Hajj flights, profitable?
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Hajj flights, profitable?
Hi, might be a bit of a hard question but does anyone know if the Hajj flights are profitable? The reason I ask is that I have only seen pictures of national airlines operating Hajj flights and just thought that private charter companies would be jumping at the oppurtunity to operate hajj flights, if they were profitable.
I assume that most of the flights are full, with them cramming as many people as they can. But more importantley what price do these passengers pay for tickets and what are the yields like?
Im hope someone knows something...
Thanks
GOH
I assume that most of the flights are full, with them cramming as many people as they can. But more importantley what price do these passengers pay for tickets and what are the yields like?
Im hope someone knows something...
Thanks
GOH
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I would imagine that most of the Muslim
counties national airlines are committed
to operate these as a service and that is why the like of Garuda charter in large numbers of aircraft from MyTravel and the likes
G-I-B
counties national airlines are committed
to operate these as a service and that is why the like of Garuda charter in large numbers of aircraft from MyTravel and the likes
G-I-B
Thread Starter
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Ok I just did a bit of research in some old topics in relation to the hajj and it seems that yes private charter operators do fly the hajj (eg Britannia) although I still dont know whether these private charter companies simply supply aircraft for national carriers eg Garuda.
Apparentley the Saudi Government gives out contracts to operators to do these hajj flights. This brings me to another question, does anyone know anything about these contracts and what they include?
Thanks
GOH
Apparentley the Saudi Government gives out contracts to operators to do these hajj flights. This brings me to another question, does anyone know anything about these contracts and what they include?
Thanks
GOH
Some of the independent charter operators have done Hadj work for many years; presumably they wouldn't do so if not worth their while.
As the Hadj moves by a couple of weeks each year (Muslim posters will be able to give us the detail) it follows that sometimes in years like the current one it happens at a low period for UK charter operators, and is a real boon for winter utilisation.
European and North American charter operators have long dominated the additional lift, but there are now some Gulf-based operators with older Tristars etc playing a part (for accounts of crew life with them, see other posts here on PPRuNe !).
The national operators however seem to front much of this; often the chartered capacity is repainted (or partially so) in a national carrier livery. Saudi Arabian and Garuda both seem to do this. Saudi of course plays an overall coordinating role in the whole thing, including the dedicated Hadj charter terminal at Jeddah (which is presumably closed the rest of the year).
As the Hadj moves by a couple of weeks each year (Muslim posters will be able to give us the detail) it follows that sometimes in years like the current one it happens at a low period for UK charter operators, and is a real boon for winter utilisation.
European and North American charter operators have long dominated the additional lift, but there are now some Gulf-based operators with older Tristars etc playing a part (for accounts of crew life with them, see other posts here on PPRuNe !).
The national operators however seem to front much of this; often the chartered capacity is repainted (or partially so) in a national carrier livery. Saudi Arabian and Garuda both seem to do this. Saudi of course plays an overall coordinating role in the whole thing, including the dedicated Hadj charter terminal at Jeddah (which is presumably closed the rest of the year).
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Britannia and MyTravel have operated on the Hajj for a number of years now, predominantly out of Indonesia. The contracts are awarded by the Indonesian Ministry of Religion and operators have to meet fairly strict guidlines, age of aircraft for one. The contracts are damp lease, UK aircraft and flight deck, Garuda cabin crew. The aircraft get the Garuda stickers on the tail and side and operate under Garuda Hajj flight numbers, although they retain the G- reg. The overall operation is run by Garuda ops with small teams from the relevant airline in theatre as go-betweens and sorting out issues with their own crews. The engineering will generally be done by the airlines own detached engineers.
The operation itself is generally a good revenue earner, however the costs are also fairly high. Hotac for crew and ground staff, allowances, positioning costs, etc. The operation may or may not make a profit but at the end of the day it is better to have the aircraft on a 3 months contract than have them sitting on the ground in the UK trying to pick up ad-hoc work.
The operation itself is generally a good revenue earner, however the costs are also fairly high. Hotac for crew and ground staff, allowances, positioning costs, etc. The operation may or may not make a profit but at the end of the day it is better to have the aircraft on a 3 months contract than have them sitting on the ground in the UK trying to pick up ad-hoc work.
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An airline (Egyptian, I think) with the flight prefix 'AMV' operated Hajj flights from London Stansted (STN) for those on the pilgrimage. The outbound flights were to originally operate from LHR but then moved to STN, allegegedly because of unpaid handling fees at Heathrow. The flights operated with lengthy delays, mainly on the outbound flights but with some delays on the return flights too. The tour operator, whoever they were, clearly were not organised at such trips - but whether they made any money from it, i'm not sure - doubtful I would have thought.
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hasta
why would STN (proprietor BAA) give a home to those fleeing the bills of LHR (prop. BAA)? Or is this an inside look at BAA joined up-ness?
why would STN (proprietor BAA) give a home to those fleeing the bills of LHR (prop. BAA)? Or is this an inside look at BAA joined up-ness?
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Britannia has provided 5 763s including flight crew and engineer this year. Not sure what the commitment will be next year but the deal must have been worthwile since this is the 9th year they do it.
With an increasing long haul programme during the winter, things might change in the future but then again we will only know for sure by December 05.
As for the the state of A/C by the end of the flight, they aren't worse than any other long haul but then again I have heard horror stories well before operating these flights so I am only talking from a limited experience.
I can't vouch for all but our Indonesian customers have proven to be all well behaved and grateful.
I often think about how I would feel if I was to spend all my lifetime savings on a 10 hours bus journey to some airport, then a nearly 3 hours flight to Batam, an hour turn around, 10h20 to AUH, another hour turn around followed by a three hour flight to JED. And that would only be the beginning of a month long journey!
Different contract, different outcome I suppose.
With an increasing long haul programme during the winter, things might change in the future but then again we will only know for sure by December 05.
As for the the state of A/C by the end of the flight, they aren't worse than any other long haul but then again I have heard horror stories well before operating these flights so I am only talking from a limited experience.
I can't vouch for all but our Indonesian customers have proven to be all well behaved and grateful.
I often think about how I would feel if I was to spend all my lifetime savings on a 10 hours bus journey to some airport, then a nearly 3 hours flight to Batam, an hour turn around, 10h20 to AUH, another hour turn around followed by a three hour flight to JED. And that would only be the beginning of a month long journey!
Different contract, different outcome I suppose.
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Any reason why there seem to be plenty of Hajj flights from MAN, but few from BHX (unless I'm much mistaken).
Amex,
I passed through JED a few years ago, and there was a flight arriving from western Africa. It was just after the Hajj season, but as I understand it, trips to Mecca (Umra?) may still be taken at other times of the year.
The pilgrims had brought their food for the trip with them, and customs officials were just pouring it out all over the counter, showing no concern at all for their guests. Now I know there are lots of things they don't want you to bring in to KSA, but there are ways of doing this in a courteous manner, without sending people on hungry and humiliated.
Amex,
I passed through JED a few years ago, and there was a flight arriving from western Africa. It was just after the Hajj season, but as I understand it, trips to Mecca (Umra?) may still be taken at other times of the year.
The pilgrims had brought their food for the trip with them, and customs officials were just pouring it out all over the counter, showing no concern at all for their guests. Now I know there are lots of things they don't want you to bring in to KSA, but there are ways of doing this in a courteous manner, without sending people on hungry and humiliated.
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Our Hajj operation this year will involve about 10,000 hours of additional flight time, 4000 of which will be done by leased aircraft. It makes tonnes of money.
There is a difference between Hajj and Umra. Hajj is a required part of the moslem faith and should be done at least once in a persons life. Hajj is performed from the 05-09 of the Islamic month of Dhu Al-Hajjah. Umra is a mini Hajj, it can be performed throughout the year.
but there are ways of doing this in a courteous manner, without sending people on hungry and humiliated They did actually get x-ray machines for checking inbound luggage, but certain flights are still met with the same "traditional welcome".
Hajj draws all types of airline cowboys seeking a fast buck, some have succeeded while others have become infamous in Pprune.
Mutt.
There is a difference between Hajj and Umra. Hajj is a required part of the moslem faith and should be done at least once in a persons life. Hajj is performed from the 05-09 of the Islamic month of Dhu Al-Hajjah. Umra is a mini Hajj, it can be performed throughout the year.
but there are ways of doing this in a courteous manner, without sending people on hungry and humiliated They did actually get x-ray machines for checking inbound luggage, but certain flights are still met with the same "traditional welcome".
Hajj draws all types of airline cowboys seeking a fast buck, some have succeeded while others have become infamous in Pprune.
Mutt.
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It must make money for some airlines for a short period of time.
But its strange that others such as FCA, XLA and TCX choose to lease there aircraft out to North America for most of the winter season, must make them more money i guess , but i do remember JMC leasing a A330 to Garuda a few years ago.
But its strange that others such as FCA, XLA and TCX choose to lease there aircraft out to North America for most of the winter season, must make them more money i guess , but i do remember JMC leasing a A330 to Garuda a few years ago.
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Hajj flight
a travel service of Czech Republic b737-800 and two SMC(A310 and A300 of Eygpt operated out of LHR for the Hajj. They were away for about three weeks and I overheard a package trip of Hajj is a couple of thousand.
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AMEX wrote: I often think about how I would feel if I was to spend all my lifetime savings on a 10 hours bus journey to some airport, then a nearly 3 hours flight to Batam, an hour turn around, 10h20 to AUH, another hour turn around followed by a three hour flight to JED. And that would only be the beginning of a month long journey!
No Amex, Muslims don't need to spend all their savings for Hajj. Muslims can only perform it IF they have EXTRA money.
As Mutt said, Umrah is usually done in a few hours.
Cheers
guybrush
No Amex, Muslims don't need to spend all their savings for Hajj. Muslims can only perform it IF they have EXTRA money.
As Mutt said, Umrah is usually done in a few hours.
Cheers
guybrush
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guybrush,
No Amex, Muslims don't need to spend all their savings for Hajj. Muslims can only perform it IF they have EXTRA money.
The majority of Hajj passengers dont appear to have money to clothe themselves, let alone finance a month long trip to Saudi !!.
HZ123. AMC airlines promptly abandoned their passengers in Jeddah, the A310 was impounded. The passengers were delayed until the authorities found alternatative aircraft. Airlines who desire to operate the Hajj are bonded, so i guess that AMC wont have happy memories of Hajj 25.
Mutt.
No Amex, Muslims don't need to spend all their savings for Hajj. Muslims can only perform it IF they have EXTRA money.
The majority of Hajj passengers dont appear to have money to clothe themselves, let alone finance a month long trip to Saudi !!.
HZ123. AMC airlines promptly abandoned their passengers in Jeddah, the A310 was impounded. The passengers were delayed until the authorities found alternatative aircraft. Airlines who desire to operate the Hajj are bonded, so i guess that AMC wont have happy memories of Hajj 25.
Mutt.
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guybrush
I beg to differ. It is common for Indonesian Muslims travelling to the Hajj to be doing so as the representative of their small village or cummunity. The trip will have been funded by the community and the individual who has been selected will be representing all of his or her fellow Muslims.
I beg to differ. It is common for Indonesian Muslims travelling to the Hajj to be doing so as the representative of their small village or cummunity. The trip will have been funded by the community and the individual who has been selected will be representing all of his or her fellow Muslims.
