SOUTHEND - 2
Join Date: Jun 2011
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ANR doesn't have the infrastructure or the runway length to handle anything from EZY or SEN. And there is a very active local environmental lobby against further expansion of the airport due to it's immediate proximity to residential areas.
Cityjet's main selling point to LCY flights is Canary Wharf on the doorstep. Can't see them turning to SEN as a preferred destination, except for diverts.
Cityjet's main selling point to LCY flights is Canary Wharf on the doorstep. Can't see them turning to SEN as a preferred destination, except for diverts.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Europa
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Southend versus Eurostar
I work in Brussels.
I live in Ostend.
Thinking of the last year:
All these trips were with the Eurostar, most on the expensive side of cheap.
If there was an airlink from Southend to Ostend it would be all my Christmases coming at once. Although I admit I would still sometimes travel to London at the end of my work day (in Brussels) with the Eurostar, but otherwise be an active user of the service.
That said I think an Easyjet A319 daily on this route would be too much capacity. Flybe or Aer Arann would be better suited.
I live in Ostend.
Thinking of the last year:
- I needed to travel to Romford for a funeral
- I needed to travel to Stratford for work
- I travelled to central London for a weekend break
- A friend and his wife from Walthamstow (East London) came to visit Ostend
- My cousin and his girlfriend living near Liverpool Street train station (London) came to visit Ostend
- My aunt and 4 friends from Romford came to Bruges, and briefly Ostend
All these trips were with the Eurostar, most on the expensive side of cheap.
If there was an airlink from Southend to Ostend it would be all my Christmases coming at once. Although I admit I would still sometimes travel to London at the end of my work day (in Brussels) with the Eurostar, but otherwise be an active user of the service.
That said I think an Easyjet A319 daily on this route would be too much capacity. Flybe or Aer Arann would be better suited.
Join Date: Jan 2005
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EZY Long Term....
I'm afraid I concur, Flybe might have been a better fit, were they courted, will EZY fill a A319, if not then 2012 hello, 2013 goodbye.....?
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Expressflight/jabird
I never seriously expected SEN/ANR - I was just musing. However, if I got to start up 'MyWish' airline (slogan "Makes crap commercial sense but I wanna go there..."), ANR would be on it.
I never seriously expected SEN/ANR - I was just musing. However, if I got to start up 'MyWish' airline (slogan "Makes crap commercial sense but I wanna go there..."), ANR would be on it.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Ef, are you talking about a certain motor manufacturer with large plants at both ends of the SEN-CGN route?
Have friends who worked for them, but they had their own airline doing STN-CGN. Has that gone?
CR - we can all have our personal wish list for routes - mine would be direct CVT-NEV but I think that could only be done in a learjet!
As for the cost, I do wonder how much ES are taking advantage of their effective monopoly and how much that might change with open access. I think SEN - OST is a long shot even if it would make a lovely filler for the likes of BE. I doubt Bruges will ever see direct ES, whereas ANR / RTM are possible on the way to AMS. However, the beancounters would still look at BRU first over OST, as it is a much bigger market, but they'd then say it is hard to compete against direct ES / rivals - so we're back to square 1!
Have friends who worked for them, but they had their own airline doing STN-CGN. Has that gone?
CR - we can all have our personal wish list for routes - mine would be direct CVT-NEV but I think that could only be done in a learjet!
As for the cost, I do wonder how much ES are taking advantage of their effective monopoly and how much that might change with open access. I think SEN - OST is a long shot even if it would make a lovely filler for the likes of BE. I doubt Bruges will ever see direct ES, whereas ANR / RTM are possible on the way to AMS. However, the beancounters would still look at BRU first over OST, as it is a much bigger market, but they'd then say it is hard to compete against direct ES / rivals - so we're back to square 1!
Join Date: Sep 2006
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NB - no free onward rail travel in Belgium anymore on a Eurostar ticket! You now have to pay a supplement at the time of booking.
Last edited by johnnychips; 24th Jun 2011 at 20:41.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Just watched the video. The runway seems a tad narrow and does not appear to be the standard width of most airport runways. Also the first taxiway shown also seems very narrow. Will the new ILS be CAT 3? If not fog and cross wind landings could all affect Easyjet’s Southend operations.
It's the sheer cost to Eurostar of airport-style security at each station which they are required to provide for anyone travelling through the Channel Tunnel at the boarding station. They judge demand from Antwerp and Rotterdam makes this not worthwhile. For the same reason, after the station had ben physically built at Stratford International in London for them, Eurostar decided not to serve there due to this cost. Ashford in Kent was a close miss (proposed to close to Eurostar due to this, but finally retained). The security requirement is government imposed as part of the Channel Tunnel oversight.
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Don't think anyone at LTN is afraid of competition and having a narrow runway, half width taxiways and I suspect a mere CAT 1 ILS does not bother easyjet, as they can easily divert to another London airport when Southend is out of limits.
Easyjet has just left Belfast City Airport with its restrictions so we will have to see how Southend does in the coming years and whether Stansted tries to get Easyjet back in force.
Easyjet has just left Belfast City Airport with its restrictions so we will have to see how Southend does in the coming years and whether Stansted tries to get Easyjet back in force.
LTNman
The runway width is 37m (rather than the 'standard' 45m) and is the same as at SOU where it certainly doesn't seem to cause any problems, and all taxiway widths are 15m (Code C). The runway width actually proved something of an advantage in getting the runway extension approved as it precludes both commercial widebody ops and the possibility of any future further runway extension. These facts kept sensible opposition to the plans to a minimum.
The ILS will be CAT I with 'pulse' approach lighting and centreline lighting, with an OCH of 150ft I seem to recall being the planned number. It's extremely rare at SEN to have a cloudbase below 200ft and its fog record is also very good. LTN obviously needs CAT III with its persistent on-the-deck cloudbase and frequently low met vis conditions.
Easyjet are obviously fully aware of the situation.
jabird
The Ford STN-CGN was switched to SEN in Summer 2006 (I think it was) and operated twice daily with their own RJ100 crewed by Flightline. The service was withdrawn on the instructions of Ford USA in December 2008 at the time of the major US motor manufacturers' near meltdown. This coincided with Flightline's demise. Since then Ford use the Germanwings STN-CGN scheduled service and the edict still stands that they are not allowed to operate their own charter service. Thus any future SEN-CGN would operate as a scheduled service with Ford buying space on it. It will need a jet on the route at Fords' insistence, so I understand, and a plan exists to use F100 equipment.
The runway width is 37m (rather than the 'standard' 45m) and is the same as at SOU where it certainly doesn't seem to cause any problems, and all taxiway widths are 15m (Code C). The runway width actually proved something of an advantage in getting the runway extension approved as it precludes both commercial widebody ops and the possibility of any future further runway extension. These facts kept sensible opposition to the plans to a minimum.
The ILS will be CAT I with 'pulse' approach lighting and centreline lighting, with an OCH of 150ft I seem to recall being the planned number. It's extremely rare at SEN to have a cloudbase below 200ft and its fog record is also very good. LTN obviously needs CAT III with its persistent on-the-deck cloudbase and frequently low met vis conditions.
Easyjet are obviously fully aware of the situation.
jabird
The Ford STN-CGN was switched to SEN in Summer 2006 (I think it was) and operated twice daily with their own RJ100 crewed by Flightline. The service was withdrawn on the instructions of Ford USA in December 2008 at the time of the major US motor manufacturers' near meltdown. This coincided with Flightline's demise. Since then Ford use the Germanwings STN-CGN scheduled service and the edict still stands that they are not allowed to operate their own charter service. Thus any future SEN-CGN would operate as a scheduled service with Ford buying space on it. It will need a jet on the route at Fords' insistence, so I understand, and a plan exists to use F100 equipment.
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It's extremely rare at SEN to have a cloudbase below 200ft and its fog record is also very good. LTN obviously needs CAT III with its persistent on-the-deck cloudbase and frequently low met vis conditions.
I think your description of that particular snow event just about sums it up. Easyjet A319 LGW diversion stranded for 3 days I seem to recall. But we don't talk about that now of course!
Expressflight
From your description I assume the ILS and associated lighting will permit operations to landing minima of DH 200ft and RVR 550m. I agree that 200ft is unlikely to be an issue, but 550m RVR certainly will cause problems from time to time. SEN's fog record may be good, but it's not that good. It may not suffer from LTN's topographical issues, but it experiences radiation fogs like most other UK airports and also coastal advection fogs.
A pity therefore that the "new" airport will not support Cat2/3 operations. Presumably this was investigated and rejected - on the grounds of cost, or site limitations and practicability ? Of course it can be argued that LCY and SOU have managed very well on Cat 1 only.
Crosswinds should not be an issue. In my experience the 757 was restricted only on a 30m wide runway, not 37m as at SEN. The A320 had no such restriction and I would expect the A319 to be similar.
A pity therefore that the "new" airport will not support Cat2/3 operations. Presumably this was investigated and rejected - on the grounds of cost, or site limitations and practicability ? Of course it can be argued that LCY and SOU have managed very well on Cat 1 only.
Crosswinds should not be an issue. In my experience the 757 was restricted only on a 30m wide runway, not 37m as at SEN. The A320 had no such restriction and I would expect the A319 to be similar.
Tagron
Yes, DH will obviously depend upon legislation and company SOPs but the OCH at least shouldn't the deciding factor as it would be without those improvements.
I don't think CAT II is possible for technical reasons rather than cost, although I'm not privvy to that information. The IRVR system will be capable of meeting sub CAT I minima of less than 550m if the airline's fleet is so equipped, but I can't say I've ever come across that in practice. Departure minima can of course be considerably less.
There's no getting away from the fact that there will be diversions from time to time but not to an operationally significant extent I would suggest.
Yes, DH will obviously depend upon legislation and company SOPs but the OCH at least shouldn't the deciding factor as it would be without those improvements.
I don't think CAT II is possible for technical reasons rather than cost, although I'm not privvy to that information. The IRVR system will be capable of meeting sub CAT I minima of less than 550m if the airline's fleet is so equipped, but I can't say I've ever come across that in practice. Departure minima can of course be considerably less.
There's no getting away from the fact that there will be diversions from time to time but not to an operationally significant extent I would suggest.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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WHBM,
There was a story the yesterday about a Moroccon being picked up because he had two tickets - one to Lille, then one from Lille to London. Does that mean he wouldn't have had to go through the security if he showed his first ticket?
I have used the Spanish AVE a few times where they also have security screening - but are there also border control agents at the boarding point for ES - or just at SPI? (Should really cut to rail forum!)
There was a story the yesterday about a Moroccon being picked up because he had two tickets - one to Lille, then one from Lille to London. Does that mean he wouldn't have had to go through the security if he showed his first ticket?
I have used the Spanish AVE a few times where they also have security screening - but are there also border control agents at the boarding point for ES - or just at SPI? (Should really cut to rail forum!)
Join Date: Jun 2011
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jabird,
passengers making intra-Schengen zone journeys on Eurostar from Brussels or Paris to Lille or Calais-Fréthun still have to go through the security and passport checks at Brussels Midi or Paris Nord, including passing through both the Schengen zone exit check run by either the Belgian authorities in Brussels or the French in Paris and then the UK Border Agency checkpoints (such outposts exist at both Brussels Midi and Paris Nord, and also Lille and Calais-Fréthun, though the latter two aren't really relevant to this discussion).
The UK Border Agency check for such passengers is apparently a bit contentious with the Belgians in particular, as it effectively acts as a border checkpoint within the Schengen zone and furthermore is operated by a state from outside the Schengen zone (the UK), but nonetheless it remains in place - it basically means that any passengers travelling from Brussels (or Paris) to Lille or Calais-Fréthun needs to show their national ID card to the UKBA (something they wouldn't have to do if travelling on trains other than the Eurostar).
I don't know about this specific incident, but at a guess the Moroccan either didn't have any suitable ID, or their ID was deemed suspicious when they were going through the securoty and passport/ID checks before boarding in Brussels or Paris.
passengers making intra-Schengen zone journeys on Eurostar from Brussels or Paris to Lille or Calais-Fréthun still have to go through the security and passport checks at Brussels Midi or Paris Nord, including passing through both the Schengen zone exit check run by either the Belgian authorities in Brussels or the French in Paris and then the UK Border Agency checkpoints (such outposts exist at both Brussels Midi and Paris Nord, and also Lille and Calais-Fréthun, though the latter two aren't really relevant to this discussion).
The UK Border Agency check for such passengers is apparently a bit contentious with the Belgians in particular, as it effectively acts as a border checkpoint within the Schengen zone and furthermore is operated by a state from outside the Schengen zone (the UK), but nonetheless it remains in place - it basically means that any passengers travelling from Brussels (or Paris) to Lille or Calais-Fréthun needs to show their national ID card to the UKBA (something they wouldn't have to do if travelling on trains other than the Eurostar).
I don't know about this specific incident, but at a guess the Moroccan either didn't have any suitable ID, or their ID was deemed suspicious when they were going through the securoty and passport/ID checks before boarding in Brussels or Paris.
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Train services cancelled 'due to heat'
Sounds like we need summer resilience as well...
The Southend to Liverpool Street line is also hit with a total of 35 trains affected.