LUTON
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NOTAMS
Bacardi Walla - as I stated in my last post, the current NOTAM does not state a latest take-off time, merely the fact that the runway closes at midnight. My point concerning whether the Ryanair crew were Luton based or not, was that if they had been Luton based then they would have seen the old NOTAM which did state a "last departure time" and perhaps deduced that the same situation existed.
Indeed the crew made the point that they HAD read the NOTAM and could not see any refrence to 23.45.
King Pong - yes the BA 747 did depart at 23.55. There seems to be an element of discretion used by some Airport Duty Managers in allowing aircraft to depart after 23.45 as long as they are airborne by 23.59 and they understand that the runway is closing behind them so if they have an emergency they can't return to Luton.
In the case of the Ryanair, it would not have been airborne until 00.03.
Indeed the crew made the point that they HAD read the NOTAM and could not see any refrence to 23.45.
King Pong - yes the BA 747 did depart at 23.55. There seems to be an element of discretion used by some Airport Duty Managers in allowing aircraft to depart after 23.45 as long as they are airborne by 23.59 and they understand that the runway is closing behind them so if they have an emergency they can't return to Luton.
In the case of the Ryanair, it would not have been airborne until 00.03.
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So the rumour of an inaccurate NOTAM relating to the last departure by 23:45, or a lack off, seems to have some credence then?
As I said before, regardless of the accuracy of a NOTAM, to deny a flight to depart, in what was a rare, but controlled situation seems to be absurd. Obviously British Airways wielded more clout and influence than Ryanair?
Oh well, far few businesses seems to care about their customers these days!
As I said before, regardless of the accuracy of a NOTAM, to deny a flight to depart, in what was a rare, but controlled situation seems to be absurd. Obviously British Airways wielded more clout and influence than Ryanair?
Oh well, far few businesses seems to care about their customers these days!
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But, if I remember well, the Notams referred one to a Supplement (S 6/2006 of 14 February) for full details.
Para 6 and 7 are relevant:
6 Last Departing Flight
6.1 In order to permit closure of the runway on time the last departing flight must have achieved pushback and be de-coupled from push back tug by 2335 (local). Operators are notified that the last permitted departing flight during the period of closures will be 2345
(local).
7 Last Arriving Flight
7.1 In order to permit closure of the runway on time the last arriving flight must land by 2357 (local).
Not saying that a little pragmatism may not have been called for but I wasn't there and don't know what the immediate considerations were.
Para 6 and 7 are relevant:
6 Last Departing Flight
6.1 In order to permit closure of the runway on time the last departing flight must have achieved pushback and be de-coupled from push back tug by 2335 (local). Operators are notified that the last permitted departing flight during the period of closures will be 2345
(local).
7 Last Arriving Flight
7.1 In order to permit closure of the runway on time the last arriving flight must land by 2357 (local).
Not saying that a little pragmatism may not have been called for but I wasn't there and don't know what the immediate considerations were.
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From the styrian spirit website:
''...
On Monday, 27. March the insolvency proceedings will be started. On Tuesday the lawyer will be designated. As of the designation his contact details will be published on the Styrian Spirit Homepage.
Unfortunately we can not secure your transport if you are holder of a Styrian Spirit document. Please observe the special offers of other airlines for stranded Styrian Spirit passengers.
Passengers holding documents of Air France, Austrian Airlines and Swiss are kindly requested to contact the Call Center of the airline:
Air France 0150 222 2400
Austrian Airlines 05 1766
Swiss 0810 810 840
...''
Thats that then.
--
Nick
''...
On Monday, 27. March the insolvency proceedings will be started. On Tuesday the lawyer will be designated. As of the designation his contact details will be published on the Styrian Spirit Homepage.
Unfortunately we can not secure your transport if you are holder of a Styrian Spirit document. Please observe the special offers of other airlines for stranded Styrian Spirit passengers.
Passengers holding documents of Air France, Austrian Airlines and Swiss are kindly requested to contact the Call Center of the airline:
Air France 0150 222 2400
Austrian Airlines 05 1766
Swiss 0810 810 840
...''
Thats that then.
--
Nick
Last edited by Evileyes; 24th Mar 2006 at 19:27.
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Ah well - much like Volare, Debonair, Euroceltic, etc., etc., etc.
At least it won't much affect LTN's daily movements or its passenger figures.
Unfortunate though, for the airline's pax and employees.
At least it won't much affect LTN's daily movements or its passenger figures.
Unfortunate though, for the airline's pax and employees.
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Luton has changed out of all recognition in the last 10 years. Just switched on the radio with ATC reporting to an aircraft that they are number 6 to land. Who would have thought it could ever happen at Luton. I can remember the days when the last charter flight of the day would leave around 15.30 in the winter and scheduled services was a sole BMI summer service to Jersey. As for Now they became not Now.
A small selection of aircraft at Luton this month http://doug3658.fotopic.net/c877512.html
A small selection of aircraft at Luton this month http://doug3658.fotopic.net/c877512.html
Last edited by King Pong; 24th Mar 2006 at 20:02.
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I can remember when the only morning arrival before midday was the Air Continental Beech 90 from Bergamo during an early 1980's winter! The next was a Britannia Airways trooper!
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Air Turquoise opens new routes
March 28, 2006 : Daily service from London Luton to the heart of Champagne country.
Out of the ashes of Styrian........I hope they succeed, not personally seen any advertising locally, but then again, I never saw an advert enticing me to Klagenfurt.
Champers..........Mrs Buster loves the stuff!
Have you ever stood behind a bear full of gas with a lighted cigarette?
March 28, 2006 : Daily service from London Luton to the heart of Champagne country.
Out of the ashes of Styrian........I hope they succeed, not personally seen any advertising locally, but then again, I never saw an advert enticing me to Klagenfurt.
Champers..........Mrs Buster loves the stuff!
Have you ever stood behind a bear full of gas with a lighted cigarette?
Paxing All Over The World
Looking through the convoluted and awkward site that is www.london-luton.co.uk, I noticed an error in the OAG linked timetable pages and was going to report it to the webmaster but ... cannot find any link. Now, I am sure that the good folks are not hiding away from us lovely customers so, any guesses where I direct the information. Although I have no idea why I am bothering to help them! 
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Post it here, I am sure they need all the help that they can get and read this thread for assistance and guidance, well most of them anyway? 
As the Glam Rock band from the 1970's, The Sweet used to sing, "Does anyone know the way to block Buster"!
As the Glam Rock band from the 1970's, The Sweet used to sing, "Does anyone know the way to block Buster"!
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Daft bat
Quote From CAP 493
the location of the police helicopter's 'base' is now incompatible with the adjacent buildings, aprons and taxiways, and increasingly struggles to meet the required operating standards.
If this is the case by moving the helicopter to it's new base away from the taxiways which I heard is over by the fire ground this would get rid of the problem,also would it not have a Police presence at a weak security point of the airfield.
the location of the police helicopter's 'base' is now incompatible with the adjacent buildings, aprons and taxiways, and increasingly struggles to meet the required operating standards.
If this is the case by moving the helicopter to it's new base away from the taxiways which I heard is over by the fire ground this would get rid of the problem,also would it not have a Police presence at a weak security point of the airfield.
Location: Proposed Helicopter Base, Airport Way
Development: Erection of Aircraft hangar and offices for use as Helicopter Base - Discharge of
Condition 2 (Materials) of permission 05/01264/FUL dated 30th November 2005.
Applicant: Chiltern Air Support Unit WARD: WIGMORE
Agent: Chiltern Air Support Unit C/O Property Services Dept.
Thames Valley Police
PO Box 227
Kidlington, OX5 1YE
So suitable land has been identified, architect drawings have been made and an application submitted in November with an updated application being made this month. Doesn’t seem to me that the helicopter unit is moving very far after all.
Airport Way runs from Junction 10A of the M1 all the way into the airport central area past the Ibis.
Last edited by LTNman; 29th Mar 2006 at 06:22.
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Notams
Following the third "lock-in" of an aircraft last night I thought I would take a look at the relevant Notams once more.
Cahlibahn is quite correct in saying that there is a NOTAM that refers to a Supplement detaiing full details of the runway closures but this reference is in a seperate NOTAM. It is not part of the main NOTAM that spells out the dates and times of the runway closure which appears as the first NOTAM of the many in force for Luton.
Given that on all three occasions, the aircraft crews concerned were not aware of the Supplement, perhaps it is time for the airport authority to ammend the main NOTAM?
Cahlibahn is quite correct in saying that there is a NOTAM that refers to a Supplement detaiing full details of the runway closures but this reference is in a seperate NOTAM. It is not part of the main NOTAM that spells out the dates and times of the runway closure which appears as the first NOTAM of the many in force for Luton.
Given that on all three occasions, the aircraft crews concerned were not aware of the Supplement, perhaps it is time for the airport authority to ammend the main NOTAM?
LTNman it was my understanding that despite this application being made ... the site worked on and it all apparently being rosy the authorities at Luton Airport CANCELLED the project.
Thread Starter
So the airport authority agreed to a new location for a helipad and hangar that resulted in plans being drawn up and a planning application being submitted. A second application is then made this month due to the council rejecting the original plan due to the external finish of the building and then the airport authority changes its mind. Wonder who will pay for the costs of the project to date then?
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Chiltern police helicopter
Ltnman
I heard lots of money has been spent by the Police on this proposed site that was identified by the Airport as suitable, so I am of the same mind as you as to who will pay the bills. I had also heard the local Luton Authority are having meetings and are not happy that the airport has reduced the effectiveness of one of their crime deterrants
. If you look at the maps there is nowhere local the helicopter to go that has permission for night flying.Looking at CAP493 comments me thinks this is eviction is possibly being driven by luton NATS:
But only a rumour,Unless somebody from Luton NATS would like to put me straight.If the rumour is true about Luton Authority not being happy, what a great way to get expansion plans passed
I heard lots of money has been spent by the Police on this proposed site that was identified by the Airport as suitable, so I am of the same mind as you as to who will pay the bills. I had also heard the local Luton Authority are having meetings and are not happy that the airport has reduced the effectiveness of one of their crime deterrants
. If you look at the maps there is nowhere local the helicopter to go that has permission for night flying.Looking at CAP493 comments me thinks this is eviction is possibly being driven by luton NATS: But only a rumour,Unless somebody from Luton NATS would like to put me straight.If the rumour is true about Luton Authority not being happy, what a great way to get expansion plans passed
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Chiltern police helicopter
Originally Posted by Daft bat
Looking at CAP493 comments me thinks this is eviction is possibly being driven by luton NATS.
It's not up to NATS to decide which operators remain on the airfield and they would not actively seek to force any out. Their role is to provide the most professional service to all operators regardless of what is thrown at them. The issue surrounding the Police Helicopter Unit is one of compatabilty: it uses taxiway Delta as a clear run for take off and landing-a historic operation from days when this route was not as heavily utilised as it is now. With traffic levels at Luton continuing to rise, the issue can only get more complex. The controllers want to be able to provide an expeditious service to the police, but with new procedures, such as the long pushback from the cargo apron onto Delta, blocking the Flying club link or the use of long pushes from the East Apron to move more than one aircraft from there, the Police helicopter could be unavoidably delayed...not very good when on a CAT "A" shout!
There is also the issue of having a form of "runway" where free ranging vehicles frequently roam...can you imagine having vehicles popping on and off the runway willy-nilly without clearance
NATS have generally had a good working relationship with the Police and the helicopter also provides some good variety to the movements and it would be a shame to see them go.
The main point is how everyone can be accommodated effectively in an air traffic environment that is gradually getting busier and more complex.
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Copper Chopper
Captain Hightower I could be wrong but arent u missing the point somewhat?? Yes the increase in flights in and out of Luton will effect the chopper coppers but as I understand it this was identified years ago hence a new base for them!!! Ive been told that they would be conducting helipad take off and landings and not have any real effect at all with airport traffic! I suspect there will be someone somewhere who has instigated all this at a very late stage and I wouldn't be surprised that when all the negative press and pr comes rolling in (apparently the Luton populus aren't best pleased including the local dignatories) the airport will in fact attempt to deflect the heat onto someone else!!! Did someone mention safety?? oh who might have put that in as an excuse eh Hightower? I wonder if they will be able to handle the heat??
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Chiltern police helicopter
Hightower, I am with the previous post,the point of the move is to relocate the chopper to an area that would cause least disruption was it not. It is diificult to work out where the new base would have been from the park at the rear of the airport.I believe it would have been next to where the current construction works are now. If this is the case unless they built additional taxiways surely they would have to take off into the hover and would not have any effect on the taxiway traffic.I think your other views of your relationship with the police area correct that is good to hear. Then we go back to the original point is the airport authority putting profit before security and helping to look after local issues as well.