DONCASTER/SHEFFIELD
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The one you missed is the continuation of the Amsterdam flights into the summer season which is new.
Even though Pisa was a healthy route last year it has been reduced heavily for whatever reason. As you say Las Palmas and Tenerife have gone back to charter only.
It looks like one of the planes used for scheduled will be used for charter instead, as the charter programme grows heavily this coming summer. Therefore Thomsonfly will have 2 based for scheduled, 2 based for charter and then the part based 767.
In addition to all of the new Thomson charter routes there will be a Helios 737 doing a weekly run to Larnaca.
Even though Pisa was a healthy route last year it has been reduced heavily for whatever reason. As you say Las Palmas and Tenerife have gone back to charter only.
It looks like one of the planes used for scheduled will be used for charter instead, as the charter programme grows heavily this coming summer. Therefore Thomsonfly will have 2 based for scheduled, 2 based for charter and then the part based 767.
In addition to all of the new Thomson charter routes there will be a Helios 737 doing a weekly run to Larnaca.
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Re the AMS, I am only talking about summer or year round services, which is why I have discounted Geneva, Lyon (sched) and Turin (Charter)
I believe there are 7 (net) new IT's per week, correct me if I am wrong, Gareth44, (3 the long haul's, 4 short haul's, incl the Bodrum stolen from LBA). Will this off set those lost from the sched's in term of seats avaliable?
I believe there are 7 (net) new IT's per week, correct me if I am wrong, Gareth44, (3 the long haul's, 4 short haul's, incl the Bodrum stolen from LBA). Will this off set those lost from the sched's in term of seats avaliable?
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Lets not forget that they have added Ibiza this year as well as the cruise flights. Was Pisa that succesful? I don't think it was but then I haven't seen the Pax figures for that particular destination. The long haul and the basing over the weekends of the 767 are a major increase to say the airport will only have been open for 12 months. Frieght seems to be on the move up as well. TNT dropped in on Sunday from Barcelona leaving behind 20 pallets of goods before heading back to Madrid empty.
Personally I think that the airport in another 12 months time will see more operators coming and a scaling down again of Thomson flights. Well that is assuming Thomson have a 2 year opening contract anyway.
Anyone else's thoughts?
Rob
Personally I think that the airport in another 12 months time will see more operators coming and a scaling down again of Thomson flights. Well that is assuming Thomson have a 2 year opening contract anyway.
Anyone else's thoughts?
Rob
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There are 11 new IT's from Thomson. 3 Long haul - Cancun, Sanford and Puerto Plata, and 8 short haul - Salzburg, Bourgas, Reus, Pula, Naples, Verona, Dalaman and Zakynthos which have not been operated by Thomson. Bodrum was operated last year by Thomson.
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Thomsonfly are lacking in the innovation and sustainability departments... by that i mean the lack of aggressive expansion - this is what sets out true low-cost carriers from the try-hards.
Thomsonfly have drastically reduced scheduled flights from Doncaster (DSA) and Bournemouth (BOH) for summer 2006 (when everyone was expecting them to increase) because they are single-handedly trying to re-direct the public into flying charter.
IT WONT WORK
Thomsonfly (scheduled) will be sold off if they do not expand it and market it properly and these airports will experience a delay in the growth rates they have been expecting.
More expansion in the form of Ryanair, Jet2 and easyJet is essential to make the whole low-cost concept work
Thomsonfly have drastically reduced scheduled flights from Doncaster (DSA) and Bournemouth (BOH) for summer 2006 (when everyone was expecting them to increase) because they are single-handedly trying to re-direct the public into flying charter.
IT WONT WORK
Thomsonfly (scheduled) will be sold off if they do not expand it and market it properly and these airports will experience a delay in the growth rates they have been expecting.
More expansion in the form of Ryanair, Jet2 and easyJet is essential to make the whole low-cost concept work
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The minor reduction in Thomsonfly scheduled flights from DSA is disappointing but not a disaster. They appear to be concentrating on routes they are likely to fill. If sales go well they may add add extra flights, but in view of current high fuel costs they won't do this unless they are likely to get a good return on their additional costs.
However they do appear lacking in enterprise - the reduction in Pisa to one flight a week is a case in point. They've eliminated the short break market and restricted themselves to people taking a full week - hardly likely to attract the more wealthy frequent flier market.
If Thomsonfly do indeed have some sort of hold over DSA then Peel have to decide whether this is good for DSA in the long run - or would they be better allowing others take over routes currently monopolised by TOM.
Long term I'm sure the fiture is bright for DSA but it will take careful management to maximise the growth rate.
However they do appear lacking in enterprise - the reduction in Pisa to one flight a week is a case in point. They've eliminated the short break market and restricted themselves to people taking a full week - hardly likely to attract the more wealthy frequent flier market.
If Thomsonfly do indeed have some sort of hold over DSA then Peel have to decide whether this is good for DSA in the long run - or would they be better allowing others take over routes currently monopolised by TOM.
Long term I'm sure the fiture is bright for DSA but it will take careful management to maximise the growth rate.
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Yields are related to large conurbations and business traffic. DSA/Peel would have given major subsidies to any airline thinking of starting routes from DSA and I guess local development aid can be bid for?
The aid given to airlines tends to be on a sliding scale, so Thomson is re-evaluating routes that can make money against previous loss leaders.
DSA needs more variety, but if the 'start up' discounts are not there from the airport operator who has endured massive infrastructure 'fixed' costs, should Thomson dramatically reduce their presence, which airline will fill the void?
You can have the longest runway and/or the best terminal in the world, but unless you can deliver yield as wall as passenger numbers, where is your profit going to come from?
Leeds, Humberside and East Midlands have suffered for years with this conundrum. Jet2, Baby, Ryanair and easyJet have come to the aid of two of these airports, DSA needs another major airline prepared to see it through the subsidy period.
The aid given to airlines tends to be on a sliding scale, so Thomson is re-evaluating routes that can make money against previous loss leaders.
DSA needs more variety, but if the 'start up' discounts are not there from the airport operator who has endured massive infrastructure 'fixed' costs, should Thomson dramatically reduce their presence, which airline will fill the void?
You can have the longest runway and/or the best terminal in the world, but unless you can deliver yield as wall as passenger numbers, where is your profit going to come from?
Leeds, Humberside and East Midlands have suffered for years with this conundrum. Jet2, Baby, Ryanair and easyJet have come to the aid of two of these airports, DSA needs another major airline prepared to see it through the subsidy period.
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It would seem that if the PAx figures for today continue for the rest of the Geneva flights then DSA have an 80% capacity of this route. Not bad for a new airport and a new route. Why is it that HUY LBA and NEMA seem to be struggling for passengers when DSA seems to be grabbing a lot? NEMA I would have thought would be doing well, LBA and HUY I can understand somewhat. Correct me if I am wrong but they are both out of the way and poorly served by public Transport
Rob
Rob
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So it's Robin Hood v The World.
Don't forget that that they only started operations in March this year, a bit too late to capture the lucrative Summer market.
Frankly, they've done very well to do what they have so far.
I know that there are major plans for next summer, most which are firm commitments which will take passenger figures beyond 1 million by August 06. Thomson are significant, but not the only operator in the scheme.
Additionally, freight is doing very well, although this is always a tough one to crack, and they really do have tough competition from EMA.
Overall, its my personal opinion that Robin Hood will be a resounding success to the detriment of Bumbleside, but probaly not LBA or EMA.
Don't forget that that they only started operations in March this year, a bit too late to capture the lucrative Summer market.
Frankly, they've done very well to do what they have so far.
I know that there are major plans for next summer, most which are firm commitments which will take passenger figures beyond 1 million by August 06. Thomson are significant, but not the only operator in the scheme.
Additionally, freight is doing very well, although this is always a tough one to crack, and they really do have tough competition from EMA.
Overall, its my personal opinion that Robin Hood will be a resounding success to the detriment of Bumbleside, but probaly not LBA or EMA.
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I have to agree somewhat about Humberside being affected by DSA however I also believe Leeds will be unless of course they can find a buyer very quickly. As I understand LBA is for sale at £80 million because the council cannot afford to put any more cash into it and LBA sure does need a facelift.
LBA have also kicked out the University flight for whatever reason which won't affect it's profitabillity very much.
With regards the million Pax from DSA I would hope that this will be achieved long before August. I know the airport hoped to have 1 million pass through the airport by the end of the first year although this is now out of the question.
My concern is though that THO are trying to kill the 24 hour returns with the cuts they have made. First Dublin now Pisa and the loss completely of the Sheik flight however we are hearing rumours this may come back now that the troubles there seem to have died. Too late for 2006 though
As for freight I think the recent glodal Supplies and TNT deliveries will help push more our way. Where from and at a loss to whom I have no idea but I can't see DSA affecting NEMA at all in this commercial battle
Rob
LBA have also kicked out the University flight for whatever reason which won't affect it's profitabillity very much.
With regards the million Pax from DSA I would hope that this will be achieved long before August. I know the airport hoped to have 1 million pass through the airport by the end of the first year although this is now out of the question.
My concern is though that THO are trying to kill the 24 hour returns with the cuts they have made. First Dublin now Pisa and the loss completely of the Sheik flight however we are hearing rumours this may come back now that the troubles there seem to have died. Too late for 2006 though
As for freight I think the recent glodal Supplies and TNT deliveries will help push more our way. Where from and at a loss to whom I have no idea but I can't see DSA affecting NEMA at all in this commercial battle
Rob
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It would seem that if the PAx figures for today continue for the rest of the Geneva flights then DSA have an 80% capacity of this route. Not bad for a new airport and a new route. Why is it that HUY LBA and NEMA seem to be struggling for passengers when DSA seems to be grabbing a lot?
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madbadrob said about LBA (+ HUY)
"Correct me if I am wrong but they are both out of the way and poorly served by public Transport"
Unlike DSA, LBA is not in the country. It is situated within the city of Leeds boundary, and on the edge of the city of Bradford. There are no motorways to the door, but, there are public " A" roads that actually lead you to it, not farm tracks.There are regular bus services to Leeds, Bradford and Harrogate, and two railway stations serving two separate lines close by. 2.6 million passengers did manage to find their way to use LBA this year, 3 million expected next year. Approx 12-15% increase in pax each month this year, and that is since the start of DSA flights.
So struggling to find passengers I find hard to believe. Struggling to park all the aircraft, yes, and where to put the passengers through, yes I agree that the terminal is under pressure several times throughout the day, within a building that does need the injection of some private money spending on it.
With ref to "kicking out the University flight" ?. Not sure what you mean there. If you mean the UAS, then they left about 1959, when the tiger moths re-located to RAF Church Fenton, or could even have been RAF Finningley!.
If you mean something else, I'm not aware of anyone being kicked out, however, some of the aero clubs are finding difficulty in getting runway time due busy periods of schedule movements. But at the end of the day, what brings in the money? A handful of cessnaa doing circuits on sunny days or 50 to a hundred 100 scheduled airliners full of passengers eager to spend their money in the terminal and car parks, every day of the year.
DSA is a lovely airport indeed, with an excellent terminal, and has started with good numbers. Don't be surprised though if the pax figures take a dip each month as the anniversary of a year passes by. We appear to be seeing already a reduction in TOM flights for 2006, which so far has been DSA's bread and butter business. As was mentioned before, another carrier or carriers need to be found quickly to keep the momentum going on an upward trend, filling the void otherwise DSA will just become a CAA statistic, another regional airport, carrying about 650,000 to 1,000,000 pax a year, on par with Norwich, Exeter, Teesside and Humberside. Realistically that is all it can be. The likes of Cathay, Qantas, Singapore, Virgin, American, Emirates, PIA are not going to give DSA a second look. Manchester, like it or not, is the "local" airport for worldwide connections. Without feeder domestic and local internationals to connect with them, it would rely on thousands of locals needing to travel to Singapore on a regular basis, or people in Bangkok coming to Doncaster. and I don't think that's going to happen even if/when Doncaster Rovers beat Arsenal!
The area is well served to the North, LBA, the South NEMA, the West MAN and the East HUY. The airport (DSA) will have to do a lot more if it wants to make serious inroads into those other airports. However, offering what it does at the moment is possibly what it can reasonably justify and sustain for the future with a few extra flights here and there.
Therefore, it is just possible that DSA has reached its capacity as a regional airport so soon after it opened.
Unlike DSA, LBA is not in the country. It is situated within the city of Leeds boundary, and on the edge of the city of Bradford. There are no motorways to the door, but, there are public " A" roads that actually lead you to it, not farm tracks.There are regular bus services to Leeds, Bradford and Harrogate, and two railway stations serving two separate lines close by. 2.6 million passengers did manage to find their way to use LBA this year, 3 million expected next year. Approx 12-15% increase in pax each month this year, and that is since the start of DSA flights.
So struggling to find passengers I find hard to believe. Struggling to park all the aircraft, yes, and where to put the passengers through, yes I agree that the terminal is under pressure several times throughout the day, within a building that does need the injection of some private money spending on it.
With ref to "kicking out the University flight" ?. Not sure what you mean there. If you mean the UAS, then they left about 1959, when the tiger moths re-located to RAF Church Fenton, or could even have been RAF Finningley!.
If you mean something else, I'm not aware of anyone being kicked out, however, some of the aero clubs are finding difficulty in getting runway time due busy periods of schedule movements. But at the end of the day, what brings in the money? A handful of cessnaa doing circuits on sunny days or 50 to a hundred 100 scheduled airliners full of passengers eager to spend their money in the terminal and car parks, every day of the year.
DSA is a lovely airport indeed, with an excellent terminal, and has started with good numbers. Don't be surprised though if the pax figures take a dip each month as the anniversary of a year passes by. We appear to be seeing already a reduction in TOM flights for 2006, which so far has been DSA's bread and butter business. As was mentioned before, another carrier or carriers need to be found quickly to keep the momentum going on an upward trend, filling the void otherwise DSA will just become a CAA statistic, another regional airport, carrying about 650,000 to 1,000,000 pax a year, on par with Norwich, Exeter, Teesside and Humberside. Realistically that is all it can be. The likes of Cathay, Qantas, Singapore, Virgin, American, Emirates, PIA are not going to give DSA a second look. Manchester, like it or not, is the "local" airport for worldwide connections. Without feeder domestic and local internationals to connect with them, it would rely on thousands of locals needing to travel to Singapore on a regular basis, or people in Bangkok coming to Doncaster. and I don't think that's going to happen even if/when Doncaster Rovers beat Arsenal!
The area is well served to the North, LBA, the South NEMA, the West MAN and the East HUY. The airport (DSA) will have to do a lot more if it wants to make serious inroads into those other airports. However, offering what it does at the moment is possibly what it can reasonably justify and sustain for the future with a few extra flights here and there.
Therefore, it is just possible that DSA has reached its capacity as a regional airport so soon after it opened.
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With regards to the University flying school this was a group of 6 Cessna's that were based there. Leeds Uni flew them but for a reason no one can find out they were ejeected when their contract ended. Only one other airport would take them and that was Sandtoft. I agree though that this was probably to the benefit of LBA rather than the detriment.
DSA is not at the end of country lanes in fact it is served by the Great North Road. Granted it then drops onto one B road before hitting Finningley itself but this will all change should the new road be built.
I disagree that DSA seems to have met its operational maximum within 12 months although I do feel as everyone does that it needs to increase its operators if it is to expand further. As someone connected to the airport told me recently DSA as hit its 3 year plan for Pax in under 10 months. That isn't bad for a regional airport.
Talking to the Taxi drivers at DSA opened my eyes to the pax locales. He told me the longest trip he had taken was to take a passenger back to Manchester who was using DSA regulalrly for their flights. Apparently Leeds is a regular trip and I personally have seen quite a few Cab companies from leeds dropping people off. The 1/2 million customer in October was from Hull as well. I do wonder what percentage of local people have used the Airport for flights though. If DSA was to rely on locals then we would fail miserably but thats not the case.
As for operators Easy are in for the winter. We have the return of the pilgrim flights, we have the cruise flights from next year also. Also the long haul thomson. TCX are back ( did they ever leave). The only downside to the airport was the lack of takeup of the Transun Lapland trip which ended cancelled due to lack of interest but then at nearly a 1000 quid for a family of four for one day I think they priced themselves out of the market so close to Xmas
Rob
DSA is not at the end of country lanes in fact it is served by the Great North Road. Granted it then drops onto one B road before hitting Finningley itself but this will all change should the new road be built.
I disagree that DSA seems to have met its operational maximum within 12 months although I do feel as everyone does that it needs to increase its operators if it is to expand further. As someone connected to the airport told me recently DSA as hit its 3 year plan for Pax in under 10 months. That isn't bad for a regional airport.
Talking to the Taxi drivers at DSA opened my eyes to the pax locales. He told me the longest trip he had taken was to take a passenger back to Manchester who was using DSA regulalrly for their flights. Apparently Leeds is a regular trip and I personally have seen quite a few Cab companies from leeds dropping people off. The 1/2 million customer in October was from Hull as well. I do wonder what percentage of local people have used the Airport for flights though. If DSA was to rely on locals then we would fail miserably but thats not the case.
As for operators Easy are in for the winter. We have the return of the pilgrim flights, we have the cruise flights from next year also. Also the long haul thomson. TCX are back ( did they ever leave). The only downside to the airport was the lack of takeup of the Transun Lapland trip which ended cancelled due to lack of interest but then at nearly a 1000 quid for a family of four for one day I think they priced themselves out of the market so close to Xmas
Rob
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Some weeks ago there was much speculation on here about Ryanair setting up base at DSA, including a few postings saying "it's definate - more will be heard by Christmas..." or words to that effect.
The Big Day is just six days away and no more news yet - has this rumour died the death or has anyone got any more info. to rekindle it?
PS - Merry Christmas!
The Big Day is just six days away and no more news yet - has this rumour died the death or has anyone got any more info. to rekindle it?
PS - Merry Christmas!
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shamrock7seal
Re, Thomsonfly DRASTICALLY cutting summer 2006 from Bournemouth and Doncaster. How do you know that as Thomsonfly haven't uploaded all their summer 2006 schedule yet. From next April onwards BOH needs 3 aircraft to operate the routes already announced and the Thomsonfly homepage itself says more routes to be announced.
Re, Thomsonfly DRASTICALLY cutting summer 2006 from Bournemouth and Doncaster. How do you know that as Thomsonfly haven't uploaded all their summer 2006 schedule yet. From next April onwards BOH needs 3 aircraft to operate the routes already announced and the Thomsonfly homepage itself says more routes to be announced.
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There's no need for any doom and gloom over the prospects for DSA. It's had a great start, despite opening too late to capitalise on the revival in air travel post 9/11, at a time of (temporary) economic decline and in particular very high fuel prices.
There may well now be a short period of consolidation, but I expect steady growth over the next few years overall. You can't take away the fact that it is situated close to the East Coast Main Line (unlike any other airport except arguably Newcastle) and is at the Centre of the motorway network.
LBA is even difficult to get to from the Centre of Leeds (I know I've done it in the middle of the day), and MAN is a pig to get to from anywhere East of the Pennines. Even EMA is subject to the frequent problems on the M1.
Surface travel in the UK is becoming so difficult these days people are keener than ever to have a decent airport on their doorstep. That's what the several million people in Yorks, Notts and Lincs want from DSA, not necessarily another MAN but if we have plenty of choice for holiday flights plus links into a hub like LHR for long haul we'll all be happy.
There may well now be a short period of consolidation, but I expect steady growth over the next few years overall. You can't take away the fact that it is situated close to the East Coast Main Line (unlike any other airport except arguably Newcastle) and is at the Centre of the motorway network.
LBA is even difficult to get to from the Centre of Leeds (I know I've done it in the middle of the day), and MAN is a pig to get to from anywhere East of the Pennines. Even EMA is subject to the frequent problems on the M1.
Surface travel in the UK is becoming so difficult these days people are keener than ever to have a decent airport on their doorstep. That's what the several million people in Yorks, Notts and Lincs want from DSA, not necessarily another MAN but if we have plenty of choice for holiday flights plus links into a hub like LHR for long haul we'll all be happy.
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Big Al said
Surprisingly I hadn't heard this rumour and would have laughed at it had I done. Why would FR base any aircraft at DSA when they only fly a daily dublin flight. Now if they were doing say 6 or 7 then yes but not for just one flight a day.
What people have probably done is take a little info such as the recent interviews held at DSA and put 2 and 2 together to make 8
Rob
Some weeks ago there was much speculation on here about Ryanair setting up base at DSA, including a few postings saying "it's definate - more will be heard by Christmas..." or words to that effect.
The Big Day is just six days away and no more news yet - has this rumour died the death or has anyone got any more info. to rekindle it?
PS - Merry Christmas!
The Big Day is just six days away and no more news yet - has this rumour died the death or has anyone got any more info. to rekindle it?
PS - Merry Christmas!
What people have probably done is take a little info such as the recent interviews held at DSA and put 2 and 2 together to make 8
Rob
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madbadrob -
This was the original rumour thread. Some discussion regarding whether the FR based at EMA would mean no chance of a base at DSA.
No idea whether there ever was any truth in it. Would be great for me if they started doing DSA-MJV as well as the EMA route as I travel to MJV or ALC several times a year and the more options the better...
Previous rumour regarding DSA base for Ryanair.
This was the original rumour thread. Some discussion regarding whether the FR based at EMA would mean no chance of a base at DSA.
No idea whether there ever was any truth in it. Would be great for me if they started doing DSA-MJV as well as the EMA route as I travel to MJV or ALC several times a year and the more options the better...
Previous rumour regarding DSA base for Ryanair.