SOUTHEND - 2

[pug]

most other operators can do it like the thomson flight from leeds to tenerife thay bus crew from manchester which is less money but jet2 dont have a base in the south so thay would ether have to put crew up in hotels

So by your logic should I assume that all of the airlines that put crew up in HOTAC on a regular basis are losing/not making that much money? Also the routes you suggested are more likely you say, but they are completely out of character for Jet2!?

Either this is another one of those rumours like the NWI one (maintenance related hence PA-31 visiting), or there is something more solid in it. As I say, if there is any truth in this then the rumour posted by sxflyer is by far the most plausible.

As an aside, have Jet2 since closed their STN crew base?

[Chitty]

i think jet2 have closed their STN crew base coz they dont have an aircraft based there any more but i do know that thay have cargo crew based at exter for the mail flights but there is no cabin crew based in the south and i didnt say an airlines that put crew up in hotels on a regular basis are losing/not making that much money i am saying that no airline would put crew up for 2/3 nights in a hotel unless it was an loug hall flight like ba flights to singapour or new york where crew would by out of hours but thay would only put them up in a hotel fot a night or 2

[pug]

i am saying that no airline would put crew up for 2/3 nights in a hotel unless it was an loug hall flight like ba flights to singapour or new york where crew would by out of hours but thay would only put them up in a hotel fot a night or 2

And I'm saying that some do exactly that.

[Chitty]

name one low cost airline that puts its cabin crew up in hotels over night and which has an aircraft based at an airport for 3 day

[pug]

Not strictly low-cost, but certainly in a similar position is Thomas Cook, and I know that in the past they have done exactly that at HUY for instance... In fact when EZY operated from DSA last year, all of the crew were LPL based and in fact put up in HOTAC at DSA.. I'm sure other people will know of more that do exactly that.

[rareair]

Chitty,

You've compared what you feel Jet 2 will do with what Thomson do.

Could you also let us know average age and balance sheet values of the fleets and the finance position for each aircraft?

Also details on crew conditions of employment, arrangements with airports and anything else you have to hand.

The truth is it's impossible to compare different operations with each other. when you don't KNOW about their cost base.

Compare these two airlines flying leisure routes from 2 airports serving the same metropolitan area to the same holiday destination approx 2 hours distant.

Airline 1 flies fairly new A319s.
Airline 2 flies 20 year old MD8Xs.

Airline 1 sells flights direct and also tickets through a GDS. It does have click throughs on its web page for car hire, hotels, but many customers don't use these.
Airline 2 sells many package holidays and also point to point flights. It only sells direct.

How do the accountants allocate costs and revenues in each business? It's likely to be very different.

Also what is the cost to each airline of a plane being parked on the tarmac doing nothing? Is there any benefit to be gained flying the plane for revenue which whilst covering the marginal costs doesn't cover the allocated fixed costs?

Actually the examples I am thinking of are F9 and G4 in the USA.

F9 flies DEN-LAS many times daily.
G4 flies from 2 small airports 50 miles out of Denver (FNL and COS) to LAS a few times a week.

Both continue the routes and so appear to be making money.

[pug]

rareair, well put.

[Barling Magna]

Chitty wrote: and i think that there will be to much competition from airlines flying from near by stansted where flights would problay be cheaper


I'm not sure about that. Essex has a population approaching 2 million, and for 1 million of them Southend is closer than Stansted. SEN's rail link also makes it attractive for East Enders.

[righthandrule]

This is a rumour network, but seriously guys there needs to be some common sense applied here.

Let’s start off operationally; the reason why Jet2's Piper has been down in Southend recently is to ferry crew to and from the airport for operational purposes. Those Jet2 757's that have been visiting are not to 'test the water' - they are at SEN for C Checks and painting! The Piper comes in to collect the crews that have positioned the aircraft in along with dropping off engineers. The routes mentioned are totally unrealistic, especially on 757 aircraft. There are performance restrictions on the 757's from LBA with a runways that’s nearly 2,300 meters long -I’m sorry but a fully laden 757 cannot operate 4-5 hour sectors from a 1,600 meter runway on a regular basis. I'm not saying operationally it's not possible, but for a low cost airline operating flights with a well over 80% load factor with tight turnarounds - this is not going to happen week in, week out. An slice of wind/rain/snow and it will have to divert.

Commercially it's a joke. No airline in the right mind would operate 3 routes from an airport that is hundreds of miles from the nearest crew base. If Jet2 did ever (they won't) operate routes from SEN, it would have to be routes such as ORK, JER, CDG, BFS, TLS or DUS which could be operated on 'W' legs from existing bases i.e. LBA-CDG-SEN-CDG-LBA. Jet2's cost base is so tight that HOTAC crew at SEN would make the whole operational a massive loss leader. Next, why would Jet2 start routes that are very expensive to operate (long 757 routes) from a completely untested airport. If anything, they would open shorter routes with less exposure to test the market. You cannot make money on flying 757's to Bodrum, Tenerife etc unless they are full. Flying a 737 to Barcelona or Paris with a 60-70% load factor is possibly acceptable, hence why easyJet are starting relatively short routes.

Jet2's most southern base is East Midlands - no one in London has even heard of Jet2. Brand identity for Jet2 in the north of England/Scotland is good, in a lot of places it is a household name considering they are the largest airline by far to focus on that geographical area. Moving into a completely different market - which is already highly saturated, is a crazy move. Yields have taken a hit even at Jet2's most established bases with loyal customers, this is not the time to make stupid decisions to open up random, speculative routes. Overall capacity for Jet2 is to increase by 13% for 2012 - this is accounted for with 1 extra aircraft at each of the following: GLA, EMA and NCL as well as increased capacity at MAN with 737-800 aircraft replacing 737-300's.

I think this rumour has come from a spotter at the end of the runway at SEN that has seen a 757 come in followed by the Piper. I'm sorry guys but Jet2 do not operate into non base UK airports, it's not our business model and never will be. We work on a simple, operational structure where a MINIMUM of 2 aircraft are based at an airport and they fly on routes to/from that airport only. The amount of 'W' routes Jet2 operate (out of 38 aircraft) can be counted on one hand - and they are all to existing bases. I.e. LBA-LRH-BFS-LRH-LBA. SEN will not feature on the Jet2 route map.

[pug]

Thank you for clearing that up Righthandrule.. However I believe my argument still stands, in that Jet2 would be highly unlikely to operate those city type routes if they were to even set up at SEN. If they based there (and you say they only operate from their bases in the UK), then they would only operate routes like they do from their other small bases..

Even so, a similar rumour surfaced about NWI last year due to the PA-31 visiting, clearly the same has happened here.

[Barling Magna]

Well, that's the end of that rumour then. Still, it was fun while it lasted. Hopefully the Germanair rumour has more substance?

SEN's extension will give a runway length of 1905 metres, with a TODA of 1799 metres, so a 757 would struggle to carry a useful load beyond short distances.

[Expressflight]

I'll still be surprised if this is the end of this 'rumour'.

I have heard from four different sources that Jet2 is the airline in question (not all of them originating from SEN) including details of what the first destination will be - and it's none of those mentioned here in other people's posts. Other details obtained also suggested that things were at an advanced stage towards making an announcement.

I do agree that Jet2 would be a surprise but let's wait to see if anything is actually announced by the end of the year.

[EI-BUD]

Hi rightandrule,
your last post sounds very realistic, I cant see Jet2 coming into an untested market and where it is not well established and where the market is saturated. From what I can see Jet2 is probably the most differetiated model of the LOCOs operating in the UK, take BFS for eg it got off intensely competitive routes where there was over capacity and left the battle to EI & EZY, they focus on Freight and for passengers fly to destinations that are niche, probably high yield, low frequency, summer markets and for the markets that they do serve in competition with EZY/EI/WW, there is a big push on Jet2Holidays. In summary my point is how could Jet2 differentiate in a London Market?

The only way I could see Jet2 coming to SEN would be on the back of a cargo contract with a 733 QC, is there frieght operations at SEN? and if so is this the plan, if there is one?

EI-BUD

[tophat27dt]

Is Jet2 also not an airline available for charter work? Nobody has mentioned the possibility that a holiday company is chartering one of their aircraft from some holiday flights from SEN. I don't think there is a set-up for cargo at the moment.

[Narrow Runway]

Chitty

Wizzair HOTAC cabin crew and pilots in Luton to operate 3 or 4 day rotations.

Historically, KTW and SOF crews.

They are LOW, LOW cost.

[tws123]

Germania

It appears that Germania will be operating the flights to Cologne-Bonn (CGN) and to the Romanian city of Craiova (CRA). No dates mentioned yet or what aircraft they will use.

[mart901]

Hi tws123,

Where did you see that?

[vulcanised]

Here's a bit of silliness

Calls for Southend Airport to be re-named after Dr Feelgood's singer (From Echo)

[tws123]

Germania

Hi mart901, its not the most reliable source, but a flight website (flights idealo) states that the current airlines flying from Southend are EasyJet, Aer Arann, and Germania. I had a look at it, and on the 4th page of routes it has Cologne-Bonn and Craiova then underneath "with Germania". These routes do not appear bookable but it does seem to suggest that they are the airline to operate it (of course none of this is confirmed yet).

[LTNman]

While It’s good to get excited about expansion its worth not get carried away and remember airports like Sheffield, Coventry, Teeside, Blackpool etc. The airlines came and the airlines went.