Doncaster/Finningley (Merged)

[Leodis]

Ryanair @ DSA

terrywilcox: you can take it as a fact that 4 Ryanair a/c will be based at dsa next year

It will come as no suprise if Ryanair decide to make DSA a major North of England base. From their point of view it will kill 3 birds with one stone. Easyjet @ NEMA, Thonsonfly @ DSA and Jet2 @ LBA.

As predicted in my posts over the last 2 years prior to the opening of DSA, it is becoming more apparent that DSA will only be a LOCO and HOLIDAY CHARTER airport for many years to come.

The introduction of extra Ryanair flights will not pay for the up keep of the airport. If Ryanair are to do to DSA what they have done to Stansted, they'll not be paying anything for landing fees. Peel will make nothing unless they are relying on retail income alone.

Questions that need to be asked are:

Where are the promised LONG HALL SCHEDULES
Where are the promised FULL SERVICE EUROPEAN SCHEDULES
Where are the promised FULL SERVICE DOMESTIC SCHEDULES

DSA will continue to do well on a regional level, I fully expect DSA to pick up a reasonable level of fraight traffic and continue to increase on its LOCO market, but the management have had their heads in the clouds with their other promises. Other suggestions that the new A380 will be using the airport are quite ridiculous, yes the airports runway could quite possibly handle the aircraft, but the terminal couldn't cope with such passenger loads.

The opening of a MAJOR base at DSA by Ryanair will frighten off any wouldbe FULL SERVICE operator and this is what I believe will happen at DSA.

Time will tell?

[gary4444]

Leodis, the airport only stated that the runway could handle the A380, no-one ever said it Would use the airport.

Unless I'm missing something they haven't promised any scheduled carriers, the Airport Manager has stated that they expect to have a scheduled airline such as BA in within two years.

They did promised long haul flights and they will be on offer to Cancun, Sanford and Puerto Plata next summer, it was never stated that they would be scheduled.

As far as full service scheduled flights go I expect a few airlines will offer them in a couple of years time, remember the airport has only been open since April!

[MrDearne]

Mr Leodis

Wow.......I hope for the sake of your sanity DSA doesn't exceed expectations.........
You seem to have a bit of an issue with DSA.

For a fledging airport I would have thought DSA is doing extremely well. Maybe in two or three years time criticism aimed at DSA would be more practical if expectations were not fulfilled, but after only three month I can't see how anyone can criticise the development and growth of DSA, which by and large is very positive.
I am sure there is a degree of envy from other local airport supporters but it's only natural. I dare say if LBIA or HUY procured the long haul flights RHA has got, DSA supporters would be envious too.
In my opinion, in the next 5-10 years DSA will grow to become Yorkshire's number 1 airport, I don't think there is any doubt about that. I can't really see the A380 operating much outside of Heathrow, Gatwick and Manchester, but I wouldn't bet against a 'main player' in the schedule service sector operating out of DSA.

But as they say...only time will tell and we're all entitled to our views.

[AndyHUY]

I can't really see the A380 operating much outside of Heathrow, Gatwick and Manchester, but I wouldn't bet against a 'main player' in the schedule service sector operating out of DSA.

You say 'main player' does that mean BA? If so i just cant see it! They have given up just about all of their regional services in favor of BHX, MAN, LGW and LHR!

If you mean main player in terms of Lo-Co then it will be FR that stitches up the rest of the low cost market at DSA!

The one thing i dont understand is why, if NEMA has a big enough runway, has there been no scheduled long haul routes from there?

I think in that respect peel are being a bit naive, maybe in the next ten years DSA may get a New York service but i cant see anything major happening as far as long-haul! If there was the demand for long haul from Yorkshire would LBA have extended their runway by now?

[HOODED]

Andy, LBA is 2250m long enough. Bristol has a CO 757 flight to New York direct from it's 2011m runway. LBA has had direct flights to Toronto in the past and that includes a 747 on the day the extension opened. Weather and local terrain make direct to East coast not always possible but I believe a 300m starter extension has been discussed to counter this.

DSA may become Yorkshires No1 but I would doubt it if the LBA bosses wake up and invest in the place as it's far better positioned than DSA for conurbations and is more central within Yorkshire. Lets not forget Leeds is rapidly becoming a very important city for commerce and has an Airport on it's doorstep. Whist DSA has far better transport links LBA could and should do more to resolve its's weaknesses here.

Time will tell but I wish all 3 Airports well. HUY will have it's part to play too.

[7006 fan]

At the risk of being accused of DSA/DCS bashing again, (I am not, honest. I hope we are all over that phase now) I think that this is the likely outcome, Doncaster Sheffield will follow a Lo-co Charter model. It has advantages and disadvantages, not going to enter into them here and have recommended a book on the subject in another thread. But similar business models are in every town:
Waitrose, Sainsbury, Tesco, Aldi, Netto, Kwiksave all do well in the market they serve from the 'stack high sell low' to 'stack low sell high' consumer choice. Value beans or Heinz beans, the choice is yours, both are edible but one has more beans than sauce.
Hope this does not upset anyone (apart from the manufacturers of wet beans of course )

[MrDearne]

I think in that respect peel are being a bit naive

It's all about opinions. I think the last thing you can say about Peel is being naive. I know a couple of guys who have had dealings with them in the North West and one here in Yorkshire, and Peel, by all accounts, are extremely ruthless. They seem to do what they want to do.
I don’t think most DSA supporters are even aware of the magnitude with regards to the airport and business park. Peel stand to make a lot of money from letting fees and ground rent on the back of £84 million of public sector funding.
Northern Way, which is by and large the official blue print of future developments in the north of England……and is very pro West Yorkshire and Manchester (M62 corridor) to the detriment of South Yorkshire and Humberside, sees a very active role for DSA.

The opening of Robin Hood Doncaster-Sheffield Airport in April 2005 constituted a step
change in the city (Sheffield) region's asset base and economic potential. It could be linked with
Manchester in a Heathrow-Gatwick type relationship as demand for travel in the Sheffield-
Leeds-Manchester triangle builds and inter-city transport connections are upgraded.

I think it’s all about the wider picture Andy. I am willing to bet on these boards in the future we will see a barrage of complaints from LBA, HUY and NEMA supporters regarding governmental bias towards DSA. I don’t think anyone can say with a degree of accuracy what lies in store for DSA. One thing I do know, if it’s anything to go by, is that planning applications for two hotels on the site has been submitted and are likely to be granted.

At the risk of being accused of DSA/DCS bashing again, (I am not, honest. I hope we are all over that phase now) I think that this is the likely outcome, Doncaster Sheffield will follow a Lo-co Charter model. It has advantages and disadvantages, not going to enter into them here and have recommended a book on the subject in another thread. But similar business models are in every town:

Absolutely agree with you 110%. It\'s no use trying to sell expensive long haul flights if the average wage is say £200. However, economies are dynamic and even here in the Dearne Valley (which anyone will tell you was probably the most deprived area in the country) hundreds of luxury houses to the tune of £250k- £300k are being built and sold. Money is filtering its way through to the lower reaches...............mind you I am not seeing any of it

[7006 fan]

Mr Dearne,
Regrettably that is the case, rich 'stockies' buying up places without a toss for the locals ergo Cornwall etc, at least some property remains available for the proles!
N Lincs suffers the same, the average wage seems to be about £12,000 (looking at the ad's) yet a 3 bedder is c.£120K, even with two workers at £12k and 3 times it doesn't work. (Ohh the sky has just gone a horrible shade of muddy pink -visual observation of tonight's sunset)
No idea how the poor "sob's" down South afford it, last time I looked a 3 bedder was £200k+ in the naff areas!
You are right about Peel tough property people but one has to be in that business. I see 'nasty nick' (Van Hoogstrat) is due before the 'beak' again for allegedly arranging the assassination of Raja. Scary stuff (the guy admitted chucking grenades into tenant's houses or something!!!!!)
At least the property market in SYorks/N Lincs ain't that bad yet!!

[airhumberside]

A lot of people are speculating as to what services DSA will get in the next few years. Here is what I think DSA will have by the end of the decade

Scheduled Low Cost

Thomson Fly - base
Ryanair - base
Easyjet - base (keeping of Ryanair routes)
Flybe - Small base, domestic services only (they seem not to be coming to HUY now). I doubt FR/EZY or TOM would fly to EDI, GLA, Belfast
A German or Easern European carrier operating 3/4 times a week from their bases. Probably avoiding any route operated to TOM/FR/EZY - bit of a niche perating like Wizz at LPL

Scheduled Not Low Cost

AA or CO to New York - although LBA could handle such a service, DSA's longer runway maybe an advantage in bad weather and if any service is upgraded to a B767/787

Charter

Thomson - large range of short haul routes (similar to EMA, NCL) plus key long haul routes
Balkan Holidays - as now
My Travel and Thomas Cook - as now, may be the odd extra destination, probably shared with Thomson
First Choice - probably similar to My Travel and Thomas Cook, to keep up with their main rivals
Various Cruise and special departure (Transun, Newmarket) flights

Opinions welcome

[Get me some traffic]

Leodis,
I do not think that DCS is in the North of England!!! I would say it is in the Midlands.
If you drive North from London on the A1 (Great North Road) all the signs say to the North until you reach Scotch Corner. Therefore, the first airport in the North of England is Teesside (DTVA).

[airhumberside]

Using government boundaries, DSA is in 'The Northern Way' scheme area so is in Northern England. Also its regions is not called the East Midlands or West Midlands but Yorkshire and the Humber

[MrDearne]

7006fan

Ironic isn't it. A place like South Yorkshire whose character and soul was founded on flat caps, whippets, miners, John Smith’s beer and terraced houses......is the image they are now trying to disassociate with in favour of attracting outsiders. Much, I am sure, can be said of Scunny and Brigg.

Using government boundaries, DSA is in \'The Northern Way\' scheme area so is in Northern England. Also its regions is not called the East Midlands or West Midlands but Yorkshire and the Humber

Yes. Doncaster is seen as the gateway to Yorkshire and Humber, and the North East.
However, under the Northern Way initiative, the South Yorkshire region also encompasses North Nottinghamsire (Bassetlaw), and North Derbyshire (Chesterfield and Derbyshire Dales).

[airhumberside]

I do not think that DCS is in the North of England!!! I would say it is in the Midlands.

Yes. Doncaster is seen as the gateway to Yorkshire and Humber, and the North East.
However, under the Northern Way initiative, the South Yorkshire region also encompasses North Nottinghamsire (Bassetlaw), and North Derbyshire (Chesterfield and Derbyshire Dales

Perhaps the Northern Way was not the best example to use, but DSA is definetly in the North, not the Midlands

[7006 fan]

A-H,
I think you are stretching the imagination a bit with a New York scheduled flag carrier, as much as it would be nice for the east coast it would be highly unlikely (viz LGW against LHR), however agree with the other route sentiments.

As to the North/South thing it is an interesting thought, where does 'THE NORTH' begin. Some say it is as soon as the accent changes, so to Southerner's in Sussex, Bedford is OOP NOR'.
Methinks, where does the 'Brummie' accent die and the 'Ayuplike' begin, maybe anything north of the A50 is a possible demarcation line. No doubt it all goes back to Henry and Richard!

[lbalad]

I flew from DSA for the first time last week.I was suprised to find that checkin was done manually,not a computer in sight!.Anyone know the reason for this?.I flew out late saturday night,there was the flight I was on to Gerona,and a delayed flight to Malaga.Whilst the lounge was not overcrowded,it would be interesting to see what it would be like with more aircraft leaving at the same time.With the planned introduction of bigger aircraft for long haul routes,and general increase in flights next year,I think the airport should start thinking about expanding the terminal now.

[symphonyangel]

Leondis
__________________________________________________
Questions that need to be asked are:

Where are the promised LONG HALL SCHEDULES
Where are the promised FULL SERVICE EUROPEAN SCHEDULES
Where are the promised FULL SERVICE DOMESTIC SCHEDULES
__________________________________________________

I recall from the public inquiry Peel produced a letter of support from Cancun Airport in Mexico and were laughed at by the opposing airports. A year later and there is a flight to Cancun in the programme for Summer 06, so who is laughing now? Also flights to 3 other long haul destinations by 2014 was the 'promise' at the inquiry - they have also links to Orlando and the Dominican Republic as well as Egypt for 2006 so that answers the first question.

Re the second, given on-time performance and reliability are the most important factors for scheduled traffic, (businesses don't care so much for free newspapers and a curtain anymore) - full service is not as relevant as it once was. Company Barclaycard say 71% of CEO's use low cost for business, prooves the point.

Re domestic, i can't recall Peel ever saying that one, can you say where that was quoted?

[charterguy]

I don't know why some of you guys are slagging DSA. The airport will be a monster in a few years. Punters this side of the Pennines do not like to travel to MAN. The M62 can be a real pig at times. The only downside for the airport is the arrival of Ryanair. It turns a potential world class airport into a cheap and nasty bus terminal. What with oil running out we ought to stop offering air travel to people who cannot really afford it. The oil shortages in the foreseable future will put paid to the loco model.
DSA can either handle a million pax at a quid a time and P1ss of the real carriers, or opt to deal with full service scheduled and charter airlines and handle 300,000 pax at 10 quid a time. Just do the maths !

I donned my asbestos suit, so bring on the flames !!

CG

[onion]

Mr Dearne Doncaster is definatley not seen as the gateway to the North East. I should know. I'm from the North East and if any town has the right to claim that title is definatley not doncaster. The North East actually starts on the North Side of the river Tees so all those in Middlesborough are actually from Yorkshire, which insidentily is the county where I live and am proud of it. Im also proud of the fact that I was born in County Durham and therefore the North East. It is true that the North according to the road signs actually starts at Scotch Corner. Doncaster on the other hand is south of the Humber and so I think in the Midlands.
Yorkshire is a county where as the Midlands is a region and there can be overlapping in this. Yorkshire and the Humber may be classed as a region but you try explaining to the people of North Yorkshire, especially those around Swaledale and the very north of North Yorkshire why they see little if any of the funds that are currently being pumped into the so called Yorkshire and Humber region. Really North Yorkshire is big enough to be classed as a region all on it's own. To me anyone south of the Humber is a midlander/southerner. Anyone trying to claim they are northerners from south of the Humber are imposters trying to make themselves sound ard. Although Yorkshireman are a breed apart, salt of the earth.
Airhumberside if the goverment boundaries are what you are going by why isn't MME, Darlington. MIddlesborogh, Richmond, Newcastle, Sunderland etc in the Northern Way Scheme? Alot further North than DSA. I'm sorry your argument is floored just calling something Northern doesn't automatically make it Northern.
By the way if people from Northern Scotland get involved in this argument we are all screwed

[RAFAT]

The only downside for the airport is the arrival of Ryanair. It turns a potential world class airport into a cheap and nasty bus terminal.

Couldn't agree more, my heart sunk when I heard that they were to operate from Finningley, and it's now even more depressing that they're actually going to base aircraft there.

[7006 fan]

Symphonyangel,
I think Cancun, Egypt and Dominican Republic are charter flights rather than scheduled, albeit long-haul.
Don't want to start another spatt here.
love the North/South argument.
It does seem that the Northern Way has lost it's... Seems the Government consider the 'North' to start and finish at the M62. So where do Blair and Brown live, maybe they want to move Hadrian's wall southwards!!!