Willie swings his axe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: LGW - Hub of the Universe!
Posts: 978
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I take no delight in seeing people about to lose their jobs - why are these announcements always made at Christmas??? I lost my job three times under Thatcher's government (which is why, although a Conservative at heart, I will never vote Tory as long as one member of her government remains in an influential position) - always at Christmas - so sympathise with those who are about to be given the bad news!
If you operate one aeroplane, you need a couple of pilots, a handful of crew and a handling agent to tug your machine around and look after your pax/cargo. If you buy a second aeroplane, you need to double your staff. By the time you get to a dozen aircraft, it starts to become economically viable to employ your own ground handlers / check in staff.
What British Airways seemed to fail to grasp under any previous leadership is that, given its size, Waterside and its plethora of bureacratic departments is completely unjustified to "the core business" and puts a tremendous financial burden on the operation. (Just how much is taken for "Head Office Support Costs" from each ticket sold???)
To get back to "core business", almost every person working for BA should be involved either in selling tickets, negotiating preferential supplier rates, moving aeroplanes or passengers or maintaining equipment. Every other function for the airline is a direct cost "support" role and the jobs in this area need to be kept to the bare minimum.
I think this is what Messrs. Ayling and Eddington hinted at and what WW has identified. Whether the BA Board will let him have full rein remains to be seen!!! They have always shied away from compulsory redundancies and wholesale bloodletting before!
If you operate one aeroplane, you need a couple of pilots, a handful of crew and a handling agent to tug your machine around and look after your pax/cargo. If you buy a second aeroplane, you need to double your staff. By the time you get to a dozen aircraft, it starts to become economically viable to employ your own ground handlers / check in staff.
What British Airways seemed to fail to grasp under any previous leadership is that, given its size, Waterside and its plethora of bureacratic departments is completely unjustified to "the core business" and puts a tremendous financial burden on the operation. (Just how much is taken for "Head Office Support Costs" from each ticket sold???)
To get back to "core business", almost every person working for BA should be involved either in selling tickets, negotiating preferential supplier rates, moving aeroplanes or passengers or maintaining equipment. Every other function for the airline is a direct cost "support" role and the jobs in this area need to be kept to the bare minimum.
I think this is what Messrs. Ayling and Eddington hinted at and what WW has identified. Whether the BA Board will let him have full rein remains to be seen!!! They have always shied away from compulsory redundancies and wholesale bloodletting before!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Once WW defines what your "core business" is or will be, then BA pilots can decide if they need to worry.
Also you can be profitable and inefficient, you simply have to have the imagination to see what you could have made without the costs detailed on the large pile of paper in the mans office. One of those costs is pilots, but dont panic this side of christmas, he'll wear down your pay and T & C's over time like any other boss (except he will be more effective and ruthless because, after all he works for BA).
Also you can be profitable and inefficient, you simply have to have the imagination to see what you could have made without the costs detailed on the large pile of paper in the mans office. One of those costs is pilots, but dont panic this side of christmas, he'll wear down your pay and T & C's over time like any other boss (except he will be more effective and ruthless because, after all he works for BA).
To get back to "core business", almost every person working for BA should be involved either in selling tickets, negotiating preferential supplier rates, moving aeroplanes or passengers or maintaining equipment. Every other function for the airline is a direct cost "support" role and the jobs in this area need to be kept to the bare minimum.
I think this is what Messrs. Ayling and Eddington hinted at and what WW has identified. Whether the BA Board will let him have full rein remains to be seen!!! They have always shied away from compulsory redundancies and wholesale bloodletting before!
I call you back
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Alpha quadrant
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We shook our heads when you said he won't touch us on his appointment. We are shaking or heads again reading some of these hopelessly naive posts.
He will fire some of your managers and you will cheer.
He will close other sections and you will rationalise that it had to happen.
There will be a cull in maintenence and cabin crew and you will say we must accept this.
He will then turn on you.........
Some will cheer, other rationalise that it had to happen. Everyone will say you must accept it.
If you and every pilot you know are not averaging at least 820 hours a year I would recommend organising a march in support of those being let go asap. You will need friends.
He will fire some of your managers and you will cheer.
He will close other sections and you will rationalise that it had to happen.
There will be a cull in maintenence and cabin crew and you will say we must accept this.
He will then turn on you.........
Some will cheer, other rationalise that it had to happen. Everyone will say you must accept it.
If you and every pilot you know are not averaging at least 820 hours a year I would recommend organising a march in support of those being let go asap. You will need friends.
the lunatic fringe
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Everywhere
Age: 67
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you and every pilot you know are not averaging at least 820 hours a year
I could get a 4 sector day, done and dusted, in 7 hours at BHX. 20 minute turn-arounds. And off again. No problem. A bit behind? Ask for a visual. At LHR u have slots, congestion, and hours spent in the Lambourne hold. The airport is so congested it is impossible to do anything quickly. The infrastructure makes it very difficult to operate. Full stop.
Then u add in, Cabin Crew industrial agreements, The CAT lounge. No tug driver when u need it. Bus Drivers that appear when the lunch break is good and finished. A pier that won’t work, and a splash of snow, and it all grinds to a halt.
Willie can say.. You will all fly 900 hours. We can all say "Yes Sir". But without an awful lot being fixed first it will never happen.
L337
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Silly Cone Valley
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You have to try shorthaul at LHR until you acuse Nigel of swinging the lead. Almost everything is politically impossible. It takes forever for one simple request.
Face it, they can't even sort out the bloody sandwiches six months later!!
I'm damned if I'm going to do 2000hrs duty to fly 900hours. It's just not feasible.
I'll take on the opposition anyday. It's my management I can't beat!
Face it, they can't even sort out the bloody sandwiches six months later!!
I'm damned if I'm going to do 2000hrs duty to fly 900hours. It's just not feasible.
I'll take on the opposition anyday. It's my management I can't beat!
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Middlesesx
Posts: 2,075
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
L337 makes a very valid point but he is to polite. LHR is a third world dump, T5 in many respect will not streamline the operation to the degree that many will hope. You only need to look at the numerous problems experienced at T4. On another point T5 will require a lot of new ground equipment as designated by HAL. As with our aircraft aquisition there appears to be no money for any new investments (excluding First & Club), that at present is one of the key issues for WW. Offloading of staff will not help that issue in the immediate future
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So I guess short haul out of LHR isn't your core business or even worth continuing then,...
So give BACX your Airbuses and see if they can make it work, or BMI or let Easyjet have a crack. Why not put in a fast rail link to STN and LTN virgin trains can join the party.
Face facts; no matter how tough it is from LHR, passengers want to fly to/from it.
It is not important, and nobody cares, how many duty hours you put in to achieve 900 flying, provided it was the best anybody could achieve in the circumstances (which are the same for all LHR operators).
The most likely scenario is that your short haul product will change, and lets face it you've kindly been trialling not feeding passengers. No doubt there was a down turn in pax figures which by now will have returned to seasonal norms. welcome to the start of the low cost model.
Pilots are not first on the agenda of cost savings but you are on the agenda. Over time you will get shafted in all areas of pay and conditions to make the operation pay, if it doesn't pay it will be cut out because the competition from outside can do it without your overheads.
So give BACX your Airbuses and see if they can make it work, or BMI or let Easyjet have a crack. Why not put in a fast rail link to STN and LTN virgin trains can join the party.
Face facts; no matter how tough it is from LHR, passengers want to fly to/from it.
It is not important, and nobody cares, how many duty hours you put in to achieve 900 flying, provided it was the best anybody could achieve in the circumstances (which are the same for all LHR operators).
The most likely scenario is that your short haul product will change, and lets face it you've kindly been trialling not feeding passengers. No doubt there was a down turn in pax figures which by now will have returned to seasonal norms. welcome to the start of the low cost model.
Pilots are not first on the agenda of cost savings but you are on the agenda. Over time you will get shafted in all areas of pay and conditions to make the operation pay, if it doesn't pay it will be cut out because the competition from outside can do it without your overheads.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Nova
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
issi noho
"because the competition from outside can do it without your overheads."
"welcome to the start of the low cost model."
BA does not operate in a vacuum. It competes with virtually every carrier I can think of.
It has a business model of it's very own.
That business model recently made it the most profitable airline in the World!
Are you getting the hang of this yet???
"because the competition from outside can do it without your overheads."
"welcome to the start of the low cost model."
BA does not operate in a vacuum. It competes with virtually every carrier I can think of.
It has a business model of it's very own.
That business model recently made it the most profitable airline in the World!
Are you getting the hang of this yet???
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is not enough to be the most profitable airline in the world, airlines don't perform well in terms of turn over, staff levels overheads.
Stop comparing yourselves to other airlines and feeling smug, look at other similar sized businesses and what can and will be acheived.
The future is bright but not for all of you, and there is little you or any post here can do about it.
Stop comparing yourselves to other airlines and feeling smug, look at other similar sized businesses and what can and will be acheived.
The future is bright but not for all of you, and there is little you or any post here can do about it.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: where ever i wake up!!!!
Posts: 608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has anybody got an insight into the BACX roadshow that Evans and his mates are supposed to be unveiling around the bases this week ? the new direction of the company is supposed to be revealed to the masses so anyone any credible info?
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: over the hill
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thats right, all you doomsayers, make BA an even more anonymous and crap place to work and there will still be a queue right out the door to get spat-on from on high by the likes of the current management team, who hold the pilot workforce in open contempt!
I kind of doubt it somehow.
With no pension to look forward to, no bidding rights if the rumours are to be believed, an "attendance management policy" that flies in the face of the ANO, (premise: go sick, trigger an AMP "stage", require "improvement" = if your body lets you down again within a specified period = you are on the fast track to dismissal = so people fly when they are sick because their improvement plan compels them to), no career prospects as command time lengthens out, and flying 850 hours or so a year in a shorthaul, fixed-link, multi-sector touring environment, or 900 hours per year longhaul; then I am sure that the screw can be tightened some more and new joiners induced to join AND STAY with BA - not!
BA's employee relations with its pilot workforce are like something from the last century but one, and getting worse as they try to emulate the "success" of the Ry@nair "employee relations model", (scare the living daylights out of the workforce using lies, intimidation and deceit), into creating a cowed and abject workforce.
If you aspire to be an anonymous "cost problem", (recent pilot manager description of BA pilots), then come on down. Best you remain anonymous too, for if they do know your name you can expect its either because you are in a shee@ load of trouble or they want to force draft you (compulsory working on days off to cover pilot number shortfalls deliberately created to wreck the bidline agreement.)
Why do BA pilot management hold its pilots in open contempt? Because we are clinging - on to the pension and scheduling agreement that we signed on for as part of our contracts and this is stopping the upper echelons from reaping 350% bonuses if they bust our contract by getting rid of them.
Any idea that you are joining a "team" is pure fantasy. The guys and girls on the line are great - the camaraderie of the oppressed - but the BA team is not one where morale or a sense of joint purpose is going to be engendered by your employer.
I kind of doubt that the gleeful cries of the BA naysayers is going to cut it either. BMI, for example, are losing P2's as they treat them even worse than we do!
I kind of doubt it somehow.
With no pension to look forward to, no bidding rights if the rumours are to be believed, an "attendance management policy" that flies in the face of the ANO, (premise: go sick, trigger an AMP "stage", require "improvement" = if your body lets you down again within a specified period = you are on the fast track to dismissal = so people fly when they are sick because their improvement plan compels them to), no career prospects as command time lengthens out, and flying 850 hours or so a year in a shorthaul, fixed-link, multi-sector touring environment, or 900 hours per year longhaul; then I am sure that the screw can be tightened some more and new joiners induced to join AND STAY with BA - not!
BA's employee relations with its pilot workforce are like something from the last century but one, and getting worse as they try to emulate the "success" of the Ry@nair "employee relations model", (scare the living daylights out of the workforce using lies, intimidation and deceit), into creating a cowed and abject workforce.
If you aspire to be an anonymous "cost problem", (recent pilot manager description of BA pilots), then come on down. Best you remain anonymous too, for if they do know your name you can expect its either because you are in a shee@ load of trouble or they want to force draft you (compulsory working on days off to cover pilot number shortfalls deliberately created to wreck the bidline agreement.)
Why do BA pilot management hold its pilots in open contempt? Because we are clinging - on to the pension and scheduling agreement that we signed on for as part of our contracts and this is stopping the upper echelons from reaping 350% bonuses if they bust our contract by getting rid of them.
Any idea that you are joining a "team" is pure fantasy. The guys and girls on the line are great - the camaraderie of the oppressed - but the BA team is not one where morale or a sense of joint purpose is going to be engendered by your employer.
I kind of doubt that the gleeful cries of the BA naysayers is going to cut it either. BMI, for example, are losing P2's as they treat them even worse than we do!
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said Fred, or Fred said right, or Right said Fred.
Hang on to your Bidline, your Part Six, your downtown hotel. You owe it to the next generation of Pilots within (and outside) BA.
There seem to be so many that would like to see BA conditions go down the tube. Could it be simply envy?
Forget the standards that the low cost carriers management have imposed on their pilots. Leave you packed lunch at home. You are the best, make sure you maintain the conditions you deserve.
Hang on to your Bidline, your Part Six, your downtown hotel. You owe it to the next generation of Pilots within (and outside) BA.
There seem to be so many that would like to see BA conditions go down the tube. Could it be simply envy?
Forget the standards that the low cost carriers management have imposed on their pilots. Leave you packed lunch at home. You are the best, make sure you maintain the conditions you deserve.
Paxing All Over The World
ShortFinalFred
I am sad to hear of another company going down this route but it is nothing new, that does not make it any better, but you can look around and learn from those who have suffered and decided whether you fight, limp to retirement or get out.
Some 11 years ago, I was working for a multi-national (a global name that you would all know). I had been there less than the statutory two years for protected employment when I upset my manager [even without reporting his alchoholism]. Subsequently, HIS manager AND Humourless Remains believed his trumped up story. I asked an 'old lag' at the company what I should do. Fight this rubbish and seek compensation for unfair dismisal - or take a month's money in lieu and walk out to find another job and save myself the heart ache. He said, "This is what they do and they always win." So I walked and have no regrets. True I had much, MUCH less at stake but please do not think that BA is some kind of new and special nasty employer. Any big company must, sooner or later, come to this.
... scare the living daylights out of the workforce using lies, intimidation and deceit, into creating a cowed and abject workforce.
Some 11 years ago, I was working for a multi-national (a global name that you would all know). I had been there less than the statutory two years for protected employment when I upset my manager [even without reporting his alchoholism]. Subsequently, HIS manager AND Humourless Remains believed his trumped up story. I asked an 'old lag' at the company what I should do. Fight this rubbish and seek compensation for unfair dismisal - or take a month's money in lieu and walk out to find another job and save myself the heart ache. He said, "This is what they do and they always win." So I walked and have no regrets. True I had much, MUCH less at stake but please do not think that BA is some kind of new and special nasty employer. Any big company must, sooner or later, come to this.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some of these exchanges look pretty depressing. There appears to be no sense of BA folk feeling that they all belong to one company but rather that all of any other group are underworked,- unnecessary even, overpaid and largely superfluous. " Management" is a very broad term. Like any other business BA relies on people to both operate it and to sell, market, organise, negotiate ( there's a big world out there , all competing for its business), recruit etc etc. It needs excellence and efficiency in all it does or the competitors will finish it off ( and not all have to make a profit). It will only attract investment if it is a good commercial risk. If it isn't, folk will just lend money to and invest in other businesses instead. BA may be profitable as an airline but it's returns as a business are still not great. For each group to be at loggerheads with every other is a recipe for disaster. Changes in all sorts of things will be necessary to keep the company's head above water. Remember Pan Am, TWA and scores of others?
Factionalism is a disaster to any organisation,- just look at what has happened to political parties who have over indulged in it. There are good and bad managers, pilots, cabin crew, engineers etc etc. All should be sorted and any unnecessary ones thanked and sent on their way. Screaming " all managers are bad unnecessary etc etc" belittles the huge contribution made by many.
Factionalism is a disaster to any organisation,- just look at what has happened to political parties who have over indulged in it. There are good and bad managers, pilots, cabin crew, engineers etc etc. All should be sorted and any unnecessary ones thanked and sent on their way. Screaming " all managers are bad unnecessary etc etc" belittles the huge contribution made by many.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
qte
BA does not operate in a vacuum. It competes with virtually every carrier I can think of.
It has a business model of it's very own.
That business model recently made it the most profitable airline in the World!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tandemrotor
that's why you're a pilot not the CEO
BA has some excellent people and products but it is also out performed in some areas of your your business. In significant KPI's you are massively behind the competition. Skylion tells it well.
This thread is not named Willie surprises everybody by maintaining the status quo, nor is he ever likely to be quoted as saying if anybody needs me I'll be in my office checking out my new Laurel chair.
One of the objects of the current exercise is to reduce the cost base, pilots are part of it. If willie could pay you as bus drivers with bonuses for OTD or timely QRH drills and maybe a fellowship of the RAeS for a well handled V1 cut he would prefer it, you/we are necessary evils within the commercial aviation industry. He has said being a pilot is boring, even airbus call the 380 "uncrashable" (I know this is a misquote but it's the way it will be remembered); phrases like this devalue the profession. we are being attacked by our employers (as you would expect) but our status in the eyes of the general public has never been lower. Boys and Girls want to be celebrities not pilots. I, like you I'm sure, place great store by my professional conduct and achievements and I'm sadened when I see us brought into disrepute, but we should be united by and as a professional body to ensure standards, both professional and financial remuneration, are maintained, for the good of those in the profession today and those who will follow.
Unusually we should be taking advice from the health service. Doctors have only just demanded pay and conditions representative of the time and services for years provided on good will, the result being their status as a profession is now on the ascent. Our status needs to be raised, for heavens sake Actors give themselves awards continuously where once they were considered jesters and no hopers.
As for BA and the swinging axe, Willie has a team of people defining your core business, it no doubt runs to hundreds of pages, what you should do is sit down and decide where the seat you occupy sits within the multi-faceted business that is BA. Is it core, is under performing, is it savable or will it be axed. It is no good just saying the November figures look great, break them down and see where your problems are to identify where, if at all, the axe will fall. Be prepared and armed with the answers to the questions the business faces.
Willie wants BA to be profitable, so do you; it's a matter of degree. Justify the considerable cost you are for the sake of the rest of us.
Ta
BA does not operate in a vacuum. It competes with virtually every carrier I can think of.
It has a business model of it's very own.
That business model recently made it the most profitable airline in the World!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tandemrotor
that's why you're a pilot not the CEO
BA has some excellent people and products but it is also out performed in some areas of your your business. In significant KPI's you are massively behind the competition. Skylion tells it well.
This thread is not named Willie surprises everybody by maintaining the status quo, nor is he ever likely to be quoted as saying if anybody needs me I'll be in my office checking out my new Laurel chair.
One of the objects of the current exercise is to reduce the cost base, pilots are part of it. If willie could pay you as bus drivers with bonuses for OTD or timely QRH drills and maybe a fellowship of the RAeS for a well handled V1 cut he would prefer it, you/we are necessary evils within the commercial aviation industry. He has said being a pilot is boring, even airbus call the 380 "uncrashable" (I know this is a misquote but it's the way it will be remembered); phrases like this devalue the profession. we are being attacked by our employers (as you would expect) but our status in the eyes of the general public has never been lower. Boys and Girls want to be celebrities not pilots. I, like you I'm sure, place great store by my professional conduct and achievements and I'm sadened when I see us brought into disrepute, but we should be united by and as a professional body to ensure standards, both professional and financial remuneration, are maintained, for the good of those in the profession today and those who will follow.
Unusually we should be taking advice from the health service. Doctors have only just demanded pay and conditions representative of the time and services for years provided on good will, the result being their status as a profession is now on the ascent. Our status needs to be raised, for heavens sake Actors give themselves awards continuously where once they were considered jesters and no hopers.
As for BA and the swinging axe, Willie has a team of people defining your core business, it no doubt runs to hundreds of pages, what you should do is sit down and decide where the seat you occupy sits within the multi-faceted business that is BA. Is it core, is under performing, is it savable or will it be axed. It is no good just saying the November figures look great, break them down and see where your problems are to identify where, if at all, the axe will fall. Be prepared and armed with the answers to the questions the business faces.
Willie wants BA to be profitable, so do you; it's a matter of degree. Justify the considerable cost you are for the sake of the rest of us.
Ta