GATWICK
So who said that the Channel Tunnel and high speed rail would eliminate the need for short haul?
Clearly this new route illustrates well that this is not the case for HS1 and would not be for HS2.
Clearly this new route illustrates well that this is not the case for HS1 and would not be for HS2.
Eurostar is a good option but also have friends who drive simply because the cost for 4 for a weekend more than balances out the costs involved..............they say door to door in getting to St Pancras and Paris is within 90 minutes.
Does anyone know if MAN route is in the pipeline for any airline...know of a few business people who hate having to go to LHR to fly up there(and do not want to use the train!!)
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These business people aren't very business like I would say. Did a brenchmarking this summer between Manchester and London, and the train travel took around 1 hour 40 minutes less than with the plane. The trip north was from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly with Virgin Trains in First - travel time 2 hours 8 minutes. The trip south again was from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport with Trans Pen in First, MAN-LHR with Little Red (to keep it in the family) and the Heatrow Express in First from Heathrow to Paddington. At Paddington the watch stopped at 3 hours 47 minutes. The trip was done with no checked in luggage - only an iPad to stay online and a small Canon to document the trip. If the trip had started at Gatwick the difference between the options would had been even larger. I haven't said a thing about the stress level difference (the safety check at MAN T3 was awful) and price tag difference, but I can tell you the train won it hands down on all accounts. Oh, I didn't mention Virgin Trains served a wonderful full English breaky free of charge.
Last edited by LN-KGL; 24th Oct 2013 at 10:57.
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The Heathrow route exists to feed BA long haul, a large proportion are connecting, and for this it's a right and proper way to go, connecting MAN with BA's worldwide network just as EK,QR,EY,KL,LH, AF all do in a similar vein. P2P fares are painfully high on many flights, in comparson with LGW-MAN which was a large majority of P2P where fares were pretty dirt cheap, even for BA.
Now there is a market for business travel between the Gatwick region and Manchester on P2P and less so on connections, but the high costs of doing business at LGW preclude a "right" sized aircraft from operating. The B737-400 was, in my experience way too big. The market is smaller than it used to be as BA no longer hub but it does clearly exist as transiting trains via London can be a major faff. The problem is tapping it at a profitable level.
Now there is a market for business travel between the Gatwick region and Manchester on P2P and less so on connections, but the high costs of doing business at LGW preclude a "right" sized aircraft from operating. The B737-400 was, in my experience way too big. The market is smaller than it used to be as BA no longer hub but it does clearly exist as transiting trains via London can be a major faff. The problem is tapping it at a profitable level.
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BA isn't alone on LHR-MAN or for that sake LHR-EDI og LHR-ABZ anymore - Virgin Atlantic Little Red also fly these three routes. Both BA and VS use these domestic routes primarily to feed their international flights out of LHR, but Charley B clearly asked about a few local business people that want to fly from LGW to MAN. The six first months of S12 the average daily passenger number between LGW and MAN was 512 and that equaled to 3.5 filled BA B734. Of the airlines flying today at LGW, here is a list of how many filled aircraft that equals to
B738 186 seats - 2.75 - 2 daily cabin factor 68.8%
A320 183 seats - 2.80 - 2 daily cabin factor 68.9%
A319 156 seats - 3.28 - 2 daily cabin factor 82.1%
E195 118 seats - 4.34 - 3 daily cabin factor 72.3%
E175 88 seats - 5.82 - 3 daily cabin factor 97.0%
Clearly the two last isn't an option since flybe will abandon LGW. Had easyJet seen a business case in flying between MAN and LGW they would started it already in April. The same can be said about the first option on the list above, but since they have the largest capacity aircraft of them all; it would be even more unlikely than easyJet jumping in. Oh, didn't I give the name of the third airline - it was of course Norwegian.
A big share of the 512 daily passengers would last year transfer at LGW. With BA out of the picture, the true O&D traffic between the two airports would have been much lower, and Charley B may know a very large share of these few. These days UK domestic flights with jets between airports that are less than 210 miles apart is unsustainable. With that I mean, it will take less time with existing ground transport compared with flying the same distance. The sole reason for why BA is flying MAN-LHR and LBA-LHR and VS is flying MAN-LHR is to create enough feed for their international flights out of LHR.
B738 186 seats - 2.75 - 2 daily cabin factor 68.8%
A320 183 seats - 2.80 - 2 daily cabin factor 68.9%
A319 156 seats - 3.28 - 2 daily cabin factor 82.1%
E195 118 seats - 4.34 - 3 daily cabin factor 72.3%
E175 88 seats - 5.82 - 3 daily cabin factor 97.0%
Clearly the two last isn't an option since flybe will abandon LGW. Had easyJet seen a business case in flying between MAN and LGW they would started it already in April. The same can be said about the first option on the list above, but since they have the largest capacity aircraft of them all; it would be even more unlikely than easyJet jumping in. Oh, didn't I give the name of the third airline - it was of course Norwegian.
A big share of the 512 daily passengers would last year transfer at LGW. With BA out of the picture, the true O&D traffic between the two airports would have been much lower, and Charley B may know a very large share of these few. These days UK domestic flights with jets between airports that are less than 210 miles apart is unsustainable. With that I mean, it will take less time with existing ground transport compared with flying the same distance. The sole reason for why BA is flying MAN-LHR and LBA-LHR and VS is flying MAN-LHR is to create enough feed for their international flights out of LHR.
Last edited by LN-KGL; 24th Oct 2013 at 12:29.
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A big share of the 512 daily passengers would last year transfer at LGW.
The sole reason for why BA is flying MAN-LHR and LBA-LHR
it was of course Norwegian.
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 24th Oct 2013 at 13:26.
These days UK domestic flights with jets between airports that are less than 210 miles apart is unsustainable. With that I mean, it will take less time with existing ground transport compared with flying the same distance.
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Your employer?
Tell that to anyone who lives in Belfast and they will disagree.
Last edited by LN-KGL; 24th Oct 2013 at 13:35.
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These business people aren't very business like I would say. Did a brenchmarking this summer between Manchester and London, and the train travel took around 1 hour 40 minutes less than with the plane. The trip north was from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly with Virgin Trains in First - travel time 2 hours 8 minutes. The trip south again was from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport with Trans Pen in First, MAN-LHR with Little Red (to keep it in the family) and the Heatrow Express in First from Heathrow to Paddington. At Paddington the watch stopped at 3 hours 47 minutes. The trip was done with no checked in luggage - only an iPad to stay online and a small Canon to document the trip. If the trip had started at Gatwick the difference between the options would had been even larger. I haven't said a thing about the stress level difference (the safety check at MAN T3 was awful) and price tag difference, but I can tell you the train won it hands down on all accounts. Oh, I didn't mention Virgin Trains served a wonderful full English breaky free of charge.
2 hours 8 minutes is a reasonable time for Manchester-London city centre-city centre journey (makes one wonder if £50 billion to cut less than an hour off the journey time is a good use of public money). For this kind of journey clearly the train is the best option.
But don't forget the onward travel times to/from London-Euston. A final destination does not have to be very far from the centre of London to add a couple of hours to the journey.
For those heading west of London, a Ringway-Heathrow flight can often be the most convenient option. It's good to have the choice.
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That will be hangar 6 which was the old Laker Airways engineering facility.
When Laker ceased trading around 1983??, BCAL took over the premises. BCAL was then absorbed by BA who have used the hangar since then.
It is one of only 2 hangars that remain at Gatwick. All the others have been demolished.
I seem to recall very a long time ago hangar 4 had caught fire. I don't remember the cause of the fire or when it happened.
When Laker ceased trading around 1983??, BCAL took over the premises. BCAL was then absorbed by BA who have used the hangar since then.
It is one of only 2 hangars that remain at Gatwick. All the others have been demolished.
I seem to recall very a long time ago hangar 4 had caught fire. I don't remember the cause of the fire or when it happened.
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2 hours 8 minutes is a reasonable time for Manchester-London city centre-city centre journey (makes one wonder if £50 billion to cut less than an hour off the journey time is a good use of public money). For this kind of journey clearly the train is the best option.
Last edited by IB4138; 30th Oct 2013 at 16:43.
These business people aren't very business like I would say. Did a benchmarking this summer between Manchester and London, and the train travel took around 1 hour 40 minutes less than with the plane. The trip north was from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly with Virgin Trains in First - travel time 2 hours 8 minutes. The trip south again was from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport ..... MAN-LHR ..... Heathrow Express in First from Heathrow to Paddington. At Paddington the watch stopped at 3 hours 47 minutes.
There are both businesses and homes in the Thames Valley for many travellers on the MAN-LHR flights, for whom getting to/from Euston is a real inconvenience, and can more than double the trip time. Just to make those in the outer periphery of London find the train useless, in recent years they have given up stopping the trains at Watford Junction, which used to have quite a number of day-return business travellers.
Meanwhile if you live around Manchester you can always drive in and park in one of those ill-lit car parks near Manchester Piccadilly, but the chances of your car being fully in one piece when you return are somewhat less than at Ringway.
Gatwick-Oran airport 5th January 2014 easyjet