian solution for our national airline".

Frank

Assuming they burn between 1.5 and 2.0 Mio € per day this would give them time until end 2008.

[VAFFPAX]

Originally Posted by Henry VIII

Curious statement, when coming from Switzerland...

How's that... AFAIK Switzerland is very much compliant with legal boundaries and constitutionality. But what YOU consider legal and what THEY consider legal are two different things.

S.

[md4490]

..I think we can all relax now...the AF deal was a stinky one to begin with...I am more than glad it did not go through....
The first rabbit is out of the hat...let's wait and see for the next

[PAXboy]

All quotes from The Independent of 23rd April 2008.

Last night, Mr Prodi's outgoing government held an emergency cabinet meeting to discuss the crisis and announced a €300m bridge loan to the airline, in defiance of the EU, to be repaid by 31 December, to stop the airline going bust on Mr Prodi's watch.

Alitalia's imminent collapse is Mr Berlusconi's fault ...

Alitalia is losing €1m (£800,000) per day and the Italian government has been forbidden by the EU to lend it any more money.

La Repubblica yesterday calculated that Alitalia had cost the country €15bn over the past 15 years, "or €270 for every citizen, newborn babies included".

The new (temporary) loan

... adds a further €5.13 per citizen to the carrier's bill.

It is a wonderfully amusing read:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/eu...cy-814065.html

[Me Myself]

I think we can all relax now...the AF deal was a stinky one to begin with...I am more than glad it did not go through....
The first rabbit is out of the hat...let's wait and see for the next

MD

Drop me a line when you're out of a job.
It seems that a significant number of your colleagues are flocking to Paris to interview......... and seem to be rather successfull too. All jumping off the Alitinic !!! That's how relax everyone seems to be. Somehow AZ isn't all that attractive to them anymore.
One would really wonder why now uncle Silvio is going to be the heroe of the day.

What was it you said ?? Berlusconi was going to call Sarkozy and the whole thing would be settled ?? OUCH !!!

[main_dog]

oh boy

Drop me a line when you're out of a job.

There you go again, Me Myself, that's just the kind of comment that makes you so endearing

It seems that a significant number of your colleagues are flocking to Paris to interview......... and seem to be rather successfull too.

Surprise surprise, AF pilots aren't the only ones who can fly... it turns out we can too...

Now if only our managers could manage and our governments could govern...

[Me Myself]

Main Dog

Do you expect me to get all teary ?? Got to be kidding !

Surprise surprise, AF pilots aren't the only ones who can fly... it turns out we can too...

Who said so ?? I don't give a s...t if your comrades give it a go.........as long as they don't export AZ, Berlusconi, the North leage, mafia ways, it's fine with me.
I understand your flying days are long gone, are they not ??

[main_dog]

oh dear

Do you expect me to get all teary ?? Got to be kidding !

No, I don't expect anyone to get all teary, least of all you... what I would like, although cannot expect (especially from your ilk), is a bit more solidarity between pilots... but I always have been a hopeless dreamer

If I promise you my colleagues will not bring their Berlusconi, mafia, and northern league ways with them will you promise me not to feed them baguettes and contaminate them with your Le Pen, French-army-in-Algeria, banlieu-burning-youth and whole-country-striking-at-the-drop-of-a-hat ways?

And why do you bring out the worst in me, Me Myself?

MD

PS Nope, I'm bang in the middle of my career

[Evileyes]

Referee warning..... drop the personal invective and back to the topic please.

Thanks,
The Mods

[Me Myself]

And why do you bring out the worst in me, Me Myself?

How about because it's simply what you are ??? In basic psychology it's called " not taking responsability " . I can send you a few good book references. One of them is actually telling " Look at what you made me do " You'll love it. I'm 1000 miles away, I wish I was that powerfull. I would maybe get the loto numbers right !!

Anyway, back to the topic. What I'm smiling about ( sort of ) is to see on one hand the pilots union still dead certain AZ will just go on until the cows come home, Berlusconi cautiously announcing 7000 jobs will have to go and at the same time pilots silently flocking to Paris to interview for a job. Yes Main_Dog, I find this rather ironic.
When the dust settles, no matter how many weeks/ months it takes, we'll do the body counts and I can promise you the following. Your pilots union leaders will have negociated themselves a sweet and cosy little deal, the french speaking hopefully will have a job with AF and the rest will be looking for a chair once the music stops. Do not lecture me on solidarity.
Where I come from I say what I do and I do what I say.

PS Nope, I'm bang in the middle of my career

You could have fooled me !

[main_dog]

Do not lecture me on solidarity.

I won't as clearly you have none... if your posts in this thread are anything to go by, you're also rather prejudiced against Italians, which is the main thing I take issue with. It's hard enough being governed by incompetent fools (our innumerable governments) and managed by thiefs (AZ's innumerable managers) without having to hear from our "cousins from across the alps" things like

Why should I relish the prospect of working with a bunch of clowns.

BUT, as the mods rightly pointed out, your prejudices or my irritation with them don't add much to this thread, SO, apologies to everyone for the drift and back on-topic: will the 300 million euro loan be allowed to go through by the EU? And if it does go through, will it be accompanied by the meaningful structural changes at AZ that would allow AZ to return to profit?

Oil prices are through 117 dollars a barrel, five airlines folded in the last few weeks and even airlines like RYR are planning to ground or lease out aircraft this winter, so as for AZ's chances I'm not holding my breath...

[Me Myself]

will the 300 million euro loan be allowed to go through by the EU? And if it does go through, will it be accompanied by the meaningful structural changes at AZ that would allow AZ to return to profit?

You will get your 300 millions, no doubt and probably 300 more next year as Silvio will probably tell Brussel to s.d o.f in his flamboyant style. The rest is up to you but if you don't get investors in ( and they will have to use the chop ) 300 mil buys you a little less than 300 days, just to function the way you do now. Forget buying new aircrafts which is what you badly need with a barrel at 117 $.

Prejudice ??? Nope mate. I know I would be totally unhappy working there, but that's me and that's why I never considered staying more than the lovely time I had each time I went. I am just the type of guy who just likes to know where he stands and hates drama. No sense of superiority in the least. Just personal taste.That's why I've always prefered northern cultures. Nothing wrong with that is there ?
But allow me a sprinkle of doubt about your nationality. Somehow I see you as ex Ansett, did a hint of 767 for AZ and went on to doing something else and apart from flying for Air One ( and even I wouldn't wish you to ) I can't see what you'd be doing there. If we're cousins, I think it must be on the saxon side.

Unfortunatly I don't see much difference between Sarkozy or Berlusconi and that's why I count my blessings each day thinking of how fortunate we are to be a private compagny and have KLM alongside.They no doubt, had more than their say in this story and I'm not sure where we'd be today had they not been around.

[The SSK]

One of the UK papers this week (Independent?) pointed out that over the last 15 years Alitalia had cost every Italian - man, woman and child -
€270. This loan has just added another €5 to that. At what point do the taxpayers say 'enough'?