Air Wales from another valley ?
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Air Wales from another valley ?
I have just read a report that Air Wales are planning to operate from RAF Valley. It would seem to be in line with the MOD's wish to get revenue from any source and an area with no easy air links.
Anyone know if Valley has any sort of facilities for handling civil traffic ?
Anyone know if Valley has any sort of facilities for handling civil traffic ?
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Note the advert in Flight Int'l this week requesting tenders from Consultants to carry out feasibility studies into scheduled air services ex-Valley and also processes for the application of Public Service Obligation (PSO) funding for such routes.
Funny, not too many years ago when AWW first started talking about "around-wales" scheduled air services, I understand the Welsh Assembly told them there was no chance of providing public funding. I wonder if this is a bit of a U-turn on their part, or is it the local government of Angelsey taking the plunge themselves (rather like management of Shetland/Sumburgh methinks?!)
Funny, not too many years ago when AWW first started talking about "around-wales" scheduled air services, I understand the Welsh Assembly told them there was no chance of providing public funding. I wonder if this is a bit of a U-turn on their part, or is it the local government of Angelsey taking the plunge themselves (rather like management of Shetland/Sumburgh methinks?!)
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In order to start any route within the airline industry a route stability and useable population needs to be established and marketed . This process usually takes around a year to complete for any airline .
Admittidly the Cardiff-Brussels service is a little low on passengers and not sustainable for any airline but to establish the route for high fare paying business pax this is what the airline has to put up with ( without encouraging the rif raf ) like the 50p seats encouraged from that of the Loco's .
Good luck 6G , some good routes coming . Some good and effective marketing will also help with the main business routes .
Admittidly the Cardiff-Brussels service is a little low on passengers and not sustainable for any airline but to establish the route for high fare paying business pax this is what the airline has to put up with ( without encouraging the rif raf ) like the 50p seats encouraged from that of the Loco's .
Good luck 6G , some good routes coming . Some good and effective marketing will also help with the main business routes .
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Admittidly the Cardiff-Brussels service is a little low on passengers and not sustainable for any airline but to establish the route for high fare paying business pax this is what the airline has to put up with ( without encouraging the rif raf ) like the 50p seats encouraged from that of the Loco's .
fuzzbear,
I must declare an interest in that I would be regarded as 'rif raf' who likes to travel on low cost airlines when possible given that I have to pay my own fare and do not have the luxury of it being paid for me by an employer.
Why would Air Wales or any other airline not want to attract more pax by lowering the fares a bit? Would it not be better to have forty pax @ £100 than twenty @ £150?
Shoot me down by all means, because I am not an aviation professional, but it does surprise me that the South Wales region cannot fill at least one ATR 42 to Brussels daily (I know the flights do not run daily at present) unless, as you seem to be suggesting, fares are kept deliberately high to attract the 'bourgeoisie'. I have read more than once that the best routes, in terms of sustainability, are those with a business and leisure pax mix. I would have thought that there is plenty in Brussels and places like nearby Bruges to interest the leisure traveller.
I have just returned with my wife after spending a few leisure days in Copenhagen. We would not have done so had we not been able to fly direct from our local airport at a reasonable price. Many others appeared to have the same idea because both outbound and return flights were well-filled (the outbound was virtually full with only a handful of empty seats). There weren't that many 'suits' on board so there is a leisure market out there, surely for CWL-BRU as well.
I really hope that airlines like Air Wales and the new Air Southwest can make a go of it.
fuzzbear,
I must declare an interest in that I would be regarded as 'rif raf' who likes to travel on low cost airlines when possible given that I have to pay my own fare and do not have the luxury of it being paid for me by an employer.
Why would Air Wales or any other airline not want to attract more pax by lowering the fares a bit? Would it not be better to have forty pax @ £100 than twenty @ £150?
Shoot me down by all means, because I am not an aviation professional, but it does surprise me that the South Wales region cannot fill at least one ATR 42 to Brussels daily (I know the flights do not run daily at present) unless, as you seem to be suggesting, fares are kept deliberately high to attract the 'bourgeoisie'. I have read more than once that the best routes, in terms of sustainability, are those with a business and leisure pax mix. I would have thought that there is plenty in Brussels and places like nearby Bruges to interest the leisure traveller.
I have just returned with my wife after spending a few leisure days in Copenhagen. We would not have done so had we not been able to fly direct from our local airport at a reasonable price. Many others appeared to have the same idea because both outbound and return flights were well-filled (the outbound was virtually full with only a handful of empty seats). There weren't that many 'suits' on board so there is a leisure market out there, surely for CWL-BRU as well.
I really hope that airlines like Air Wales and the new Air Southwest can make a go of it.
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I have to totally agree . Air Wales suprisingly enough has received no public funding whatsoever from any public body . It is wholy subsidised by one major shareholder who has a belief that Air Wales can be a major player in european regional aviation - especially from the south wales region - and that becoming reality is not far off .
In vast contrast possibly the only reason BMI was attracted to CWL was due to the fact that there has been vast subsidies and public money gone into attracting WW to Cardiff Intl- both from a tourism point of view and infastructure wise from the Assembly . This fact could probably never be proved but its a shame that the Assembly do not provide any support for their own national airline .
I think ppl better review their facts before posting on Pprune they obviously know nothing bout - better leave it to the professionals or people who know what their writing about - its not guess work !
In vast contrast possibly the only reason BMI was attracted to CWL was due to the fact that there has been vast subsidies and public money gone into attracting WW to Cardiff Intl- both from a tourism point of view and infastructure wise from the Assembly . This fact could probably never be proved but its a shame that the Assembly do not provide any support for their own national airline .
I think ppl better review their facts before posting on Pprune they obviously know nothing bout - better leave it to the professionals or people who know what their writing about - its not guess work !
Last edited by Hawk; 27th Mar 2004 at 20:59.
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Just to add to the route traffic comments; when Air Wales dropped the Liverpool section of the Plymouth - Cardiff - Liverpool - Newcastle route they said that the decision to cut out Liverpool was because the Plymouth - Cardiff - Newcastle sectors were outperforming their other domestic routes and was proving very popular and the Liverpool legs had a "lower than average take-up rate" but they hoped to re-introduce it in the summer schedules.
Anyone able to confirm or deny this, BACX used to do the Cardiff - Newcastle sector.
Anyone able to confirm or deny this, BACX used to do the Cardiff - Newcastle sector.
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fuzzbear
I don't know whether I am one of the people you referred to in your last post who write without knowing facts and who would be better to leave such matters to professionals.
I admit that I am not an aviation professional, in fact I said so in my post on this thread addressed to you. As you appear to be an aviation professional I was hoping to pick your brains as to why Air Wales would want the Brussels route to be a premium fare route if this results in poor loads.
I simply wanted to try to learn something that to me, an outsider, is not obvious and was hoping that someone who apparently does know about these things might be prepared to educate me.
Jamesair
I think BA did fly CWL-NCL a few years back, but whether it was BACX or British Regional I can't be sure.
I don't know whether I am one of the people you referred to in your last post who write without knowing facts and who would be better to leave such matters to professionals.
I admit that I am not an aviation professional, in fact I said so in my post on this thread addressed to you. As you appear to be an aviation professional I was hoping to pick your brains as to why Air Wales would want the Brussels route to be a premium fare route if this results in poor loads.
I simply wanted to try to learn something that to me, an outsider, is not obvious and was hoping that someone who apparently does know about these things might be prepared to educate me.
Jamesair
I think BA did fly CWL-NCL a few years back, but whether it was BACX or British Regional I can't be sure.
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Yes British Regional, as it was in them days did an Edinburgh – Newcastle – Cardiff and rtn twice a day weekdays, once on a Sundays. It always did very well but as normal with BA and the regions it was dropped!
Air Wales are doing very well on the Cardiff – Newcastle and its nice to hear some old voices from the Gill days flying the ATR’s, all the very best to them. As for the link with Baby I hope they are flying for them and not risk sharing…………
Air Wales are doing very well on the Cardiff – Newcastle and its nice to hear some old voices from the Gill days flying the ATR’s, all the very best to them. As for the link with Baby I hope they are flying for them and not risk sharing…………
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Returning to the Brussels theme, I checked the CAA provisional figures for February 2004 which show a total 256 pax travelled on the service between CWL and BRU during that month.
With four Air Wales rotations per week and if my maths are correct, this gives an average loading of around eight (approx 17% of the ATR 42's capacity).
Even to a non aviation person such as me it seems that Air Wales would have to charge a hefty fare even to break even.
For comparison the BRS-BRU route carried 5285 pax during the same period but, given that they have three rotations each weekday and two on Sundays, even this gives an average loading of just under forty, or slightly under 50% of the SN Brussels RJ 85's capacity.
On the face of things not brilliant either, but I am sure those that know will tell me that yield is the important thing rather than load factor, and perhaps February is not the busiest month for either airline.
I have no idea of either Air Wales' or SN Brussels' yields, and I suppose they are commercial confidences anyway.
With four Air Wales rotations per week and if my maths are correct, this gives an average loading of around eight (approx 17% of the ATR 42's capacity).
Even to a non aviation person such as me it seems that Air Wales would have to charge a hefty fare even to break even.
For comparison the BRS-BRU route carried 5285 pax during the same period but, given that they have three rotations each weekday and two on Sundays, even this gives an average loading of just under forty, or slightly under 50% of the SN Brussels RJ 85's capacity.
On the face of things not brilliant either, but I am sure those that know will tell me that yield is the important thing rather than load factor, and perhaps February is not the busiest month for either airline.
I have no idea of either Air Wales' or SN Brussels' yields, and I suppose they are commercial confidences anyway.
