LEEDS

[terrywilcox]

leeds expansion

Leodis,I don't remember any LBA bashing on the DSA thread,but I will go back and check.
Just two things of relevance to your appraisal of the airports.
1. Finningley has NEVER EVER been shut for weather in all its existence since 1936.
2. I don't know what you mean by "small". The original site is almost 900 acres,and has been added to by later purchases. If you mean pax. THE FORECAST FOR THE FIRST YEAR IS CLOSE TO ONE MILLION.

As you say,good luck to all the Yorkshire airports

[Leodis]

Terrywilcox

Small meaning the terminal and apron facilities not the available area for development and in the same respect Leeds is still a small airport.

DSA thread posters please read the Leeds Expansion 2 opening thread. Thank you.

[MikeeB]

A public consultation has already started with the Leeds Highways Department and copies are available on the LCC website, so please take a look and post back here what you think.

Will do

I'm suprised nobody picked up on the fact that if your late for a flight and get a little heavy with the right foot, you could come home to find your banned from driving.

Humberside is a bit of a mare for me too. I live in Howden, so if I choose to get there quick, I need to pay to cross the bridge. The M62/18/180 route adds to the time yet again.

I've not seen/found the best route to DSA yet, although the old RAF Finningley signs were still up on the A1/614 the other week.

[The Desert Ferret]

Surface Access to LBA

Happy New Year Folks,

I'm fascinated by the surface access to LBA debate.

Observers are absolutely correct that surface access to LBA is poor compared with other airports.

Observers also appear (and I suspect they are correct) that it is the IT and leisure market that is underperfomring at LBA.
The business market appears to be performing well.

Now, the surface access issue tends to impact most on business travellers, not IT travellers.

My rationale is that road access is only an issue during peak times - that is 0700-0900 and 1630-1800. Assuming one hour check in this means 0800-1000 and 1730-1900. Most IT and leisure flights operate outside of these windows. Wherefore then is the argument that surface access is the cause of IT and leisure under-performance?

I suspect the gentleman/lady who talked about £s is probably closer to the real issue. I defer to those better in the know on that area.

Cheers all.

DF

PS: Those speed cameras between Rawdon and Horsforth are a surprise - I've driven up there heaps of times and it never occured to me that folk ever abused it speed-wise nor was it a traffic black-spot.

Hey ho!

Oops!

Before anybody shoots me down of course I got the time windows wrong by two hours (I moved in the wrong direction). Sorry folks - as a penance I will shove my head in a bucket of halibut whilst singing "God Save the Queen."

However, I hope my argument is still valid and will be interested to read responses.

Getting inside the heads of punters when they make their decisions is at the heart of business success.

DF

[terrywilcox]

leeds expansion 2

Leodis. I take it from your message that DSA thread people should keep off the LBA thread. You obviously visit the DSA thread )on which there is NO LBA bashing). I only entered a message on YOUR thread to correct an inaccuracy.

[POL1W]

Finningley has NEVER EVER been shut for weather in all its existence since 1936.

Terrywilcox - You can not make bold statements like this. I for one diverted from Finningley in a Dominie, to Leeds, Binbrook, Manchester, Cranwell and Waddington over a period of 12 years due to fog, snow and crosswinds! As did many others.
Sorry this is on the Leeds thread, and not DSA.

[terrywilcox]

leeds expansion

I appear to be wrong POL1. I am surprised because this so called fact was given in evidence at the public inquiry,and was not rebutted. I apologise,but please understand why I felt free to say it. Incidentally did you know a Mary Wilcox while you wre at Finningley. She worked there for 18 years,until the end.

[Leodis]

All said and done?

Terrywilcox.... that is exactly the point. There is no threadbashing of DSA on its thread by people who post on the LBA thread. As I said, every airport has is downsides and by no means will DSA be perfect.

So now that's all settled can we get on at supporting both our Yorkshire airports?

Yorkshire airports future? Here are my predictions....2010

LBA......2010??

*LBA will attract new scheduled services to Toronto, New York, Washington,
and at least one destination in the Middle East.
*At least one tour operator will operate services to Orlando
*New arrangements will be put in place to improve landing and takeoff distances.
*Under a new private operator, the terminal facilities will be improved. New biuldings consisting of a new terminal and multistory carpark will be constructed.
*A new link road from the Leeds Outer Ring Road will be in the final planning stages, construction to begin after 2010.
*Airlines such as JET2, BMI will still operate to all the major European destinations from LBA.
*By 2010 the yearly passenger totals will reach at least 4.5 million

DSA......2010??

*DSA will attract additional services in the Loco sector, at least one major Loco airline will make DSA a major base.
*New longhall charter services will operate to various places.
*Additional terminal development will be required facilitate demand.
*DSA will still find it hard to attract Full Service operators, but a number of connecting flights will operate to Hub airports like Amsterdam.
*By 2010 the yearly passenger totals will reach at least 2.5 million

What do you think?

[GrahamK]

I would switch what you said about LBA to DSA and what you said about DSA to LBA, plus or minus a few points

[INKJET]

Graham K

An iffy days skiing, but hey good ale

Now i have to agree with Graham K

I just don't see LBA doing long haul (USA middle east) can you see any operator wanting to fly for 8 hours and then asking the crews to land at Leeds in the weather that being reported/forcast this week?

I can see lots of LoCo out of Donny, but not much `frills` stuff

My forcast for Leeds for 05

Still some growth, but less than 10-12% net with a loss of IT traffic to Donny, probably 20% from Jet2/flybe, bmi +/- 5% with them dropping Cork for the Summer or at latest the winter program, the ATR still doing city until the fall

At last an Airbus on LHR

09/27 will close in a matter of weeks, new remote stands

Eastern will pull off Southampton after flybe start

More routes for flybe

Jet2 will pull off CDG due lack of slots, but start EDI twice daily

Major investment at Leeds will include a new bus (airside) more public transport (landside) that no one uses, a hike in car park charges ( its too easy to resist for the management, and they don't pay for parking!!)

Ryanair will put an 800 into Leeds at last

Sadly i also expect to see a major incident at Leeds, now too much traffic with Leeds wild weather and some guys are pushing it a bit too much IMHO

Clear night -11c and no wind so hoefully a full day on the piste
TTFN

Burt

[flybe.com]

POL1W - You are indeed correct. Was there '86 - '91, (love the Dom! ) and although rare, early stacks did occur due to lo (or no) vis. However, whether it was by luck or judgement, the RAF did choose an excellent climatic location at Finningley, it seems to have its own little microclimate, with very little bad weather when all around is blowing a gale and persisting it down.

Like Inkjet I generally have to agree with GrahamK. With regard to Stateside services, (and Terry W will know more detail about this than I do) representatives from several US carriers have visited Finningley with a view to switching from MAN and making it their 'Gateway to the North.'

With regard to LBA, I was based there '97 - '01, and still operate in and out of there regularly, and the deterioration in the condition of the runway in the last couple of years is something which must be addressed. However, tis Management, not Pilots, which decide where to operate in and out of, so I'm sure this wouldn't be a factor for any Operators deciding whether or not to set up camp there. Also, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread, access is truly awful.

[Going loco]

Perhaps by 2010 we can hope to have had at least one LBA related Pprune thread without the usual half-baked, Nostradamous-esque predictions of impending doom. In my, now considerable lifetime, “experts” have been predicting that LBA is ‘wrong’; ‘wrong’ place, ‘wrong’ weather, ‘wrong’ runway etc. But consistently we have seen that when services are offered, people use them, and use them to the same degree as services from many other supposed bigger and better facilities. The volumetric data produced by the CAA doesn’t offer much of an insight because it doesn’t disaggregate route data by airline, but there are a few routes where you have daily B737 services and comparisons can be made. E.g. in November,


Barcelona
BRS 7496
LBA 7484
NCL 7125
BFS 6436

Prague
BRS 7451
LBA 7422
NCL 6946
BFS 6724

Malaga
LBA 7789
NCL 6880

Now, forgive me if I’m wrong, but passengers wanting to go to Prague have the choice of 2 x daily from EMA, up to 3 x daily from MAN, a few a week from MME and so people who don’t wish to employ a team of sherpas and donkeys to help them navigate the last few miles of mountain trekking required to reach LBA have many alternative options.

If LBA can perform at this level now, just think of the potential when improvements to the road links, the low-viz syetms and the declared distances are put in.

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Quite why any US airline would want to up and move a successful operation from Manchester to an untried airport I cannot see
Many of the pax are onward to either domestic or international points in Europe
with full service airlines which Finningley
will never have


G-I-B

[pwalhx]

I agree with G-I-B re transatlantic and Donny.

Look at the airlines CO is spreading it's wings to many airports so yes it may look at DSA but in addition to not at the expence of MAN

AA is in Oneworld with BA so uses the BA connection of which there are none at DSA

DL is very succesful on ATL ex MAN why move

US who knows what will happen to them

But I guess we will see.

[airhumberside]

EDI/GLA

Do you think BE would consider services to EDI and/or GLA competing with bmi

[terrywilcox]

leeds expansion

going loco

I think you put LBA situation in a nutshell. I have never flown from there,but I have taken a paassenger there many times in the past,to catch a Dublin flight (the bus). Difficulty I had was the last miles of winding roads and various junctions. You really had to know your way. I found the airport itself great,@cosy@ I think is the appropriate word.

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence about the weather conditions and the runway,but I just don't know whether this is exagerrated.

Good luck to LBA,in spite of the fact that the management tried hard to stop the development of Finningley. I had the pleasure of cross examining Timothy Kirkhope,of Leeds (MEP),at the public inquiry,and giving him a hard time. I had to remind him that he was representing Doncaster as well as Leeds. Have to admit that I owed him one as an ex miner.

[Leodis]

Terrywilcox

If I remember rightly Timothy Kirkhope MEP did not back LBAs attempt to gain 24 hour flying either, so does he really know anything about the airline world!

Why I think Leeds is more likely to attract services across the pond is down to the fact that airlines are proven to not touch airports without a track record.

The big main players have only just started to look at airports like Birmingham in recent years. A UK airport must handle at least 3 million passengers before the big players will even look at an airport.

Many factors will be included into whether or not to operate from an airport and yes transport links will be considered. The final overriding factor will be bums on seats over road links. LBA has a proven track record at getting bums on seats. Airlines are business' and it makes no difference whether an airport looks pretty or not. If the airport can fill the seats, that pays the wages.

[terrywilcox]

leeds expansion

"leodis" Timothy Kirkhope is a pilot,although I guess this does not necessarily make him an expert on airlines or aviation.

[Leodis]

Terrywilcox

Please check your PMs

[DC10FAN]

Regards potential transatlantic flights from DSA, I expect one major carrier(probably Continental) to launch flights in 2005/6. This would not replace but be in addition to their MAN-EWR service. (Like the new EDI service supplements GLA-EWR)
IMO most passengers using the Manchester flights start there journey there and connect at the US hub hence why Continental and US a/w carry more passengers on bigger a/c than the BA service to JFK.