Willie Walsh is the man to head BA
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Ryanair has stripped swathes of cost out of the business
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Mate, Ryanair never HAD the costs in their business in the first place. That's the difference.
The name of the game is to get your production costs down below your revenues, because that's the only thing that you can influence at this stage of the game. The market defines how much it's going to pay and the SH market is pretty efficient (economically speaking) at the moment.
The perception is that anything above Ryanair's/EasyJet's etc headline offer is gouging and whether we like it or not, the punters have bought into that mindset
Ryanair has stripped swathes of cost out of the business
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Mate, Ryanair never HAD the costs in their business in the first place. That's the difference.
The name of the game is to get your production costs down below your revenues, because that's the only thing that you can influence at this stage of the game. The market defines how much it's going to pay and the SH market is pretty efficient (economically speaking) at the moment.
The perception is that anything above Ryanair's/EasyJet's etc headline offer is gouging and whether we like it or not, the punters have bought into that mindset
Junior trash
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I think he'd be wrong to pick a fight with the pilots, BALPA might be percieved as weak but they are well aware of growing discontent as things stand. The pilots may be quite a hard nut to crack, not easily replaced quickly, a single small group able to bring the airline to its knees in days. Ground staff can be subcontracted to limit disruption fairly rapidly in a protracted strike, and the Cabin crew have so many different sections it would be easy to take a group out one at a time, EF LHR, WW LGW, WW LHR knowing that one group will not strike for the other.
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....strike and you'll be the first to be sacked and you can kiss your hard-earned pension goodbye.
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Is it me or is there an air of denial about this thread?
A lot of what ShortFinal Fred said could be applied to EI...dangerous game to start underestimating what could happen.
New CEOs don't join companies to implement somebody else's plans.....
A lot of what ShortFinal Fred said could be applied to EI...dangerous game to start underestimating what could happen.
New CEOs don't join companies to implement somebody else's plans.....
Warning Toxic!
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The only denial I see is what may happen to peoples pension funds if something isn't done to rid BA of the dreadful inefficiency that plagues the business- bus drivers who hide in their buses reading newspapers, only do one way trips, loaders clocking on and off when they aren't anywhere near an airport, that apparently banish any supervisory people from the premises, cabin staff that can only do one or two flights a day when the competitors do four, and still get paid more than the copilots.
The pilots have delivered all the productivity asked of them. BA pilots work harder than comparable airlines- many are right up to as near mandatory annual limits as you can get. Their pay has been benchmarked in line with other UK airlines. I think the pilots have little to fear. Everybody else should be quaking.
The pilots have delivered all the productivity asked of them. BA pilots work harder than comparable airlines- many are right up to as near mandatory annual limits as you can get. Their pay has been benchmarked in line with other UK airlines. I think the pilots have little to fear. Everybody else should be quaking.
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I have to agree with some of the harsher theories, if he’s half as psychotic as some of the pilot managers we already have in BA we’re in for a good rimming.
One think that most likely won’t happen is airport hotels. They don’t offer the hefty discounts that BA demands, you’d be surprised how little BA are prepared to pay. Airport hotels can fill every bed at full price with the first wisp of fog. City Centre hotels are more likely to be attracted by the certainty of occupancy that BA bring, making the hotel managers' KRAs that bit easier to achieve. That is unless of course he decides that’s we’re going to stay in B&Bs and knocking shops!
No, it’s precisely because BA pilots roll over every time the Company barks at them that we'll be first in the queue to be shafted. I’ve never known a company where every year something else is given up for no return. We bargain, they promise, we sign, BA reneges. Add to that the 95% of pilots unprepared to do anything that jeopardises their personal position, and you have a group that are ‘low hanging fruit’.
I don’t know the man, but I’m sure he’ll find the opportunity to kick his pilot comrades square in the nuts irresistible.
Airline Pilot – one once prestigious occupation I won’t be recommending to my kids.
I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!
One think that most likely won’t happen is airport hotels. They don’t offer the hefty discounts that BA demands, you’d be surprised how little BA are prepared to pay. Airport hotels can fill every bed at full price with the first wisp of fog. City Centre hotels are more likely to be attracted by the certainty of occupancy that BA bring, making the hotel managers' KRAs that bit easier to achieve. That is unless of course he decides that’s we’re going to stay in B&Bs and knocking shops!
No, it’s precisely because BA pilots roll over every time the Company barks at them that we'll be first in the queue to be shafted. I’ve never known a company where every year something else is given up for no return. We bargain, they promise, we sign, BA reneges. Add to that the 95% of pilots unprepared to do anything that jeopardises their personal position, and you have a group that are ‘low hanging fruit’.
I don’t know the man, but I’m sure he’ll find the opportunity to kick his pilot comrades square in the nuts irresistible.
Airline Pilot – one once prestigious occupation I won’t be recommending to my kids.
I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!
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WW has indeed demonstrated a predisposition toward attacking pilots and their working conditions first.
Pilots are a high profile and envied elite in large airlines who make easy targets, not just 'pour encourager les autres' (which certainly helps his aims) but also because there is a clearly defined baseline...he only has to break the resistance and drive crew conditions down toward the legal limits to be seen to succeed. Being an ex-pilot he knows exactly where the weaknesses lie, and how to exploit them - better than with any other group.
Additionally there is a psychological element at play.
Walsh is an ex-pilot, and he had the jesuitical fanaticisim of a convert in the manner he attacked the pilots in Aer Lingus. He not only carried out an illegal lockout against them within weeks of taking the job (the company lost a court case and had to reimburse pilots for that later) but he also used every opportunity given him on the airwaves to describe the profession he once belonged to as being boring and unfulfilling drudgery - surely a contribution above and beyond the call of duty.
It can best be explained as a fervent desire to 'divorce' himself from any vestige or taint of 'the original sin' of membership of that awful profession - piloting. He had to be more Cromwellian than Cromwell himself if he were to satisfy his new buddies in Aer Lingus upper management (not to mention the other staff), that he wasn't going soft on his old buddies in the pilots union.
Who knows, maybe he feels the pilots in BA are indeed the place he has to start picking fights again? After all, he has to prove his credentials to the new audience, and this is a tried and trusted method for success.
Pilots are a high profile and envied elite in large airlines who make easy targets, not just 'pour encourager les autres' (which certainly helps his aims) but also because there is a clearly defined baseline...he only has to break the resistance and drive crew conditions down toward the legal limits to be seen to succeed. Being an ex-pilot he knows exactly where the weaknesses lie, and how to exploit them - better than with any other group.
Additionally there is a psychological element at play.
Walsh is an ex-pilot, and he had the jesuitical fanaticisim of a convert in the manner he attacked the pilots in Aer Lingus. He not only carried out an illegal lockout against them within weeks of taking the job (the company lost a court case and had to reimburse pilots for that later) but he also used every opportunity given him on the airwaves to describe the profession he once belonged to as being boring and unfulfilling drudgery - surely a contribution above and beyond the call of duty.
It can best be explained as a fervent desire to 'divorce' himself from any vestige or taint of 'the original sin' of membership of that awful profession - piloting. He had to be more Cromwellian than Cromwell himself if he were to satisfy his new buddies in Aer Lingus upper management (not to mention the other staff), that he wasn't going soft on his old buddies in the pilots union.
Who knows, maybe he feels the pilots in BA are indeed the place he has to start picking fights again? After all, he has to prove his credentials to the new audience, and this is a tried and trusted method for success.
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Quote 'rainboe'
"cabin staff that can only do one or two flights a day when the competitors do four, and still get paid more than the copilots."
Oh,give it a break rainboe
ALL the cabin crew i flew with yesterday had done between 50 and 60 hours in the preceding 6-7 days .
What do you want us doing - 70 hours a week?
Perhaps we should bring sleeping bags in and sleep on the aircraft
You guys used to get minimum 18-30 hours off downroute, with your new paydeal you don't , you get 10-12 hours , like us.
We're all working as hard as each other, so get your facts right , and stop this split and divide style of commenting on your colleagues
And as for the pay, how many pilots are on £8,900 basic - name me one ... as 65% of the cabin crew are capped now at £13,000-for life - thats not going to get them an executive pad in Richmond is it ? - no.
"cabin staff that can only do one or two flights a day when the competitors do four, and still get paid more than the copilots."
Oh,give it a break rainboe
ALL the cabin crew i flew with yesterday had done between 50 and 60 hours in the preceding 6-7 days .
What do you want us doing - 70 hours a week?
Perhaps we should bring sleeping bags in and sleep on the aircraft
You guys used to get minimum 18-30 hours off downroute, with your new paydeal you don't , you get 10-12 hours , like us.
We're all working as hard as each other, so get your facts right , and stop this split and divide style of commenting on your colleagues
And as for the pay, how many pilots are on £8,900 basic - name me one ... as 65% of the cabin crew are capped now at £13,000-for life - thats not going to get them an executive pad in Richmond is it ? - no.
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ALL the cabin crew i flew with yesterday had done between 50 and 60 hours in the preceding 6-7 days .
I would expect the CC to have done significantly less. This is a combination of inefficient rostering practices and inefficient agreements. Sadly, each influences the other. There needs to be movement on both sides (BA and BASSA) before anything gets better. I don't begrudge the CC their money, but I don't believe they do anywhere near enough flying hours (which is what we're paid for after all) to justify it.
BTW, the £13000 cap is for basic pay. Not great I agree, particularly in the South East, but £1000k a month in allowances has to help. (Friend's g/f is new contract main crew).
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SFF
BA ops from T5 are due to start in 2008. That is almost tomorrow in the planning cycle. You don't just move in without doing a lot of forward planning and walk throughs of how it all fits together. It all has to be worked out in advance right down to the manpower requirements which are largely affected by the working practises. All of this is underway NOW, with ongoing talks with the unions involved happening NOW.
This is on the critical path to T5 opening and is the focus of BA's 'Fit for 5' campaign. You clearly demonstrate a lack of business acumen in your posting.
TopBunk - I dont think we are as far apart as you suggest - when, for example is T5 due to start? Some years hence?
This is on the critical path to T5 opening and is the focus of BA's 'Fit for 5' campaign. You clearly demonstrate a lack of business acumen in your posting.
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Forgive the aside into schoolboy humour, but the latest issue of Private Eye that the e-mail sent out by BA to its trading partners failed to get through the Birmingham Airport firewall. It was rejected on the grounds of possible frequent use of inappropriate words. Think about it!
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Anti Ice
50 - 60 hours seems like a lot of flying for 6-7 days, I can't see how anybody could criticise you for working that hard.
Flying 9 hours a day, every day, around Europe must have been exhausting. Average 1hr 40 min per sector with 50 minute turnrounds would have you doing at least 3 sectors a day / 21 per week.
Of course that would just be the average for the people that you were flying with. Some must have done 25+ and others only 15 or so.
How many sectors did you do in that period?
50 - 60 hours seems like a lot of flying for 6-7 days, I can't see how anybody could criticise you for working that hard.
Flying 9 hours a day, every day, around Europe must have been exhausting. Average 1hr 40 min per sector with 50 minute turnrounds would have you doing at least 3 sectors a day / 21 per week.
Of course that would just be the average for the people that you were flying with. Some must have done 25+ and others only 15 or so.
How many sectors did you do in that period?
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I think we'll see a year of 'calm' whilst WW is being appraised of BA's situation and in particular our Crewing costs. Personally, I don't think he'll take on the Unions head first, rather a piecemeal, death by 1000 cuts approach. I imagine the 'easiest' option would be to tackle the overblown allowances, particulary Cabin Crew 'extra payments' such as 'poor destination payments' and 'working one down payments'. Slow erosion of so-called benefits may appear easier to tackle (though with BASSA even breathing out of turn could cause trouble), perhaps the ceasing of the parachute 'job pool' may go as well. BA's costs are still huge compared to other Airlines and I think WW will try and move towards Lo-cost in a slow, measured way. Interesting but potentially painful times ahead for some.
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Well 7 pages in ,and barely a good word to say about the guy it seems.
He is joining an airline that has already had 8 YEARS of cost cutting and efficiencies saving billions, and it would appear that he will stroll in and grab everyone by the ***** and say it Like what im doing to you or **** ***
As an ex air lingus employee who escaped WW's rule over AL to join BA has just said -
"You watch, the reign of terror is about to begin....."
He is joining an airline that has already had 8 YEARS of cost cutting and efficiencies saving billions, and it would appear that he will stroll in and grab everyone by the ***** and say it Like what im doing to you or **** ***
As an ex air lingus employee who escaped WW's rule over AL to join BA has just said -
"You watch, the reign of terror is about to begin....."
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Anti Ice
Go on - tell us how many sectors you did in your 60 hour week.
30 / 25 / 20 / 15 - or more like an average of just two a day?
Irrespective of how many hours you spend in uniform I would hazard a guess that the hours you spend between sectors in CC or CAT comfortably exceed those spent actually pushing your trolly.
Compass hours are 'duty' only in your imagination and contribute nothing to BA's bottom line.
The reign of terror should begin in the coffee bars.
Go on - tell us how many sectors you did in your 60 hour week.
30 / 25 / 20 / 15 - or more like an average of just two a day?
Irrespective of how many hours you spend in uniform I would hazard a guess that the hours you spend between sectors in CC or CAT comfortably exceed those spent actually pushing your trolly.
Compass hours are 'duty' only in your imagination and contribute nothing to BA's bottom line.
The reign of terror should begin in the coffee bars.
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Well perhaps i'm more productive pushing 'my trolley' around , than sat on my a*se reading the telegraph,mail etc......
We barely get a moment to ourselves on a flight , and collectively i think the flight crew visit the CAT lounge more than we do.
If we do go there it's barely for 30-40 mins on a long day 10-12 hours.....
I'm full-time,and have been to the CAT twice this year. Perhaps you'd be happy then if we spent 60 hours on our feet all week, with no break whatsoever -
I mean effectively the cruise is almost a rest period for you guys (except for a bru,man etc) , while with our bare minimum crewing levels we work nonstop all flight
It's not good to be on your feet nonstop all day for 12-14 hours + ,-and- we haven't got bupa cover for varicose veins etc.......
Give US a break
BALPA is doing a whole load of medical research on behalf of you guys at the moment - i think we are equally affected by anything you are , but in addition,long standing periods,and contact with various viruses/bacteria are an additional hazard too.
Quote - medical research -
"Varicose veins tend to be caused by standing up for long periods of time, for example as part of your job. "
We barely get a moment to ourselves on a flight , and collectively i think the flight crew visit the CAT lounge more than we do.
If we do go there it's barely for 30-40 mins on a long day 10-12 hours.....
I'm full-time,and have been to the CAT twice this year. Perhaps you'd be happy then if we spent 60 hours on our feet all week, with no break whatsoever -
I mean effectively the cruise is almost a rest period for you guys (except for a bru,man etc) , while with our bare minimum crewing levels we work nonstop all flight
It's not good to be on your feet nonstop all day for 12-14 hours + ,-and- we haven't got bupa cover for varicose veins etc.......
Give US a break
BALPA is doing a whole load of medical research on behalf of you guys at the moment - i think we are equally affected by anything you are , but in addition,long standing periods,and contact with various viruses/bacteria are an additional hazard too.
Quote - medical research -
"Varicose veins tend to be caused by standing up for long periods of time, for example as part of your job. "
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There was an embarrasing scene at the Compass Centre coffee bar yesterday when a distraught senior CC member was overheard being consoled by a P.E.
The P.E said 'don't be upset, W.W hasn't started yet and your allowances will be safe' but the CC sobbed 'I'm not worried about my job;I've just had to pay for my own latte!'
The P.E said 'don't be upset, W.W hasn't started yet and your allowances will be safe' but the CC sobbed 'I'm not worried about my job;I've just had to pay for my own latte!'
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Darkstar,
Very funny, but I think you mistook a flight engineer for a cc member...
Just FYI: 'Destination payments', to call the thing by its proper name, are not 'extra' payments. They are just a different way of dividing the pot of money that was always the cc's. In days gone by it was called MT allowance; those who drove home could claim mileage allowance. It was decided that this money should be split more evenly over all cc and per base. Hence 'destination payments' were devised. Therefore, not 'extra money'.
Very funny, but I think you mistook a flight engineer for a cc member...
Just FYI: 'Destination payments', to call the thing by its proper name, are not 'extra' payments. They are just a different way of dividing the pot of money that was always the cc's. In days gone by it was called MT allowance; those who drove home could claim mileage allowance. It was decided that this money should be split more evenly over all cc and per base. Hence 'destination payments' were devised. Therefore, not 'extra money'.