HEATHROW
Oh well - here we go again...
BA used to have a large operation at Manchester - for a while they were pretty much the sole occupant of one the terminals. This included long haul flying to NYC.
Slowly, this operation was cut and offloaded because it lost money. One of the very last routes (the last route ?) was Manchester-NYC. Again, it just wasn't making money.
Have a search through some of the previous threads on here for all the times when Mancunians have bemoaned London Airways not giving Manchester a fair chance.
BA used to have a large operation at Manchester - for a while they were pretty much the sole occupant of one the terminals. This included long haul flying to NYC.
Slowly, this operation was cut and offloaded because it lost money. One of the very last routes (the last route ?) was Manchester-NYC. Again, it just wasn't making money.
Have a search through some of the previous threads on here for all the times when Mancunians have bemoaned London Airways not giving Manchester a fair chance.
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I realise that there used to be a service, but I thought that was axed quite a number of years ago rather than in the last few, when the world was a very different place.
Not really sure what my argument is here to be honest, I'm sure BA have considered it and written it off! Was just a thought, to be considered against the rising value of slots at LHR
Not really sure what my argument is here to be honest, I'm sure BA have considered it and written it off! Was just a thought, to be considered against the rising value of slots at LHR
Last edited by Libertine Winno; 9th Nov 2012 at 13:54.
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LHR & LGW rail link ?
@ Skipness
A semi-fast rail link from LHR to Guildford (via Staines & Woking) was one of the routes on BAA's Airtrack proposal for pax & staff modal shift from car to train. There is already a train from Reading to LGW via Guildford, however as part of their expansion plans LGW are also calling for improved train services for pax and staff.
The Climate Change Committee reported 60% growth in aviation can be permitted within the Climate Change Act target of an 80% reduction in greenhouse gasses by 2050; though this is subject to government approval.
All I'm suggesting is that a semi-fast train service via Guildford would combine both LHR & LGW requirements. Simple really !
LHR's rail connection to LGW: Why? What are you basing this on?
The Climate Change Committee reported 60% growth in aviation can be permitted within the Climate Change Act target of an 80% reduction in greenhouse gasses by 2050; though this is subject to government approval.
All I'm suggesting is that a semi-fast train service via Guildford would combine both LHR & LGW requirements. Simple really !
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All I'm suggesting is that a semi-fast train service via Guildford would combine both LHR & LGW requirements. Simple really !
However, it does seem a little unnecessary that BA and VS operate flights from MAN to LHR just to feed long haul (and probably only one or two specific long haul routes I would be willing to bet) when they could operate a couple of 777's or even 787's out of MAN and free up some slots.
They operate feed to LHR as they HAVE to feed long haul.
Means they won't have to operate a large presence at LGW, and could instead have a smaller one at MAN?
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 9th Nov 2012 at 14:19.
as part of their expansion plans LGW are also calling for improved train services for pax and staff
But are you seriously suggesting that an appreciable part of the demand will be pax arriving at LHR and continuing their journey from Gatwick ?
I'm losing track here - have we stopped at Heathwickholt, or have we already progressed to Heathwickholtsted ?
In answer to WHBM's question
Can anyone suggest ANY metropolitan area which has made a success of connections between different airports ?
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Sorry what market does a LHR/LGW rail connection serve?
This would also cater for any LHR - LGW transfer passengers; at the moment both airports advise HEx to/from Paddington, tube to/from Victoria and GEx to/from LGW.
Such a solution would help effect modal shift from car to electric train, speed up transfer times and be far cheaper than Heathwick.
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This would also cater for any LHR - LGW transfer passengers
Skipness - there are some routes for which either Gatwick is the main European hub point, or another major European hub does not have a flight at a similiar time, or the routing via another hub costs significantly more.
An example might be someone flying from Newquay via London to somewhere else - yes they can go take a train to Exeter and then go via somewhere else, but it's probably simpler to do a LGW-LHR transfer.
An example might be someone flying from Newquay via London to somewhere else - yes they can go take a train to Exeter and then go via somewhere else, but it's probably simpler to do a LGW-LHR transfer.
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 9th Nov 2012 at 15:11.
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London airport connections
Can anyone suggest ANY metropolitan area which has made a success of connections between different airports ?
If Boris gets his way on Crossrail 2 then the Crossrail 1 re-build of Tottenham Court road is already making passive provision for it, as a Crossrail 1/2 interchange. It's also worth remembering that Crossrail 1 will run through Liverpool Street station, home of the Stansted Express.
Of course that doesn't extend to LGW actually contributing to the cost (à la BAA/Airtrack).
The Thameslink project was no way, built to connect LTN and LGW. The travel time between the two airports is still 1hr 30mins and choc-a-bloc during the peak hours.
Its to serve the many commuters and p2p travellers at both airports.
Its to serve the many commuters and p2p travellers at both airports.
How many LGW-LHR transfer passengers are there? <1%?
I'm astounded to encounter pax from time to time at LCY who are doing an LCY-LHR transfer, especially given that they have come in to LCY from places like Amsterdam (actual recent example) which have substantial operations to Heathrow. I can't imagine what combination of travel organiser incompetence and/or fare benefit that leads to this.
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travel time between the two airports is still 1hr 30mins and choc-a-bloc during the peak hours
The Davies Commission will look at the alternatives including promoting a London multi-hub system along with regional airport development. I'm encouraged by the appointment of Sir John Armitt, former chairman of the Olympic Delivery Authority and former chief executive of Network Rail.
HS2 won't affect 90% of people that travel into London.
Although extra rail capacity is positive and I agree a modal shift between domestic aviation to rail is the way forward in the very very long term, should capital investment be made available, it wouldn't affect the vast majority of passengers travelling into the city for work (yet). It must be connected to LHR.
Although extra rail capacity is positive and I agree a modal shift between domestic aviation to rail is the way forward in the very very long term, should capital investment be made available, it wouldn't affect the vast majority of passengers travelling into the city for work (yet). It must be connected to LHR.
The Davies Commission will look at the alternatives including promoting a London multi-hub system along with regional airport development. I'm encouraged by the appointment of Sir John Armitt, former chairman of the Olympic Delivery Authority and former chief executive of Network Rail.
I don't know what sort of background an appointee would need to have in order to be able to do that, possibly a science fiction writer ?
Paxing All Over The World
Windsorian
So true. The only real expansion has been motorways and it's been true for the 35 years of my adult life and I do not expect to see it change in any significant way. We adopted the American idea of personal car above public transport and now we are stuck sitting in the traffic jam.
No need to get excited about imminent change, the very fact that yet another commission is cranking up tells you all you need to know about British politicians.
We are not just facing road gridlock but also rail gridlock due to the high volumes and lack of capacity. <snip> The truth is we need to encourage modal shift and substantial extra capacity throughout our transport system.
No need to get excited about imminent change, the very fact that yet another commission is cranking up tells you all you need to know about British politicians.
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Quote: “Arriving at Euston reliably from outside London requires much more padding to your time allowance than going to Heathrow does.
One of the things noticed when Eurostar moved over from Waterloo to St Pancras was how additionally inconvenient it now was for those from SW London, Surrey, etc, to get to it, compared to hopping across platforms at Waterloo. BA experienced a significant increase in Paris traffic from Heathrow after this happened.”
Indeed, one can be as little as 12 mi. outside London and still need a time allowance of 2 hours to Euston, Kings Cross/St Pancras, etc., not to mention carting luggage on buses, trains, tubes, etc.. Much easier, convenient, and often cheaper to fly from LHR.
Quote: “A brief look at Google Earth shows that it's not just the unimagineable cost of compensating these communities, which are much bigger than Sipson and Harmondsworth, but also draining the reservoirs which are elevated compared to the surrounding areas. The reservoir capacity would have to be replaced - where? Just not practical.
Same thing applies to the open land west of the M25 - not to mention turning Windsor into the runway overrrun area!”
Had said that if the money is available for compensating the 20,000 residents of both Bedfont and Stanwell, it’s better spent on a second rwy north of LHR and extending across the M25. This area is north of the reservoirs. Additional LHR rwys do not necessarily need to be 2.5 mi. long.
This idea is different from the plan to have four new 1.8 mi. long rwys west of the present airport, demolishing reservoirs, and abandoning both the existing 2.5 mi. long rwys.
Quote: “Its also suggested that the Heathrow Express will be retired from Platforms 6 & 7 at Paddington when its present contract expires which would free up 2 fast line platforms for extra long distance trains going West past Reading; it's proposed Crossrail will provide the new LHR service on the slow lines.”
What a waste of an opportunity to open up a huge rail catchment area for LHR by providing a one-stop change over the massive Reading rail hub.
It’s a classic lack of joined-up thinking: another spur off the mainline, allowing some long distance trains to stop at LHR 1-2-3 and LHR-5 is needed (not a “Heathrow hub“ (sic) at Iver!), and Crossrail should obviously extend to Reading.
Quote: “However there is a good case for improving LHR's rail connection to LGW via Staines; the original Airtrack plan included a T5 - Guildford route which opened up an improved link to LGW. Unfortunately in 2011 BAA threw this baby out with the bath water and withdrew the proposal; though hopefully when Crossrail takes over the present HEx route, they will extend it to Staines as an incremental step towards a semi-fast LHR - LGW rail link.”
No there isn‘t, National Express buses link the two airports several times/hour. Even with bad traffic it would still be quicker than LHR-LGW via Guildford by train on local lines (as this would always be a slow and arduous journey!).
Staines to LGW by train involves a change at Clapham Junction. The
Airtrack proposal was never intended to go to LGW and was scuppered because there are too many level crossings west of Staines. Upping the frequencies without addressing this would lead to unacceptable traffic congestion in places like Egham. Two trains/hour each to Reading and Guildford were proposed in addition to the existing services.
Quote: “Long haul loco is tricky as legacy loco is already there in that space, cross subsidised by the front cabins.”
A very good way of putting it!
Quote: “I'm sure they are, and very commendable too. Of course that doesn't extend to actually contributing to the cost (à la BAA/Airtrack).
But are you seriously suggesting that an appreciable part of the demand will be pax arriving at LHR and continuing their journey from Gatwick ?
I'm losing track here - have we stopped at Heathwickholt, or have we already progressed to Heathwickholtsted ?”
Exactly, it is the stuff of fantasy. We’re back in the Thames estuary. Am losing the will to live.
“Heathwickholtsted-borisle” anyone?
Quote: “There I was thinking the £6 Billion ThamesLink project will connect Luton & LGW, whilst the £15 Billion Crossrail project will connect LCY and LHR !! Perhaps you should visit Farringdon which is being built as an underground interchange station between these two lines.
If Boris gets his way on Crossrail 2 then the Crossrail 1 re-build of Tottenham Court road is already making passive provision for it, as a Crossrail 1/2 interchange. It's also worth remembering that Crossrail 1 will run through Liverpool Street station, home of the Stansted Express.”
If Crossrail had been designed properly, it would be Reading-Southend (on existing track west of Maidenhead and east of Shenfield), and SEN would also be on the network.
One of the things noticed when Eurostar moved over from Waterloo to St Pancras was how additionally inconvenient it now was for those from SW London, Surrey, etc, to get to it, compared to hopping across platforms at Waterloo. BA experienced a significant increase in Paris traffic from Heathrow after this happened.”
Indeed, one can be as little as 12 mi. outside London and still need a time allowance of 2 hours to Euston, Kings Cross/St Pancras, etc., not to mention carting luggage on buses, trains, tubes, etc.. Much easier, convenient, and often cheaper to fly from LHR.
Quote: “A brief look at Google Earth shows that it's not just the unimagineable cost of compensating these communities, which are much bigger than Sipson and Harmondsworth, but also draining the reservoirs which are elevated compared to the surrounding areas. The reservoir capacity would have to be replaced - where? Just not practical.
Same thing applies to the open land west of the M25 - not to mention turning Windsor into the runway overrrun area!”
Had said that if the money is available for compensating the 20,000 residents of both Bedfont and Stanwell, it’s better spent on a second rwy north of LHR and extending across the M25. This area is north of the reservoirs. Additional LHR rwys do not necessarily need to be 2.5 mi. long.
This idea is different from the plan to have four new 1.8 mi. long rwys west of the present airport, demolishing reservoirs, and abandoning both the existing 2.5 mi. long rwys.
Quote: “Its also suggested that the Heathrow Express will be retired from Platforms 6 & 7 at Paddington when its present contract expires which would free up 2 fast line platforms for extra long distance trains going West past Reading; it's proposed Crossrail will provide the new LHR service on the slow lines.”
What a waste of an opportunity to open up a huge rail catchment area for LHR by providing a one-stop change over the massive Reading rail hub.
It’s a classic lack of joined-up thinking: another spur off the mainline, allowing some long distance trains to stop at LHR 1-2-3 and LHR-5 is needed (not a “Heathrow hub“ (sic) at Iver!), and Crossrail should obviously extend to Reading.
Quote: “However there is a good case for improving LHR's rail connection to LGW via Staines; the original Airtrack plan included a T5 - Guildford route which opened up an improved link to LGW. Unfortunately in 2011 BAA threw this baby out with the bath water and withdrew the proposal; though hopefully when Crossrail takes over the present HEx route, they will extend it to Staines as an incremental step towards a semi-fast LHR - LGW rail link.”
No there isn‘t, National Express buses link the two airports several times/hour. Even with bad traffic it would still be quicker than LHR-LGW via Guildford by train on local lines (as this would always be a slow and arduous journey!).
Staines to LGW by train involves a change at Clapham Junction. The
Airtrack proposal was never intended to go to LGW and was scuppered because there are too many level crossings west of Staines. Upping the frequencies without addressing this would lead to unacceptable traffic congestion in places like Egham. Two trains/hour each to Reading and Guildford were proposed in addition to the existing services.
Quote: “Long haul loco is tricky as legacy loco is already there in that space, cross subsidised by the front cabins.”
A very good way of putting it!
Quote: “I'm sure they are, and very commendable too. Of course that doesn't extend to actually contributing to the cost (à la BAA/Airtrack).
But are you seriously suggesting that an appreciable part of the demand will be pax arriving at LHR and continuing their journey from Gatwick ?
I'm losing track here - have we stopped at Heathwickholt, or have we already progressed to Heathwickholtsted ?”
Exactly, it is the stuff of fantasy. We’re back in the Thames estuary. Am losing the will to live.
“Heathwickholtsted-borisle” anyone?
Quote: “There I was thinking the £6 Billion ThamesLink project will connect Luton & LGW, whilst the £15 Billion Crossrail project will connect LCY and LHR !! Perhaps you should visit Farringdon which is being built as an underground interchange station between these two lines.
If Boris gets his way on Crossrail 2 then the Crossrail 1 re-build of Tottenham Court road is already making passive provision for it, as a Crossrail 1/2 interchange. It's also worth remembering that Crossrail 1 will run through Liverpool Street station, home of the Stansted Express.”
If Crossrail had been designed properly, it would be Reading-Southend (on existing track west of Maidenhead and east of Shenfield), and SEN would also be on the network.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 10th Nov 2012 at 13:24.
I've long said that the most effective way to link Heathrow and Gatwick by train is to combine the Heathrow Connect from Heathrow into London, which runs all the way into Paddington but duplicates the Heathrow Express in so doing, with the train from Brighton and Gatwick to Watford, which carries very few passengers north of Kensington, and which crosses the Connect route at Acton, where there is plenty of spare railway land for a link.
This would then provide trains from Heathrow to Clapham Junction and Croydon, and also from Gatwick to Ealing and Southall, as well as linking the two airports directly. None of these flows individually justifies their own train, but put them all together in the same train and you do so.
This would then provide trains from Heathrow to Clapham Junction and Croydon, and also from Gatwick to Ealing and Southall, as well as linking the two airports directly. None of these flows individually justifies their own train, but put them all together in the same train and you do so.