Weather, BAA, LHR, Xmas, BBC, Fog, BA, etc. Rants (merged)

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

cwatters: I speak for all airline staff when I say that they'll be upset about having to send flights with some seats empty. However, given the inordinate length of the check-in queues, plus the current security arrangements, just getting passengers to the gates is equivalent to working a miracle. At some stage, the doors will have to close in order for the aircraft to meet its ATC slot, full or not.

I too think that the Antipodean gentleman's 'kicking' remark is fairly mild. "You snotty-nosed Limey purp!! Get me on that Goddam airplane!!" is one of the more memorable (and printable) forms of abuse that I've received in similar circumstances. (Yes, he was from New York, or thereabouts.)

[silverelise]

If this fog episode has shown us anything it is IMO the slim margins within which the whole Heathrow operation exists. The system runs so close to limits normally that as soon as bad weather reduces flow rates there is massive disruption. In a peverse way it's a credit to the people who keep the machine running so smoothly so often that it takes something like this to highlight something which we take for granted is running on such a knife edge. The train system and tube system in London is run in a similar way - when its all running fine you take it for granted and its only when there is a disruption that the whole system collapses and you realise how fragile the whole thing was in the first place.
Ultimately it's the governments fault but not this governments. The trouble is the longer we leave it the more we will just continue to paper over the cracks.
In the case of aviation unless they sanction second runways at Gatwick and Stanstead and further expansion at Heathrow then situations like this "bit of fog" (no belittling intended) will constantly highlight the United Kingdom as a third world country.

[Two's in]

Interesting that Denver has been shut down for 3 days due to snow, United and Frontier's schedules and positioning will be trashed for days, and yet somehow the public here seem to understand that the Wx is a function of someone a bit higher up the org chart than a BA or BAA Exec. Yes people are frustrated, yes people are angry, but why does the UK need someone to "blame". Too long on the Welfare tit to know any better I suppose.

[occasional]

In the case of aviation unless they sanction second runways at Gatwick and Stanstead and further expansion at Heathrow .......

Far more sensible would be to scrap the monopoly which benefits from the fact that passengers from all over the UK are transitted through the airport shopping malls of SE England.

[PAXboy]

tilewood

Lords King & Marshall turned round a union ridden, over staffed throwback to the 1970's, into a world class airline.

Yes they did and then they ruined their reputation, along with that of some of the staff. What I was saying is that we should not think that they were altogether wonderful. They are the reason that BA has been my second choice for travel for some 15 years and I am not the only one.

However I am sure there are plenty who would like it to go back to being Britain's answer to Aeroflot!

Eh??? I don't think that for a momnent and have never heard anyone suggest it! They do however, want the airline to return to the levels of service and scope of destinations that it had ten years ago.


silverelise

The system runs so close to limits normally that as soon as bad weather reduces flow rates there is massive disruption.

Yes, that is a well known fact.

In a peverse way it's a credit to the people who keep the machine running so smoothly so often

It is not a perverse credit - it is an actual credit and one that many are aware of. If you think of the days when one of the runways is closed for even an hour, leave alone a day, the back-log takes a long time to clear.

The train system and tube system in London is run in a similar way

Correct. All governments of the past 30 years (and probably longer) have all banked on the staff to keep the merde and the rotating blades separate.


occasional

Far more sensible would be to scrap the monopoly which benefits from the fact that passengers from all over the UK are transitted through the airport shopping malls of SE England.

I cannot see how it makes any differance. If LHR is owned by one company who do nothing elses it will still be first choice for the majority and over subscribed. The only way out of the chaos is to have a third runway but only a VERY limited increase in a/c movements. Say an increase of 33% and then the a/c on approach won't have to hold all the time (saving tons and tons of fuel and time) and then there will be spare capacity for when one of the actives has to be closed or, some fog.

[Orvil]

Hi,
I think this situation is a national disgrace. BAA should be broken up. They should have been better prepared. After all the incidents in the last few years (Gate Gourmet/Terrorist Incidents), a plan of action should of been acted straight away, preventing such a mess.
Here's some suggestions:-
Set up marques for destinations (not airlines), then empty flights wouldn't exist as people could be found to fill them up.
Airlines should now be able to in this day and age text all pax to specific flights. If advertiser and scammers can send me texts why not airlines? The technology is there why not use it?
Sack the peolple in charge.
Make it an airport again.
In the future, this will happen again. The govt haven't got the balls to do anything as they're in hock with big business. The only winner I can see is SRB and Virgin. I predict that he'll swollow up BMI in the next 12 months.
So when this happens again He'll move his pax around the country on His trains to airports at minimal cost. Eg, London to Manchester, flight cancelled put them on the train! BA will be wrong footed (again) and will have to pay a premium to use the same service. He'll also be able work the long haul operation around the train arrival times.
The futures Orange? No a lady in Red Swimsuit!
Merry Christmas
Orvil

OOps, slightly off track (no pun intended)

[Gonzo]

Expansion at Heathrow (third runway, mixed mode etc) would have only made this week far worse than it has been. Does anyone really think that BAA will build a third runway and [B]not[B]fill all the slots as soon as it can, but leave some quiet periods of the day as 'firebreaks'?

[M.Mouse]

Orvil

You are sadly deluded if you believe what you have just written.

[harpic]

Heathrow's problems hidden by fog

From the DT today ..............

Heathrow's problems hidden by fog

Cancelled flights, packed terminals, angry passengers, ruined holidays. The folk who run Heathrow airport will smile with relief as they raise their glasses in a silent toast of congratulations. Because they got away with it.

Link

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m...questid=425598

[DUB-GREG]

Interesting slant on the whole thing... how true it is, thats another story!

Good read though!

[bilderberger]

Having flown out of Heathrow for many years I don't doubt the truth of this piece. In fact it's probably more true than the author realises.

[View From The Ground]

Very True

The DT has it spot on...an astute bit of observation...he is quite right that the tents were going to go up even before the fog hit, to manage pax loads in T1. I also experienced way back in September a 90 minute wait for my baggage in T1, so this issue has been going on for some time without resolution.
Although a break up of the BAA is a good idea, if they still hold the ace card of LHR it will I am afraid be a largely pointless exercise. The only way to ensure true competition would be to have different Companies managing each Terminal. Unfortunately this is an operational impossibility unless someone much brighter than me can think of a way to make it work.
In truth the frontline staff of both organisations do a reasonable job, given the mismanagement that they are lumbered with.

[Getoutofmygalley]

Orvil

Do you know how many different destinations LHR serves? You would need marques from Heathrow right up the piccadilly line to Central London if you had marques for the destinations, rather than the way it has been done.

Text messaging is a fine idea, but at this time of year you can not guarantee a sent text going through straight away. I am sure everyone with a mobile phone has experienced a text delay of a few hours (usually at busy periods) - so it can not be deemed as a reliable piece of technology. Who would be responsible for the text message failure? the airline? The mobile phone service provider?

[occasional]

Far more sensible would be to scrap the monopoly which benefits from the fact that passengers from all over the UK are transitted through the airport shopping malls of SE England.


As a passenger who has spent the last 30 years transiting through London airports because of the inadequacy of flights from elsewhere in Britain, I have to suggest that there is considerable doubt about the real necessity for new London runways.

For example, it makes no sense at all that until very recently, on many days, there were no flights at all from Scotland to Malaga, and yet one could choose from over 50 from London to the same destination.

The part played by BAA and its predecessors in this is probably no worse than idleness, but when they start claiming that new runways are needed it is appropriate to consider why they have apparently failed to examine more sensible alternatives.

[Liam82]

Sometimes as we know the problem with airlines not giving passengers information is they to do not know whats going on themselves, not in every case, but some.

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

Originally Posted by View From The Ground

...he is quite right that the tents were going to go up even before the fog hit....

Ahhh, tents at Heathrow. We come full circle. Weren't there tents at Heathrow when the airport first opened in the late 1940s because part of the original terminal wasn't ready ?

[BIGBATMAN]

The tents would normally go up because chrismas tends to be busy and tends to attract people to arrive alot earlier becuase they are told by the press its christmas they need more time!! therefore increasing the passenger figure at the airport at anyone time and filling up the terminals.

Also the staff know that is going to be crap and go sick, stop O/T, only go in when they a rostered who wants crap at work if you can avoid it by just doing what your rostered!!
And them who do have a bad time late breaks, etc, then they get the understandable hassle from the passengers. I dont blame the staff leaving!!

The fog was known about at the airport at least a good 24 hours before it arrived at least at the airport, even the weather people on the tv got this one right!!

Maybe if all them years of public reviews about T5 were not wasted it would be open and have more indoor space for the passengers just another thought, not the answer i know just a factor.

preparing to get blasted.

[woodpecker]

If you look closely, to the north of 27R/9L, the taxiways are still there that lead to the original apron served by the tented village. The original "tower" is still there (used to have a plaque next to it) just to the east of the central area tunnel entrances.

[ABX]

Departures delayed by fog

I have always thought that departures were delayed by fog because of the risk that you might need to return to the fog bound airport you just departed for some reason (EFATO for example).

I once witnessed a Chieftain depart ABX when the airport was closed by fog, the pilot was later summoned by the tower and CASA to explain ...

I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Cheers,

ABX

[Flightman]

"Next year, the new Terminal Five will open"

No. It will open in 2008. Muppets.