Bungling MAN on Boxing Day
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chiglet
If "intelligence" and "ATC" are ever to be found in the same sentence and perhaps the word "respect", then we should be aware of our customers' difficulties.
Pro-active and helpful ATC would perhaps have instigated a help and/or liaison line in the circumstances you describe.....or was there a reason other than sheer bloody-mindedness that led to your contribution?
I don't think you meant it to read like it did!!!
If our job was easy anyone could do it....wake-up your supervisor...."it's not my problem" is not in my vocabulary, these people pay our wages.
Merry Christmas.
Pro-active and helpful ATC would perhaps have instigated a help and/or liaison line in the circumstances you describe.....or was there a reason other than sheer bloody-mindedness that led to your contribution?
I don't think you meant it to read like it did!!!
If our job was easy anyone could do it....wake-up your supervisor...."it's not my problem" is not in my vocabulary, these people pay our wages.
Merry Christmas.
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055166k
The "not my prob" is the Airlne/Handling agent response, not mine. [Bad grammar, sorry]. We and I suspect all the Airlines recieved the flow docs about updating EOBTs if a delay of 15mins or more was anticipated. Yesterday [and today, I lost count of the number of calls to the Airlines/HAs that were made, not only by me, but the Tower Sup as well.
One a/c departed just as a FLS popped up on our DSM
Today, four a/c from one company dropped their squawks, and had to be re-paired in 15mins. They were filing for a 1500 dep, but not expected to arrive until1900
Happy New Year
watp,iktch
The "not my prob" is the Airlne/Handling agent response, not mine. [Bad grammar, sorry]. We and I suspect all the Airlines recieved the flow docs about updating EOBTs if a delay of 15mins or more was anticipated. Yesterday [and today, I lost count of the number of calls to the Airlines/HAs that were made, not only by me, but the Tower Sup as well.
One a/c departed just as a FLS popped up on our DSM
Today, four a/c from one company dropped their squawks, and had to be re-paired in 15mins. They were filing for a 1500 dep, but not expected to arrive until1900
Happy New Year
watp,iktch
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Well what a refreshing change it has been for us on L'Avion Plastique to operate out of HEL this winter. Previously the bastion of the Luddites, they have been favoured with our new Airbus and very sharp pencils.
What of this thread you may ask - well, I cannot believe the efficiency of HEL, it gets icy, they sort it, you need pre heat, it's already there, you need de ice, a man on your wingtip quitely calls you on the 'iceman' freq and reminds you of his presence.
Why can't some of the other airports offer such a professional service
What of this thread you may ask - well, I cannot believe the efficiency of HEL, it gets icy, they sort it, you need pre heat, it's already there, you need de ice, a man on your wingtip quitely calls you on the 'iceman' freq and reminds you of his presence.
Why can't some of the other airports offer such a professional service
surely not,
the initial post talks about a/c bays like glass. I understand from your message that this is part of the responsibility of the airport. Further more, if the apt cost is too high (NOT the case of MAN, I think) airlines would try to save money by employing fewer handling staff (to load the a/c among other things). Hence delays.
No the supply, it is obvious that sometimes it may run into some difficulties but if it happends more than once there is a problem. Maybe some debriefing needs to be done and see why there is a problem (maybe stocks are too low or the supplier not close enough). But obvious that takes time and money which a business does not want to spent if it is a monopoly that does not report to the users but to their shareholders.
Rwy in Sight
PS. I stand to be correct if MAN does hold some assesement about the past perfomance... My remarks hold true for some other airport companies not too distant from MAN that has 2 closures because of snow in as many years.
the initial post talks about a/c bays like glass. I understand from your message that this is part of the responsibility of the airport. Further more, if the apt cost is too high (NOT the case of MAN, I think) airlines would try to save money by employing fewer handling staff (to load the a/c among other things). Hence delays.
No the supply, it is obvious that sometimes it may run into some difficulties but if it happends more than once there is a problem. Maybe some debriefing needs to be done and see why there is a problem (maybe stocks are too low or the supplier not close enough). But obvious that takes time and money which a business does not want to spent if it is a monopoly that does not report to the users but to their shareholders.
Rwy in Sight
PS. I stand to be correct if MAN does hold some assesement about the past perfomance... My remarks hold true for some other airport companies not too distant from MAN that has 2 closures because of snow in as many years.
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From today's Manchester Online. It does not make good reading.
Airport de-icer fiasco wrecks 1,000 holidays
NIGHTMARE: Jessica and Philip had to cancel their trip
MORE than 1,000 holidaymakers at Manchester Airport had their Christmas and New Year travel plans ruined because there was not enough de-icer to clear planes.
Some passengers of airline bmibaby and its parent company bmi were kept waiting for up to 10 hours before being told to go home or stay in a hotel because their planes could not take off.
People were kept waiting on board one flight for nearly three hours before being moved to a departure lounge.
The airport chaos unfolded on Boxing Day as bmi and bmibaby were forced to cancel 17 flights when the de-icing fluid used to stop the wings of planes freezing over ran out.
It is estimated that more than 1,000 passengers were affected as 10 flights to Belfast and Knock, in Ireland, London Heathrow, Jersey, Alicante and Malaga, Prague and Chicago were cancelled. A flight to Washington D.C. was delayed for over five hours.
Some people were forced to cancel their holidays because they could not get on another connecting flight to their holiday destinations and one couple had to cancel their wedding in the Dominican Republic.
Others stayed overnight in hotels or at home before flying out from Manchester yesterday, while about 200 passengers had to travel from East Midlands Airport.
Jessica and Philip Abram, from Warrington, were due to spend New Year with family in India but had to cancel their £1,600 holiday.
Police
They were due to leave Manchester at 2.30pm on Boxing Day on a bmibaby flight to Heathrow, where they had to catch an 8.35pm flight to Delhi.
But they were kept waiting on the tarmac in Manchester for nearly three hours, before spending five hours in a departure lounge monitored by three armed police officers, only to be told their flight had been cancelled.
To compound their misery, they returned home last night to find their house was flooded.
Jessica, 28, an area manager for Kumon Educational UK in Cheadle Hulme, said: "It's an absolute disgrace. We spent nearly three hours on the plane while they tried to de-ice it, in which time the cabin crew were very rude. We were then told to get off only to spend hours being watched by three armed police officers in a departure lounge. No one told us anything or even began to apologise. We got to Heathrow yesterday afternoon, having spent the night in a hotel in Stockport but there was only space for one of us on the flight to Delhi as we'd obviously missed our original flight the night before. We had no alternative but to cancel the holiday."
John and Gwenda Newton, from North Wales, were due out on the same flight to Heathrow. They eventually caught an 8pm flight to Nairobi, Kenya, last night - 24 hours late.
Elizabeth Rhodes, from Rawtenstall, Lancashire, who was travelling to Prague, said: "We were treated disgracefully. There was absolutely no information at the airport, no one told us what was happening. Staff were rude when we asked for information and we didn't even get a cup of tea. The long-haul people were put up in hotels, but all the bmibaby people were kept in the lounges and eventually sent home. Then there were more delays the following day. It was complete chaos and the staff were very unhelpful. "
The bmibaby flights to Belfast, Knock, Malaga and Prague and two bmi flights to Heathrow were rescheduled for yesterday.
One bmi flight to Heathrow was rescheduled for later that day.
The flights to Jersey and Alicante were re-routed from East Midlands yesterday, while the Chicago flight was re-scheduled for today.
A spokesman for bmi and bmibaby apologised and said Aviance UK, which handles ground handling and baggage handling at Manchester Airport, was responsible for de-icing.
He said: "It was a safety issue and we regret any delays caused. Because there were no flights on Christmas Day some of the planes' wings were very frozen."
No one was available to comment for Aviance UK.
Airport de-icer fiasco wrecks 1,000 holidays
NIGHTMARE: Jessica and Philip had to cancel their trip
MORE than 1,000 holidaymakers at Manchester Airport had their Christmas and New Year travel plans ruined because there was not enough de-icer to clear planes.
Some passengers of airline bmibaby and its parent company bmi were kept waiting for up to 10 hours before being told to go home or stay in a hotel because their planes could not take off.
People were kept waiting on board one flight for nearly three hours before being moved to a departure lounge.
The airport chaos unfolded on Boxing Day as bmi and bmibaby were forced to cancel 17 flights when the de-icing fluid used to stop the wings of planes freezing over ran out.
It is estimated that more than 1,000 passengers were affected as 10 flights to Belfast and Knock, in Ireland, London Heathrow, Jersey, Alicante and Malaga, Prague and Chicago were cancelled. A flight to Washington D.C. was delayed for over five hours.
Some people were forced to cancel their holidays because they could not get on another connecting flight to their holiday destinations and one couple had to cancel their wedding in the Dominican Republic.
Others stayed overnight in hotels or at home before flying out from Manchester yesterday, while about 200 passengers had to travel from East Midlands Airport.
Jessica and Philip Abram, from Warrington, were due to spend New Year with family in India but had to cancel their £1,600 holiday.
Police
They were due to leave Manchester at 2.30pm on Boxing Day on a bmibaby flight to Heathrow, where they had to catch an 8.35pm flight to Delhi.
But they were kept waiting on the tarmac in Manchester for nearly three hours, before spending five hours in a departure lounge monitored by three armed police officers, only to be told their flight had been cancelled.
To compound their misery, they returned home last night to find their house was flooded.
Jessica, 28, an area manager for Kumon Educational UK in Cheadle Hulme, said: "It's an absolute disgrace. We spent nearly three hours on the plane while they tried to de-ice it, in which time the cabin crew were very rude. We were then told to get off only to spend hours being watched by three armed police officers in a departure lounge. No one told us anything or even began to apologise. We got to Heathrow yesterday afternoon, having spent the night in a hotel in Stockport but there was only space for one of us on the flight to Delhi as we'd obviously missed our original flight the night before. We had no alternative but to cancel the holiday."
John and Gwenda Newton, from North Wales, were due out on the same flight to Heathrow. They eventually caught an 8pm flight to Nairobi, Kenya, last night - 24 hours late.
Elizabeth Rhodes, from Rawtenstall, Lancashire, who was travelling to Prague, said: "We were treated disgracefully. There was absolutely no information at the airport, no one told us what was happening. Staff were rude when we asked for information and we didn't even get a cup of tea. The long-haul people were put up in hotels, but all the bmibaby people were kept in the lounges and eventually sent home. Then there were more delays the following day. It was complete chaos and the staff were very unhelpful. "
The bmibaby flights to Belfast, Knock, Malaga and Prague and two bmi flights to Heathrow were rescheduled for yesterday.
One bmi flight to Heathrow was rescheduled for later that day.
The flights to Jersey and Alicante were re-routed from East Midlands yesterday, while the Chicago flight was re-scheduled for today.
A spokesman for bmi and bmibaby apologised and said Aviance UK, which handles ground handling and baggage handling at Manchester Airport, was responsible for de-icing.
He said: "It was a safety issue and we regret any delays caused. Because there were no flights on Christmas Day some of the planes' wings were very frozen."
No one was available to comment for Aviance UK.
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It was a chaotic weekend with de-icing fluid shortage that finally brought down Air Europe.
BA had agreed to supply the stuff, then suddenly decided that it had run out.
The diversions and the delays proved to be the final straw and the company went into receivership shortly afterwards.
BA had agreed to supply the stuff, then suddenly decided that it had run out.
The diversions and the delays proved to be the final straw and the company went into receivership shortly afterwards.
Slug, not having worked at MAN perhaps you can answer a question for me? Do the Handling Agents at MAN operate a De-icing club for all airlines?
If they do then I can understand why there would only be one de-icing storage tank for everyone, if they don't then it seems unusual for ALL the companies to use the same holding tank for the very reason that presumably they wouldn't have control over the replenishment of it.
If they do then I can understand why there would only be one de-icing storage tank for everyone, if they don't then it seems unusual for ALL the companies to use the same holding tank for the very reason that presumably they wouldn't have control over the replenishment of it.
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Regarding the so-called 'bungling' at MAN on Boxing Day - let's introduce a few facts here - I know because I was on duty.
Firstly - it is the airlines/handling agents responsibility to de-ice aircraft, not the airport's. The airport only provides a site for de-icing tanks, not the tanks or the chemical - that is up to the handling agents to decide how much to stock and to buy it in.
Secondly - in a typical winter scenario which we experienced that night - snow falls, you brush it and it melts, turns to water (hundreds of thousands of gallons) and then promptly freezes. Unlike the highways who can throw unlimited amounts of very cheap and very effective rock salt around, we have to use very expensive glycol-based chemicals which are not very effective on ice. This is all we are allowed to use under CAA/ICAO rules. Why didn't we put it down before the freeze? - we did but much of it washes straight down the drains! And the dilution factor is enormous.
We were operating single-runway and closed 24R for 20 minutes to brush snow. During the night we applied two coatings of de-icer. The runway and taxiways were kept fully servicable and there were almost no delays due to airfield conditions. Sure there were some icy patches in the morning - a few tugs had trouble pushing aircraft back which is why we had a rapid response team out there going to the aid of such incidents with 'prills'.
Can you really expect to have snow and sub-zero temperatures and experience NO effects? You know what happens to the railways every time it snows. I think we did pretty well, myself.
Firstly - it is the airlines/handling agents responsibility to de-ice aircraft, not the airport's. The airport only provides a site for de-icing tanks, not the tanks or the chemical - that is up to the handling agents to decide how much to stock and to buy it in.
Secondly - in a typical winter scenario which we experienced that night - snow falls, you brush it and it melts, turns to water (hundreds of thousands of gallons) and then promptly freezes. Unlike the highways who can throw unlimited amounts of very cheap and very effective rock salt around, we have to use very expensive glycol-based chemicals which are not very effective on ice. This is all we are allowed to use under CAA/ICAO rules. Why didn't we put it down before the freeze? - we did but much of it washes straight down the drains! And the dilution factor is enormous.
We were operating single-runway and closed 24R for 20 minutes to brush snow. During the night we applied two coatings of de-icer. The runway and taxiways were kept fully servicable and there were almost no delays due to airfield conditions. Sure there were some icy patches in the morning - a few tugs had trouble pushing aircraft back which is why we had a rapid response team out there going to the aid of such incidents with 'prills'.
Can you really expect to have snow and sub-zero temperatures and experience NO effects? You know what happens to the railways every time it snows. I think we did pretty well, myself.
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surely not
sorry cant answer that question. seems a daft idea that they all draw from once source. what happens if it breaks down, were is the backup plan.(seems to have failed on boxing day ).
As for sweeping the runway and taxiways cant fault them.
Its just a shame about the stands. there quite happy for the workforce to work in these dangerous conditions.
I always thought they had a legal obligation to look after the workforce. Must be wrong.
So say's the slug ...............
Roverman
The icy patches that you talk about Differ from the sheets of ice that i saw around the bays. perhaps the workers that kept falling down must have imagined it.
I think not.
sorry cant answer that question. seems a daft idea that they all draw from once source. what happens if it breaks down, were is the backup plan.(seems to have failed on boxing day ).
As for sweeping the runway and taxiways cant fault them.
Its just a shame about the stands. there quite happy for the workforce to work in these dangerous conditions.
I always thought they had a legal obligation to look after the workforce. Must be wrong.
So say's the slug ...............
Roverman
The icy patches that you talk about Differ from the sheets of ice that i saw around the bays. perhaps the workers that kept falling down must have imagined it.
I think not.
Last edited by master slug; 28th Dec 2004 at 22:07.
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Hi,
I work at LHR, and if you think MAN is bad, try taking a look 'down south!!'
Last year we had snowfall, followed by a drop in temp (below freezing) and I have never witnessed such chaotic goings on!
Granted, the dip in temp didn't help, but the airline I work for had all three flights cancelled. There was no co-ordination from the airport operator (BAA) or the handling agents.
Certain airlines were getting priority over others, even though they were scheduled to depart after them. Backhanders spring to mind!!
The airport never once issued a Runway State Message. Many crew were asking for the braking action, as well as the depth of the deposit, but non was given. (How Heathrow EVER wins any sort of award is beyond me.)
Why don't the BAA invest in some sort of proper system, or divise a plan where the handling agents de-icing rigs are positioned in the holding areas. This way, aircraft can depart in the correct order regardless of the de-icing rig problem. They can simply be sprayed remotely.
This I find is just typical of Heathrow. They can spend millions on retail establishments, but when it comes down to the basics of actually running the airport, they have no idea. They can't even keep the apron clean of rubbish!!
Anyway, enough ranting from me.
Regards
I work at LHR, and if you think MAN is bad, try taking a look 'down south!!'
Last year we had snowfall, followed by a drop in temp (below freezing) and I have never witnessed such chaotic goings on!
Granted, the dip in temp didn't help, but the airline I work for had all three flights cancelled. There was no co-ordination from the airport operator (BAA) or the handling agents.
Certain airlines were getting priority over others, even though they were scheduled to depart after them. Backhanders spring to mind!!
The airport never once issued a Runway State Message. Many crew were asking for the braking action, as well as the depth of the deposit, but non was given. (How Heathrow EVER wins any sort of award is beyond me.)
Why don't the BAA invest in some sort of proper system, or divise a plan where the handling agents de-icing rigs are positioned in the holding areas. This way, aircraft can depart in the correct order regardless of the de-icing rig problem. They can simply be sprayed remotely.
This I find is just typical of Heathrow. They can spend millions on retail establishments, but when it comes down to the basics of actually running the airport, they have no idea. They can't even keep the apron clean of rubbish!!
Anyway, enough ranting from me.
Regards
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BA and BACX aircraft are de/anticed by BA mainline ground staff using BA equipment and BA deicing fluid .However , the mixing plant at gate 200 on T2 developed a fault so an engineer was despatched from London to fix it .The engineer made it all the way to Manchester but, apparently , his tools never made it on to the Shuttle.
