LEEDS
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Inkjet Re Jet2 LBA-CDG
From the numbers I've seen this route is performing better than LBA-BFS and on a par with LBA-AMS per return flight. With better slots for a twice daily service it would probably exceed LBA-AMS.
I think problem lies with the number of available aircraft for the peak period next summer. Jet2 now requires 7 based aircraft at MAN, not the 6 originally stated, due to the announcement of the MAN-AMS flight.
The maximum aircraft requirement at LBA occurs on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Fridays in the late morning. Dropping one route would reduce the number of aircraft required at LBA for the whole week by 1. When aircraft utilisation is this tight that 1 is the key. That time of the day at LBA sees a big raft of Med flights plus CDG. The loads on the Med flights are higher than CDG so that makes it the logical one to go.
Of course if Jet2 could source more aircraft before next summer or obtain double daily slots at CDG the problem goes away.
It would be a shame to see CDG dropped as this is a route where LBA has had a huge capacity shortfall compared to other airport in the surrounding regions.
I agree about EDI. Any short flight that can be run as a double daily, morning and evening, fits into the scheme of available aircraft. Could get busy if bmi push the boat out too. How does the A319 fit into the scheme? An EDI-LBA-EDI rotation?
DLH? Would be nice. FRA or MUC?
PTH
From the numbers I've seen this route is performing better than LBA-BFS and on a par with LBA-AMS per return flight. With better slots for a twice daily service it would probably exceed LBA-AMS.
I think problem lies with the number of available aircraft for the peak period next summer. Jet2 now requires 7 based aircraft at MAN, not the 6 originally stated, due to the announcement of the MAN-AMS flight.
The maximum aircraft requirement at LBA occurs on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Fridays in the late morning. Dropping one route would reduce the number of aircraft required at LBA for the whole week by 1. When aircraft utilisation is this tight that 1 is the key. That time of the day at LBA sees a big raft of Med flights plus CDG. The loads on the Med flights are higher than CDG so that makes it the logical one to go.
Of course if Jet2 could source more aircraft before next summer or obtain double daily slots at CDG the problem goes away.
It would be a shame to see CDG dropped as this is a route where LBA has had a huge capacity shortfall compared to other airport in the surrounding regions.
I agree about EDI. Any short flight that can be run as a double daily, morning and evening, fits into the scheme of available aircraft. Could get busy if bmi push the boat out too. How does the A319 fit into the scheme? An EDI-LBA-EDI rotation?
DLH? Would be nice. FRA or MUC?
PTH
PTH,
The Monarch aircraft was indeed an A320 and was based at Leeds for the summer 1995 season, operating flights mainly on behalf of Thomson. I seem to remember this aeroplane was kept quite busy, doing at least two round trips a day. Air Europa
similarly kept their based B733 busy, flying on behalf of Airtours.
In ensuing years, both travel companies tended to keep most of their (gradually diminishing) flying programmes in-house.
I think we can reasonably expect Jet2 to keep on buying 737s. Lufthansa was the source for the last batch and their entire fleet of 737s is for sale so there should be plenty about. However, if there is any expansion from Leeds I don't expect it to be too groundbreaking as Manchester is currently project of the day. Edinburgh is a maybe as they're doing it from Manchester in the near future but they'd be up against pretty stiff competition from BMI at Leeds. Germany is the obvious glaring gap in the business market and if Lufthansa is showing an interest, Jet2 might want to have a look there.
A pair of Flybe D400s would be perfectly adequate for domestic routes such as Aberdeen, Southampton and Exeter but a larger and faster machine would definitely be preferable for any proposed French destinations. I am concerned that the 146 is getting a little long in the tooth, however, and I feel a 737 or something similar would be more suited to present a challenge to Jet2 et al.
So, let us recap. Jet2 and BMI (as usual), Flybe, Monarch and now Lufthansa. I would be chuffed if the first three gave their Leeds presence a kick and even more delighted to welcome Monarch and Lufthansa, not forgetting Air Southwest of course.
It's easy to get carried away but I can't help feeling this airport has finally started to arrive. Still a long way to go though.
The Monarch aircraft was indeed an A320 and was based at Leeds for the summer 1995 season, operating flights mainly on behalf of Thomson. I seem to remember this aeroplane was kept quite busy, doing at least two round trips a day. Air Europa
similarly kept their based B733 busy, flying on behalf of Airtours.
In ensuing years, both travel companies tended to keep most of their (gradually diminishing) flying programmes in-house.
I think we can reasonably expect Jet2 to keep on buying 737s. Lufthansa was the source for the last batch and their entire fleet of 737s is for sale so there should be plenty about. However, if there is any expansion from Leeds I don't expect it to be too groundbreaking as Manchester is currently project of the day. Edinburgh is a maybe as they're doing it from Manchester in the near future but they'd be up against pretty stiff competition from BMI at Leeds. Germany is the obvious glaring gap in the business market and if Lufthansa is showing an interest, Jet2 might want to have a look there.
A pair of Flybe D400s would be perfectly adequate for domestic routes such as Aberdeen, Southampton and Exeter but a larger and faster machine would definitely be preferable for any proposed French destinations. I am concerned that the 146 is getting a little long in the tooth, however, and I feel a 737 or something similar would be more suited to present a challenge to Jet2 et al.
So, let us recap. Jet2 and BMI (as usual), Flybe, Monarch and now Lufthansa. I would be chuffed if the first three gave their Leeds presence a kick and even more delighted to welcome Monarch and Lufthansa, not forgetting Air Southwest of course.
It's easy to get carried away but I can't help feeling this airport has finally started to arrive. Still a long way to go though.
Join Date: Apr 2004
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I flew on the Monarch A320 to Larnaca from LBA in September 1995, so I can definitly confirm it was at LBA (Was G-MONZ both ways).
Monarch, more routes from FlyBe,Jet2 and bmi and Lufthansa would be fantastic, fingers crossed!
Monarch, more routes from FlyBe,Jet2 and bmi and Lufthansa would be fantastic, fingers crossed!
Join Date: Dec 2004
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BMI LBA - LCY service
Folks,
Does anybody have a feel foe the current performance of the BMI ATR-42 service LCY - LBA?
I flew up north Tuesday afternoon (8 passengers, landed sideways) and back down south Wednesday afternoon (about 20 passengers). Those figures don't seem inspiring and I would be distraught if this service went the same way as the FlyBe service did.
Docklands is a terrific airport that is far more civilised and convenient than the big three. If BMI can hang on for another year LCY will connected to the Docklands Light Rail network (December 2005) that will make it even more attractive.
The only reservation about the service are the miniscule overhead lockers on the ATR which also seems to lack for suspension (or is the LBA runway that bad?).
Can anybody in the know reassure me that it is meeting expectations?
DF
Does anybody have a feel foe the current performance of the BMI ATR-42 service LCY - LBA?
I flew up north Tuesday afternoon (8 passengers, landed sideways) and back down south Wednesday afternoon (about 20 passengers). Those figures don't seem inspiring and I would be distraught if this service went the same way as the FlyBe service did.
Docklands is a terrific airport that is far more civilised and convenient than the big three. If BMI can hang on for another year LCY will connected to the Docklands Light Rail network (December 2005) that will make it even more attractive.
The only reservation about the service are the miniscule overhead lockers on the ATR which also seems to lack for suspension (or is the LBA runway that bad?).
Can anybody in the know reassure me that it is meeting expectations?
DF
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I flew South on the 10.30 am on Monday and North on the 3.25 pm. Wednesday.
11 people each way.
I also wondered how long the service would last. I agree with thr previous contributor LCY is very convenient and a nice airport. I would like to see the service carry on.
Must say I quite like the ATR.
11 people each way.
I also wondered how long the service would last. I agree with thr previous contributor LCY is very convenient and a nice airport. I would like to see the service carry on.
Must say I quite like the ATR.
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LCY LOADS
Overall bmi are said to be happy with the yield on this service at this stage of the route developement. It is now unlikely that the 135 will be on this route before the end of S05. In any event the ATR is much cheaper to operate than the ERJ so there is no rush to put the 135 on it. Bmi are now seeing LHR pax switching to LCY for connections to from FRA which helps yield and free's up space on the LHR service.
The new 135 (G-RJXL) should leave Brazil today, provided bmi bank transfer clears and be back in the UK on Sunday (the crew need some RR in the GC en route, poor Luv's)
This isn't fitted with the steep approach kit, but all 3 will be if they are happy with LCY return by next C check.
The ATR is leased until the end of March with an option for a further 6 months at least, the crews have been told to expect to spend next summer in Leeds.
And yes LBA runway really is that rough.
The next 145 (ex Eastern) will join the fleet as a dry lease in late Jan or early Febuary, also expect new 2 routes to be launched in January.
Cheers
Burt
The new 135 (G-RJXL) should leave Brazil today, provided bmi bank transfer clears and be back in the UK on Sunday (the crew need some RR in the GC en route, poor Luv's)
This isn't fitted with the steep approach kit, but all 3 will be if they are happy with LCY return by next C check.
The ATR is leased until the end of March with an option for a further 6 months at least, the crews have been told to expect to spend next summer in Leeds.
And yes LBA runway really is that rough.
The next 145 (ex Eastern) will join the fleet as a dry lease in late Jan or early Febuary, also expect new 2 routes to be launched in January.
Cheers
Burt
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Going by those timings on the outbound to Dalaman, take away the 2 hrs time difference and that flight is 5 hours?!?! Bit long isnt it, or does it operate via Somewhere else?
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Moved back to enemy territory... Leeds!!
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Briefly back in the UK pre christmas and met a friend at the George and Dragon at Apperley Bridge. We had the misfortune to be sat near to four airport employees who "entertained" us all night with their foul mouthed stories of how they manage to rip the airport off at every available opportunity including robbing the staff canteen store room on a nightly basis. If you're reading this lads (might be a bit of a leap of imagination there!!), thanks again for a very enlightening evening and I'll wish you all the best for another year of scamming West Yorkshire's ratepayers and travellers.
Froeliches weinachten.
Froeliches weinachten.
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Frank furt kowbouy
Won't be fleecing them for much longer!! with LBA pax figs at 2.5m+ they are required by law to put services such as baggage handling out to tender, guess who will be cheaper? council employee's or sreviceair/aviance lackies? theys guys are treat like slaves and paid min wages but do the job with smile most days and by and large do it well.
INKJET
I'm not sure what the legal position is regarding putting baggage services out to tender. I used to work as an LBA baggage handler until quite recently and this topic was discussed in the baggage hall quite frequently. My understanding was that the airport had an option (with whom I don't know) to put out a tender but that's all it was, not a legal obligation. Sorry if that sounds like contradictory mumbo jumbo, I'm still a bit hung over from last night's wine and brandy.
Can you give us a clue as to the new BMI routes for January ?
Can't see BMI doing these, but Stansted and /or Norwich might be worth a crack for Eastern. There is a civil service outpost in Leeds whose main office is in Norwich and there is frequent staff travel between the two sites. Norwich isn't the easiest or quickest place to reach by virtue of its geographical location. To get there from Leeds means a five hour car journey, a two change train journey or trogging over the Pennines to catch the Eastern flight from Manchester. It might be possible to sustain a two rotation per day LBA-STN-NWI with a Jetstream 32. A -41 might be on the large side to begin with.
I'm not sure what the legal position is regarding putting baggage services out to tender. I used to work as an LBA baggage handler until quite recently and this topic was discussed in the baggage hall quite frequently. My understanding was that the airport had an option (with whom I don't know) to put out a tender but that's all it was, not a legal obligation. Sorry if that sounds like contradictory mumbo jumbo, I'm still a bit hung over from last night's wine and brandy.
Can you give us a clue as to the new BMI routes for January ?
Can't see BMI doing these, but Stansted and /or Norwich might be worth a crack for Eastern. There is a civil service outpost in Leeds whose main office is in Norwich and there is frequent staff travel between the two sites. Norwich isn't the easiest or quickest place to reach by virtue of its geographical location. To get there from Leeds means a five hour car journey, a two change train journey or trogging over the Pennines to catch the Eastern flight from Manchester. It might be possible to sustain a two rotation per day LBA-STN-NWI with a Jetstream 32. A -41 might be on the large side to begin with.
Last edited by Mooncrest; 18th Dec 2004 at 10:06.
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Mooncrest
Sorry i don't know where the new routes will be to, not sure at all about Leeds, could be Manchester or Edinburgh, there have been so many routes mooted of late its difficult to tell the wheat from the chaff
Cheers
Burt
Cheers
Burt
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I think there is government legislation which states that once an airport handles more than 2 million passengers (not quite sure about the exact figure) then certain parts of the business have to be offerred out to tender. To me it makes sense, less cost to the airport, less overheads, less staff, less administration. There are also other parts of the company which can be contracted out such as the IT department and Air Traffic Control. I am sad to say it makes sense but in todays business world it's the way it is done. Fortunately LBA management do not have business sense and jobs will be safe for a while. But it will happen and I will bet on it. Just like they once said that Ski flights were not what LBA wanted, and the time they said that Low cost operator is not what they wanted. Typical council airport, reactive not proactive.
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I personally believe that EDI and GLA services by LS from LBA would be extremely popular. In these days of affordable air travel, the fares BMIR charge on LBA-EDI/GLA are nothing short of daylight robbery, particularly if a day return is required. The route is only affordable for those who can claim it on company expenses! Everyone else suffers the train, which when I had to travel Leeds-Edinburgh on business a couple of years ago was one direct service a day, all other services requiring a change in York or Newcastle (my company, like many others, refused to pay the astronomical air fare). As my final destination was Glasgow, the journey home was even more ridiculous as this inlvolved me having to catch separate trains on Glasgow-Edinburgh-York-Leeds.
There are a huge number of business and virtually all leisure travellers who are being frozen out of the Scotland market from LBA at present.
There are a huge number of business and virtually all leisure travellers who are being frozen out of the Scotland market from LBA at present.
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JET2LBA
Daylight robbery is a bit harsh, if your company had valued your time, then the air fair, that allows you to do your business in a day and return via GLA by tea time time is good value.
Remember bmi operate this service four times a day and will normally get you there one way or another whaterver the delay is all part and parcel of a full service airline, there is a price to paying for that level of service.
Do you really believe that Jet2 would be much cheaper if you tried to get a ticket the day before, rather than 3 months earlier?
No its each to their own, Jet2 provide an excellent product for its target market, as do bmi for its market place, but they are diffrent markets.
I think JET2 would take a lot of business from the railways, but the timing would have to be right to have much impact on bmi yield, indeed in the short term it would help bmi decide whether to put a bigger aircraft on or not when the Fokker finishes in March
Remember bmi operate this service four times a day and will normally get you there one way or another whaterver the delay is all part and parcel of a full service airline, there is a price to paying for that level of service.
Do you really believe that Jet2 would be much cheaper if you tried to get a ticket the day before, rather than 3 months earlier?
No its each to their own, Jet2 provide an excellent product for its target market, as do bmi for its market place, but they are diffrent markets.
I think JET2 would take a lot of business from the railways, but the timing would have to be right to have much impact on bmi yield, indeed in the short term it would help bmi decide whether to put a bigger aircraft on or not when the Fokker finishes in March
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INKJET,
I take on board the point you make about the convenience the current bmi service provides to EDI and GLA.
The key here is a lack of competition on the routes. Bmi offer significantly cheaper fares to EDI and GLA from MAN, simply because they have BA competing for a slice of the same market. It always seems bizarre that you can also fly cheaper with bmi on LHR-EDI/GLA, a journey twice the distance, than LBA-EDI/GLA.
Competition would lower fares for everyone. An example is LBA-CDG. LS only offer one flight each day, yet BD have substantially dropped their fares on the route too.
I agree totally that those booking flights a day in advance of travel are likely to get stung, nomatter who the carrier was, but many people are able to book further in advance and would be drawn to flights which are cheaper than £100 for a return.
I take on board the point you make about the convenience the current bmi service provides to EDI and GLA.
The key here is a lack of competition on the routes. Bmi offer significantly cheaper fares to EDI and GLA from MAN, simply because they have BA competing for a slice of the same market. It always seems bizarre that you can also fly cheaper with bmi on LHR-EDI/GLA, a journey twice the distance, than LBA-EDI/GLA.
Competition would lower fares for everyone. An example is LBA-CDG. LS only offer one flight each day, yet BD have substantially dropped their fares on the route too.
I agree totally that those booking flights a day in advance of travel are likely to get stung, nomatter who the carrier was, but many people are able to book further in advance and would be drawn to flights which are cheaper than £100 for a return.
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New bmi flights
Leodis,
I don't think bmi will try and launch CPH from LBA again. SAS will kick up a fuss at MAN about it. The only definite new flight from bmi next year (summer timetable) is an extra mid morning flight to GLA taking it to 4 flights a day to GLA. I'm sure EDI will have to increase aswell or as INKJET has just said a bigger aircraft will be needed when the Fokkers go.
I don't think bmi will try and launch CPH from LBA again. SAS will kick up a fuss at MAN about it. The only definite new flight from bmi next year (summer timetable) is an extra mid morning flight to GLA taking it to 4 flights a day to GLA. I'm sure EDI will have to increase aswell or as INKJET has just said a bigger aircraft will be needed when the Fokkers go.