Weather, BAA, LHR, Xmas, BBC, Fog, BA, etc. Rants (merged)
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Olster
6 of 9 LHR-CDG, 4 of 7 LHR-AMS and 5 of 8 LHR-FRA were canx today... and despite "all Domestics being Canx" this was a late am decision and so 3 of 9 LHR-MANs operated...
So whilst "all domestics cancelled" is the headline, in fact the whole SH program farily decimated.
By contrast, I don't think a single LH ex-LHR service cancelled today, and delays not outrageous...
I originally started this post because I do feel that it is a bizarre decision to cancel all domestic services(why not CDG/AMS/FRA)
So whilst "all domestics cancelled" is the headline, in fact the whole SH program farily decimated.
By contrast, I don't think a single LH ex-LHR service cancelled today, and delays not outrageous...
or alternatively come up with some reliable, robust contingency measures and give your customers something approaching what they've given you their money to do - we're not talking about a '100 year event' here, but something which happens 2/3 times a year.
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My last post too...
Forget my professional involvement.
As a regular BA pax, 16 flights this year, Exec club member etc, primarily through LHR. Would I rather turn up on a day like today and find my regular trip to Belfast cancelled or my trip to Rome or New York cancelled?
I'd take the domestic cancellation every time. Just about to travel back home for Christmas as I do every December, flight cancelled, tough but other options open to me. Car, train ferry etc. Were I going to New York what options have I got? Swim? Would I rather BA cancelled their entire domestic operation every time, absolutely. And I write as a traveller who previously lived in, and regularly returns to Ulster and is an Exec Club member!
BA/LHR is limited by its own popularity as it expands within its geographical and planning limits, therefore when (occasional) disruption occurs its always going to be bad. Upside? We have some of the cheapest fares to all 4 corners of the world with a choice of airlines and schedules other world passengers can only dream of.
PS I didn't say you smelled of S***, read the quote carefully, smell your own.......
Regards.
Forget my professional involvement.
As a regular BA pax, 16 flights this year, Exec club member etc, primarily through LHR. Would I rather turn up on a day like today and find my regular trip to Belfast cancelled or my trip to Rome or New York cancelled?
I'd take the domestic cancellation every time. Just about to travel back home for Christmas as I do every December, flight cancelled, tough but other options open to me. Car, train ferry etc. Were I going to New York what options have I got? Swim? Would I rather BA cancelled their entire domestic operation every time, absolutely. And I write as a traveller who previously lived in, and regularly returns to Ulster and is an Exec Club member!
BA/LHR is limited by its own popularity as it expands within its geographical and planning limits, therefore when (occasional) disruption occurs its always going to be bad. Upside? We have some of the cheapest fares to all 4 corners of the world with a choice of airlines and schedules other world passengers can only dream of.
PS I didn't say you smelled of S***, read the quote carefully, smell your own.......
Regards.
Last edited by DtyCln; 20th Dec 2006 at 19:05. Reason: spelling
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I feel Olster got an unfair slapping here. I agree that it is odd to cancel an entire domestic schedule.
The problem lies within the company, it would seem. It is a question of service, not union policy and minimum turn-arounds times etc.
My solution?
As there is rarely a problem having too short a turn-around when the slots are being handed out, the cabin and cockpit crew all stay with the same aircraft and fly the next available route arriving back at their home base as close as possible to their scheduled check out time. Force Majorie.
If their contract says they can't be rescheduled to fly something that arrives back later than their original check-out time, then assure them that that flight won't be cancelled anyway and is subject to 'x' delay such that they would get home quicker by accepting the other flight.
Can't see what is wrong with calling a standby crew in to fly a delayed flight rather than cancelling it. These situations allow that you fly seriously good load factors when you have condensed two or three flights into one.
The problem lies within the company, it would seem. It is a question of service, not union policy and minimum turn-arounds times etc.
My solution?
As there is rarely a problem having too short a turn-around when the slots are being handed out, the cabin and cockpit crew all stay with the same aircraft and fly the next available route arriving back at their home base as close as possible to their scheduled check out time. Force Majorie.
If their contract says they can't be rescheduled to fly something that arrives back later than their original check-out time, then assure them that that flight won't be cancelled anyway and is subject to 'x' delay such that they would get home quicker by accepting the other flight.
Can't see what is wrong with calling a standby crew in to fly a delayed flight rather than cancelling it. These situations allow that you fly seriously good load factors when you have condensed two or three flights into one.
Better red than ...
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With Christmas coming, and lots of fog about, why get a part of your fleet in the wrong place just before the busy time starts. That would ruin a few Christmases.
Loads of aircraft were out of position this morning due fog last night.
Last night could well have set a 'course record' for the number of missed approaches in one evening ...
Loads of aircraft were out of position this morning due fog last night.
Last night could well have set a 'course record' for the number of missed approaches in one evening ...
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Well well well. Its getting emotional on here tonight. Dtycln has it in a nutshell!! Totally correct. 
As for SWBKCB and NigelonDraft you really both need to get a sense of reality here. Don't take offence but when you get a peasouper like this for a few days just before xmas, its the worst possible scenario. As for saying LH managed to operate all their flights to LHR today then just have a peek at the BBC weather website and you just might find its quite clear over in Deutschland.
As for Olster you are unbelievable in that you have been at the pointy end for 30 years. I am totally lost for words!!!
As for SWBKCB and NigelonDraft you really both need to get a sense of reality here. Don't take offence but when you get a peasouper like this for a few days just before xmas, its the worst possible scenario. As for saying LH managed to operate all their flights to LHR today then just have a peek at the BBC weather website and you just might find its quite clear over in Deutschland.As for Olster you are unbelievable in that you have been at the pointy end for 30 years. I am totally lost for words!!!
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DtyCln - with comments such as yours I'm glad I don't come into your neck of London airspace.
Returning to the topic, it's called preserving the bottom line and the operation will take priority over and above the service, and at the bottom of the list, the passengers for whom (supposedly) it is designed to serve.
Returning to the topic, it's called preserving the bottom line and the operation will take priority over and above the service, and at the bottom of the list, the passengers for whom (supposedly) it is designed to serve.
Paxing All Over The World
SWBKCB
As much as I find irritating about BA mgmt, I work on the presumption that they don't like to canx flights. It makes their day longer and noiser and more stressfull. They will have been through this many times and know what can be done and what cannot. The facts of what has happened and what will happen the next time there is bad fog at ANY airport ANYWHERE in the world are well known.
mmeteesside
No. How do you communicate to ALL your passengers to go to a different ariport? You might get 50% but if even 10% don't get the message and cannot get to the alternative departure point - they will be as upset as if you had canx the flight.
More critically, each ferry movement of an empty machine out of EGLL and across to EGKK is two more slots removed from a system that is already (wait for it) slot limited! Not to mention that it costs hard cash in fees and fuel and diminishes the hours of the crews who may already have to spend much time waiting - to send them on a ferry flight and use more time and money does not work. That kind of action would be reserved for a long term event - let us say that T1 was out of action due to a very bad fire.
I'm looking at this from the customers point of view, and it looks like BA take the easy option and just shut down domestic operations rather than make the effort and try to offer some sort of service to those who pay the wages.
mmeteesside
How about moving whatever's left of the long haul fleet across to LGW, and starting operating B744's or B772's on the domestic routes from there? Move the pax across to LGW on coaches and soon you'll have them all out of your way.
Do-able or not?
Do-able or not?
More critically, each ferry movement of an empty machine out of EGLL and across to EGKK is two more slots removed from a system that is already (wait for it) slot limited! Not to mention that it costs hard cash in fees and fuel and diminishes the hours of the crews who may already have to spend much time waiting - to send them on a ferry flight and use more time and money does not work. That kind of action would be reserved for a long term event - let us say that T1 was out of action due to a very bad fire.
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MLS at LHR?
To be fair, BA have been pushing for MLS at LHR for years - they offered themselves up for the trial in the 80's (G-BIKA, a 757, wasn't it, from memory?) and have/had kitted out parts of the fleet. The trouble is, unless everyone else is forced to upgrade, we're still stuck with the 1960's CAT III localizer on VHF with its inherent beam-bending propensities.
25 years ago, there was a table published with the dates by when the 'old' localizer/glideslope system was going to be phased out in favour of MLS. I think we've gone WAY past that date, without a sniff of activity except for installations at LHR, but hardly anyone with the airborne kit. Remember, to make it work for the wx we had today (and right up to Christmas, by the look of it) everyone's got to be on the new system, if one aircraft is still hooked into the old system, you'll still need to 6 mile gaps.
It's only a few years ago that whenever LVPs set in, we all put our feet up and nothing stirred on the aerodrome for days on end. People EXPECTED flights to be cancelled - waiting around for days. The Terminals even had contingencies like 'Fog chairs' - special stores of extra seating. I doubt in today's crowded lounges if there'd be room even to put them out...
The Odd One
25 years ago, there was a table published with the dates by when the 'old' localizer/glideslope system was going to be phased out in favour of MLS. I think we've gone WAY past that date, without a sniff of activity except for installations at LHR, but hardly anyone with the airborne kit. Remember, to make it work for the wx we had today (and right up to Christmas, by the look of it) everyone's got to be on the new system, if one aircraft is still hooked into the old system, you'll still need to 6 mile gaps.
It's only a few years ago that whenever LVPs set in, we all put our feet up and nothing stirred on the aerodrome for days on end. People EXPECTED flights to be cancelled - waiting around for days. The Terminals even had contingencies like 'Fog chairs' - special stores of extra seating. I doubt in today's crowded lounges if there'd be room even to put them out...
The Odd One
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Pervious post was my last but.............
Flight Disruption due to Fog 21 December 2006
Question
British Airways is working closely with BAA at London Heathrow and National Air Traffic Services due to the restricted number of flights which will be able to operate at the airport on Thursday December 21 as a result of the severe fog.
As a consequence of the expected severe fog British Airways is cancelling all domestic services to and from London Heathrow on Thursday December 21.British Airways is doing all it can to assist customers and would urge customers due to travel on one of the cancelled flights to or from London Heathrow on Thursday December 21 not to travel to the airport.
Customers due to travel are advised to check the status of their flight before they leave for the airport.
To access our real time flight arrival and departure information please click here.
Just posted on BA.com
Well done BA, I personally support you decisions fully!
Standby for incoming.....to the shelters men!
Flight Disruption due to Fog 21 December 2006
Question
British Airways is working closely with BAA at London Heathrow and National Air Traffic Services due to the restricted number of flights which will be able to operate at the airport on Thursday December 21 as a result of the severe fog.
As a consequence of the expected severe fog British Airways is cancelling all domestic services to and from London Heathrow on Thursday December 21.British Airways is doing all it can to assist customers and would urge customers due to travel on one of the cancelled flights to or from London Heathrow on Thursday December 21 not to travel to the airport.
Customers due to travel are advised to check the status of their flight before they leave for the airport.
To access our real time flight arrival and departure information please click here.
Just posted on BA.com
Well done BA, I personally support you decisions fully!
Standby for incoming.....to the shelters men!
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haughtney!,
Bit late to reply to your previous, but easy will also put you on the next available flight, and will also hotac you... we're not all ryanair you know! Probably why BA short-haul is suffering so much at LGW et al.
All the best for the festive season.
easy
Bit late to reply to your previous, but easy will also put you on the next available flight, and will also hotac you... we're not all ryanair you know! Probably why BA short-haul is suffering so much at LGW et al.
All the best for the festive season.
easy
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From a MAN point of view, this in some respects is a good thing. Those in the habit of totting up the exec club points and in the routine of always using the laughingly named 'British' Airways via LHR for longhaul may use the excellent and often direct LH alternatives already in place at MAN instead, thus aiding further LH development there. This in place of using BA who are effectively just parasites and see the rest of the UK as a feeding ground for their LHR LH services, whilst making redundant/shafting it's so-called 'regional' workforce at the same time, i.e. MAN hangar, BACon etc.
The train is faster all in all (than flying) from central Manchester to central London also, something many people are beginning to realise.
Perhaps if BA just left (MAN) completely, it would finally free up some useful space.
The train is faster all in all (than flying) from central Manchester to central London also, something many people are beginning to realise.
Perhaps if BA just left (MAN) completely, it would finally free up some useful space.
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Excellent, nice quiet day at work tomorrow then. Apart from London City, Biggin Hill, Southampton and Farnborough types holding in all the usual and quite a few unusual places!!
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This ain't peasoup!
We're talking 1950's viz down to 3 or 4 yards, choking green filth, 12,000 people dying from breathing difficulties in a single event, Policemen on point duty wearing masks. I well remember my mother walking along the white painted line in the middle of the road, holding a hankerchief in front of the windscreen so that my father could steer the car. This was in Central London, not out in he countryside! Now, THAT was a pea-souper, named after the colour of the stuff.
And who cleaned it all up? Well, a certain Labour MP called Robert Maxwell introduced the Clean Air Act. Yup, that was him, Cap'n Bob as he became, of Daily Mirror fame (or is that infamy, as in 'infamy, infamy, they've all got it in fa me!')
TOO
We're talking 1950's viz down to 3 or 4 yards, choking green filth, 12,000 people dying from breathing difficulties in a single event, Policemen on point duty wearing masks. I well remember my mother walking along the white painted line in the middle of the road, holding a hankerchief in front of the windscreen so that my father could steer the car. This was in Central London, not out in he countryside! Now, THAT was a pea-souper, named after the colour of the stuff.
And who cleaned it all up? Well, a certain Labour MP called Robert Maxwell introduced the Clean Air Act. Yup, that was him, Cap'n Bob as he became, of Daily Mirror fame (or is that infamy, as in 'infamy, infamy, they've all got it in fa me!')
TOO
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Only people to blame for this sort of thing is the government.All our transport resources roads/rail/airports are working at 100% capacity.No reserve for bad weather etc.Lack of investment and a crippling planning enviroment.What hope for the future of this once great country.
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Flying Cook- Stick to cooking
DtyCln - What are you on about?
Olster - Quite right old chap!
BA Management - As ever, sod the pax, don't care about repeat bookings.
Aviators in general - Read the TAF and carry the gas!!
DtyCln - What are you on about?
Olster - Quite right old chap!
BA Management - As ever, sod the pax, don't care about repeat bookings.
Aviators in general - Read the TAF and carry the gas!!
What mmmteeside talks about is I'd suspect a lot more difficult to achieve than it sounds (esp. as essentially the large a/c on long haul are pretty much ops normal), but it did remind me of the Christmas "push" BA used to do on the domestics out of LHR in the run-up to Christmas, going back a few years, with all those Tristars on the BFS shuttle, for example.
Don't forget that only a few months ago when the industry was plunged into chaos by the Ministry of Insecurity (liquids ban), BA tried it's best to struggle on and as a result, took loads of flack for something that was very much out of its control.
Easy and Ryan took the other option and probably picked up less adverse publicity even though they cancelled virtually the whole days flying in order to avoid the knock on disruption. Maybe BA have learnt from this. If ever there was a case for a third runway at LHR, this is certainly it and I am sure WW will be making the most of it - good luck to him.
In the middle of all this, lets remember the 1000 or so BA Groundstaff in the regions many of whom who will be working well into the early hours trying to help thir customers, despite facing the axe in the new year when Santa Walsh dumps Connect and finally pulls out of the regions (apart form a few shutles). They could so easilly say "sod it, waterworld doesn't care about us or anything North of the Bath Road, so why should we bother", I doubt that they will though, they are on the whole all a great bunch of professionals with a great sense of duty and once again they will be going that extra mile or more.
Same goes for the BAconnect staff who will also be pulling out all the stops tonight to try and operate the non-LHR domestic and SH operation as close to normal as possible.
Easy and Ryan took the other option and probably picked up less adverse publicity even though they cancelled virtually the whole days flying in order to avoid the knock on disruption. Maybe BA have learnt from this. If ever there was a case for a third runway at LHR, this is certainly it and I am sure WW will be making the most of it - good luck to him.
In the middle of all this, lets remember the 1000 or so BA Groundstaff in the regions many of whom who will be working well into the early hours trying to help thir customers, despite facing the axe in the new year when Santa Walsh dumps Connect and finally pulls out of the regions (apart form a few shutles). They could so easilly say "sod it, waterworld doesn't care about us or anything North of the Bath Road, so why should we bother", I doubt that they will though, they are on the whole all a great bunch of professionals with a great sense of duty and once again they will be going that extra mile or more.
Same goes for the BAconnect staff who will also be pulling out all the stops tonight to try and operate the non-LHR domestic and SH operation as close to normal as possible.