Weather, BAA, LHR, Xmas, BBC, Fog, BA, etc. Rants (merged)
ex-Tanker
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Ressurection
Well the good news a bit further up the thread is that the airline "which had you trooping up to Luton..." was Swissair!
Nice to see you back guys.
By the by, that comment goes to show how little Joe Public tries to understand ops decisions by airlines in the face of weather problems.
Someone should do something about it - but er not if it inconveniences me...
Nice to see you back guys.
By the by, that comment goes to show how little Joe Public tries to understand ops decisions by airlines in the face of weather problems.
Someone should do something about it - but er not if it inconveniences me...
I think the guy was not too far off the mark.
In a Corporate sense I believe that a "good kicking" is exactly what BAA requires.
The operation is a blot on the UK corprorate landscape and an embarrasment to the nation.
Merry Christmas to the hard working and long suffering staff of said dis-organization.
In a Corporate sense I believe that a "good kicking" is exactly what BAA requires.
The operation is a blot on the UK corprorate landscape and an embarrasment to the nation.
Merry Christmas to the hard working and long suffering staff of said dis-organization.
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There are three guilty parties in this farce .....
1) BA who made a business decision to put all it's eggs in one basket(case) airport that is at least one runway too little or two terminals too much and with no decent rail connections to the rest of the UK ..... London is NOT the UK!
2) Successive governments who have made NO decisions regarding expansion of UK airports over the past 50 years.
3) BAA who has turned their airports into shopping arcades connected to aircraft with dismal little passages and threadbare carpets.
1) BA who made a business decision to put all it's eggs in one basket(case) airport that is at least one runway too little or two terminals too much and with no decent rail connections to the rest of the UK ..... London is NOT the UK!
2) Successive governments who have made NO decisions regarding expansion of UK airports over the past 50 years.
3) BAA who has turned their airports into shopping arcades connected to aircraft with dismal little passages and threadbare carpets.
Last edited by offa; 23rd Dec 2006 at 10:17. Reason: language
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Stuck out here down the line with only BBC News 24 to listen to (dont speak French Spanish or Italian etc) Im pretty sure the news reporter said (note at the end) that BA had cancelled the same proportion of flights as other LHR operators like British Midland or what ever they're called today.
This for the BBC represents fair and balanced journalism.
I am pretty sick of the anti BA stance of the press when earlier this year with the liquid bomb plots which were targeted against US airlines and yet every report on TV had a BA plane as the back drop. Not once did i see an American airline ie the ones targeted used in any news flash. Unfortunately some SLF are not blessed with a full deck or read reasonably decent papers to understand the difference and will cancel or not book with BA.
Note how the British just said Dashed shame old bean or jolly bad show and the Aussie wanted to give some one a good kicking
Sunfish
Do i detect a dislike of pilots and cabin crew.
"Yes, the Airport needs a good kicking, as does BA, as do pilots who call passengers "Self Loading Freight".
The behaviour of major airlines under these circumstances really annoys me because they assume you will patiently stand around for hours waiting to climb into a dirty aluminium tube crewed by sullen morons who will eventually attempt to take you somewhere near where you want to go."
Its that very attitude that pilots call passengers SLF except freight doesnt get shirty or abuse crew (who want to get home just as much as you do) or arrive late at the gate and delay everyone else.
Merry Christmas one and all and i hope those of you stuck due to this act of nature and not BA or even the BAA get home safely
This for the BBC represents fair and balanced journalism.
I am pretty sick of the anti BA stance of the press when earlier this year with the liquid bomb plots which were targeted against US airlines and yet every report on TV had a BA plane as the back drop. Not once did i see an American airline ie the ones targeted used in any news flash. Unfortunately some SLF are not blessed with a full deck or read reasonably decent papers to understand the difference and will cancel or not book with BA.
Note how the British just said Dashed shame old bean or jolly bad show and the Aussie wanted to give some one a good kicking
Sunfish
Do i detect a dislike of pilots and cabin crew.
"Yes, the Airport needs a good kicking, as does BA, as do pilots who call passengers "Self Loading Freight".
The behaviour of major airlines under these circumstances really annoys me because they assume you will patiently stand around for hours waiting to climb into a dirty aluminium tube crewed by sullen morons who will eventually attempt to take you somewhere near where you want to go."
Its that very attitude that pilots call passengers SLF except freight doesnt get shirty or abuse crew (who want to get home just as much as you do) or arrive late at the gate and delay everyone else.
Merry Christmas one and all and i hope those of you stuck due to this act of nature and not BA or even the BAA get home safely
Last edited by flaps to 60; 23rd Dec 2006 at 10:59.
Join Date: Dec 2006
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I don't think the genral public understand why fog causes such a disruption so don't be to hard on them 
.
One lady presenter on sky news said "i don't underatand why planes can't fly in this weather with all their modern electronic devices" and my father said the same thing! Off course after i explained it to him he understood. partly the media's fault.....
. One lady presenter on sky news said "i don't underatand why planes can't fly in this weather with all their modern electronic devices" and my father said the same thing! Off course after i explained it to him he understood. partly the media's fault.....
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It is a sad fact of life that for most of us in the UK Heathrow and to a lesser degree Gatwick are the airports from which most long haul flights depart.
To get to the departure gate usually takes hours from the point of departure via maybe a couple of hours trying to check in.
The nightmare of the M25 is part of the process.
Is it not time for a more strategic approach to long haul flying to avoid the funnelling of passenger to a choke point. I wonder how many London departing passengers live outside the S.East.
I tend to use regional airports such as Norwich to connect to Schipol en-route to the Far East and Oz. Ten minute check in with no queues and baggage checked to destination.
To get to the departure gate usually takes hours from the point of departure via maybe a couple of hours trying to check in.
The nightmare of the M25 is part of the process.
Is it not time for a more strategic approach to long haul flying to avoid the funnelling of passenger to a choke point. I wonder how many London departing passengers live outside the S.East.
I tend to use regional airports such as Norwich to connect to Schipol en-route to the Far East and Oz. Ten minute check in with no queues and baggage checked to destination.
"The INTRODUCER"
In fairness, it's not just London that can't cope...
Join Date: Oct 2006
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re the fog
I am SLF myself and i feel that I have to stick up for BAA and you pro`s regarding all this media hype and passenger moaning.
The main point seem to be is that why can`t planes take of and land in fog. Well yes they can, but not in the same amounts as on a nice clear sunny day when you can see for miles, not just yards.
It seems to me that the flights were cancelled due to safety reason, for me thats the best possible reason.
I for one don`t just only read the media hype, I read what the people who matter say, you Gents and Ladies, and it does seem that BA cancelled some flight to take the pressure of the fog bound airports. Another good choice.
As for some of the passenger comments, don`t they read papers of watch news channels, they could then see that there were problems, not caused by any human factor. Not one person has blamed Mother Nature.
I just hope that if some of you pro`s are stuck somewhere, that you do get home and have a great Christmas.
The main point seem to be is that why can`t planes take of and land in fog. Well yes they can, but not in the same amounts as on a nice clear sunny day when you can see for miles, not just yards.
It seems to me that the flights were cancelled due to safety reason, for me thats the best possible reason.
I for one don`t just only read the media hype, I read what the people who matter say, you Gents and Ladies, and it does seem that BA cancelled some flight to take the pressure of the fog bound airports. Another good choice.
As for some of the passenger comments, don`t they read papers of watch news channels, they could then see that there were problems, not caused by any human factor. Not one person has blamed Mother Nature.
I just hope that if some of you pro`s are stuck somewhere, that you do get home and have a great Christmas.
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....problem is not with another runway its simply force of nature...
plus how will a 3rd runway increase the capacity in the air over the South East that is the real problem, too many flights and too little airspace.....!
A 3rd runway is only of use if traffic stays at the same level - it would just be filled up !
I don't suppose you could spare us a few more long haul flights up here at Manchester, we have as many domestic connections as AMS and that way us Northerners wouldn't clog up Heathrow, and we would'nt have to get in the way by being shuttled down to an already overcrowded South East airports system !
plus how will a 3rd runway increase the capacity in the air over the South East that is the real problem, too many flights and too little airspace.....!
A 3rd runway is only of use if traffic stays at the same level - it would just be filled up !
I don't suppose you could spare us a few more long haul flights up here at Manchester, we have as many domestic connections as AMS and that way us Northerners wouldn't clog up Heathrow, and we would'nt have to get in the way by being shuttled down to an already overcrowded South East airports system !
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FOG
Excuse my pathetic ignorance of technical aviation matters, but I always thought fog was a problem for landing and not taking off. This fog was caused by high pressure which keeps pollutants close to the ground by the pressure of descending air. The layer of fog should therefore be relatively shallow and an aircraft taking off soon out of it and in clear blue sky.
Is the problem then manoevring on the ground, finding the correct runway and such or is it the taking off as such once on the correct runway?
Would be grateful for elucidation on this point.
Live in Luxembourg and the airport at Findel is notoriously subject to fog, especially in November. Apocryphal story is that when the Nazis invaded in 1940 they asked the locals where the best place to build an airport was and the locals said "Findel, of course."
I have taken off from Findel in fog and the fog was dense but only about 15 metres deep. If you ascended a fire-brigade ladder you were out of the fog and into brilliant sunshine.
Is the problem then manoevring on the ground, finding the correct runway and such or is it the taking off as such once on the correct runway?
Would be grateful for elucidation on this point.
Live in Luxembourg and the airport at Findel is notoriously subject to fog, especially in November. Apocryphal story is that when the Nazis invaded in 1940 they asked the locals where the best place to build an airport was and the locals said "Findel, of course."
I have taken off from Findel in fog and the fog was dense but only about 15 metres deep. If you ascended a fire-brigade ladder you were out of the fog and into brilliant sunshine.
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The fog is not caused by pollutants, is caused by water particles in saturated air. The delays are due to problems landing, not taking off, and only mildly exacerbated by ground movement problems. We could fire all the aircraft off into the sky in fairly short order, the problem is it would take half the week to get them back to LHR.
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Bagso
Absolutely correct.
Not only that but some more international flights to the North (and better rail links) might attract more jobs and more tourism away from London, meaning we don't all have to move South for work, thereby reducing the pressure not just on the transport network in the SE, but the NHS, the greenbelt, house prices, the reservoirs, the sewers, the pie shops ...
You can't really blame the airlines, like any business, they're going to favour whatever will give them the best return for their shareholders over the shortest period. What's needed is a bit of leadership from central government to address the causes of the overcrowding in the SE, not just sticking plaster over the symptoms.
Absolutely correct.
Not only that but some more international flights to the North (and better rail links) might attract more jobs and more tourism away from London, meaning we don't all have to move South for work, thereby reducing the pressure not just on the transport network in the SE, but the NHS, the greenbelt, house prices, the reservoirs, the sewers, the pie shops
...You can't really blame the airlines, like any business, they're going to favour whatever will give them the best return for their shareholders over the shortest period. What's needed is a bit of leadership from central government to address the causes of the overcrowding in the SE, not just sticking plaster over the symptoms.
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Daedalus,
Our departure rate does go down in LVPs, but nowhere near the decrease in the landing rate. The problem comes, as Carnage Matey says, when we run out of a/c to depart, as they're still waiting to land!
Our departure rate does go down in LVPs, but nowhere near the decrease in the landing rate. The problem comes, as Carnage Matey says, when we run out of a/c to depart, as they're still waiting to land!
Paxing All Over The World
BYALPHAINDIA
Really? And which of those nice Lords presided over the Dirty Tricks against Virgin Atlantic??
The Dirty Tricks episode was in the late 80s and early 90s. As far as I recall without searching out my copy of the book, the face of Lord King appeared on the front cover of one of the paperback editions. AND for those that like to bash SRB, don't forget that he divided his compensation among his staff, calling it the "BA bonus".
No, I am not employed by any airline company I am a passenger. Just please don't have such short memories as the meedja.
Instead of being 'just another number' I co
I am sure Lord Marshall & Lord King would give BA a 'Proffesional' old fashioned kicking if they were still running the shop!
I am sure Lord Marshall & Lord King would give BA a 'Proffesional' old fashioned kicking if they were still running the shop!
The Dirty Tricks episode was in the late 80s and early 90s. As far as I recall without searching out my copy of the book, the face of Lord King appeared on the front cover of one of the paperback editions. AND for those that like to bash SRB, don't forget that he divided his compensation among his staff, calling it the "BA bonus".
No, I am not employed by any airline company I am a passenger. Just please don't have such short memories as the meedja.
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Heathrow is a microcosm of today’s UK. Everywhere you look, creaking infrastructure, systemic underinvestment, a total absence of integrated transport policy, private contractors squeezing every penny from the operation for management reward, the cheapest staff they can get, every facility operating on max to overheat, a constant state of crisis.
Add to that a government with an insane paranoia over security, and the whole place grinds to a halt at the first perturbation.
I’m not accusing Heathrow not trying, it’s just that every other airport in Europe does it so much better. I’d feel 20 years younger if I reported at MUC everyday!
No longer fit-for-purpose.
Add to that a government with an insane paranoia over security, and the whole place grinds to a halt at the first perturbation.
I’m not accusing Heathrow not trying, it’s just that every other airport in Europe does it so much better. I’d feel 20 years younger if I reported at MUC everyday!
No longer fit-for-purpose.
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...516881,00.html
As queues grow, planes take off with empty seats
Selected quote:
The Times discovered that dozens of BA flights took off with empty seats. The 7.45am to Munich left with 11 empty seats, despite a queue of more than a hundred passengers trying to leave for Germany.
Elyse Kerr, 42, a hotel manager, said that she had been waiting for a seat to Munich since Thursday morning. When she asked BA staff yesterday if she could get on the flight, she was told it had taken off with empty seats. “I was there waiting for that flight queuing non-stop and it went without us, with empty seats. We cannot believe it left without us,” she said.
PS: I don't think the persion who was interviewed meant "a good kicking" to mean "beaten up". His tone of voice suggests to me he meant "a kick up the backside".
As queues grow, planes take off with empty seats
Selected quote:
The Times discovered that dozens of BA flights took off with empty seats. The 7.45am to Munich left with 11 empty seats, despite a queue of more than a hundred passengers trying to leave for Germany.
Elyse Kerr, 42, a hotel manager, said that she had been waiting for a seat to Munich since Thursday morning. When she asked BA staff yesterday if she could get on the flight, she was told it had taken off with empty seats. “I was there waiting for that flight queuing non-stop and it went without us, with empty seats. We cannot believe it left without us,” she said.
PS: I don't think the persion who was interviewed meant "a good kicking" to mean "beaten up". His tone of voice suggests to me he meant "a kick up the backside".
Buzz off with BAF!!
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BYALPHAINDIAReally? And which of those nice Lords presided over the Dirty Tricks against Virgin Atlantic??
The Dirty Tricks episode was in the late 80s and early 90s. As far as I recall without searching out my copy of the book, the face of Lord King appeared on the front cover of one of the paperback editions. AND for those that like to bash SRB, don't forget that he divided his compensation among his staff, calling it the "BA bonus".
No, I am not employed by any airline company I am a passenger. Just please don't have such short memories as the meedja.
The Dirty Tricks episode was in the late 80s and early 90s. As far as I recall without searching out my copy of the book, the face of Lord King appeared on the front cover of one of the paperback editions. AND for those that like to bash SRB, don't forget that he divided his compensation among his staff, calling it the "BA bonus".
No, I am not employed by any airline company I am a passenger. Just please don't have such short memories as the meedja.
Lords King & Marshall turned round a union ridden, over staffed throwback
to the 1970's, into a world class airline. Many of the decisions they took
were not popular, and were sometimes ruthless, but they paid huge dividends
in securing the airline's efficiency, and therefore it's future.
However I am sure there are plenty who would like it to go back to being
Britain's answer to Aeroflot!
Wurzel's Brother
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As somebody who has spent the last 36 hours working at Heathrow repatriating passengers (sorry customers) by ground transportation who had to return from whence they came because they could not get to where they wanted to go I feel a bit qualified in commenting.
Most of them did not blame BA, most of them did not blame BAA and most of them did not blame God for the fog.
What they all said was a shambles was the organisation and lack of information - even though the situation was very fluid they weren't being told anything. Knowing that your Christamas is definitely screwed up - bad as it is - is not as bad than somebody either giving false hope or deliberatley giving out false information to 'keep them quiet'.
The attitude of the BAA/HAL MD on Radio 4 tonight made me want to puke - when asked if the fog had damaged Haethrows reputation internationally as so many international flights had been cancelled he casually said that it was, in effect, a minor problem and as it was only domestic flights and short haul European flights that had been affected. I assume he does not know that Europe is international!
The multitudes of customers who had to transit down to Gatwick to make onward flights will no doubt have a view of Heathrow competence which will differ from his. Every one that transits via a Europen airport in the future instead of LHR is a fare lost. They (BAA), and all LHR airlines, staff and 'suppliers', cannot afford to p*ss off one passenger!
Nav
Most of them did not blame BA, most of them did not blame BAA and most of them did not blame God for the fog.
What they all said was a shambles was the organisation and lack of information - even though the situation was very fluid they weren't being told anything. Knowing that your Christamas is definitely screwed up - bad as it is - is not as bad than somebody either giving false hope or deliberatley giving out false information to 'keep them quiet'.
The attitude of the BAA/HAL MD on Radio 4 tonight made me want to puke - when asked if the fog had damaged Haethrows reputation internationally as so many international flights had been cancelled he casually said that it was, in effect, a minor problem and as it was only domestic flights and short haul European flights that had been affected. I assume he does not know that Europe is international!
The multitudes of customers who had to transit down to Gatwick to make onward flights will no doubt have a view of Heathrow competence which will differ from his. Every one that transits via a Europen airport in the future instead of LHR is a fare lost. They (BAA), and all LHR airlines, staff and 'suppliers', cannot afford to p*ss off one passenger!
Nav
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daedelus,
I work in the Tower at Manchester, and I agree that in fog, we are "sometimes" in clear blue sky
However, imagine you driving a car at 240kph on a perfectly straight road.....then somebody suddenly puts a hood over your head, and says that you HAVE to slow down to 50kph inside 2.5km AND turn 30degrees left...then slow to 20kph to go to your stand.
Now, sit on the end of the runway. You have still got the hood over your head.....advance the throttles..you are moving...you get to [approx] 220kph and pull back on the stick...10 seconds later you are in clear blue sky... not a problem is it...but an engine has just failed... Put the hood back on....
Simplistc, YES but it is an "approach" [sorry] to the problem
watp,iktch
I work in the Tower at Manchester, and I agree that in fog, we are "sometimes" in clear blue sky
However, imagine you driving a car at 240kph on a perfectly straight road.....then somebody suddenly puts a hood over your head, and says that you HAVE to slow down to 50kph inside 2.5km AND turn 30degrees left...then slow to 20kph to go to your stand.
Now, sit on the end of the runway. You have still got the hood over your head.....advance the throttles..you are moving...you get to [approx] 220kph and pull back on the stick...10 seconds later you are in clear blue sky... not a problem is it...but an engine has just failed... Put the hood back on....
Simplistc, YES but it is an "approach" [sorry] to the problem
watp,iktch