Cork's up and downs
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Cork Ireland
Cork has certainly experienced its fair share of losses this year with the demise of Jetmagic, and reductions frequencies by EI, FR, BAcx and BE. However a few notable firsts from Cork this year will keep things interesting.
In April one of the DUB-CPT flights is routing via ORK on way south. IN September Quantas are operating a once off B744 service from LHR-ORK-SYD. And EK will be operating a once off A330 ORK-DUBAI service as yet the date is unconfirmed.
In April one of the DUB-CPT flights is routing via ORK on way south. IN September Quantas are operating a once off B744 service from LHR-ORK-SYD. And EK will be operating a once off A330 ORK-DUBAI service as yet the date is unconfirmed.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Cork, Ireland
These one off flights from AV8, QF and EK are very welcome.
However, Cork is still losing too many destinations this summer. If we were approaching winter it would be more understandable but as of now it is just crazy.
The reduction of the Manchester flights is vexing. Down from 5 daily flights to just 2 beats me. Was there that much overcapacity over the winter and last summer?
Why are BEE pulling out of BHX-ORK? Very strong loads last summer.
Nice was one of GX's best performing routes last year with up 5 services a week. This summer, nothing. What has been done to attract new business on this route and to Nantes?
There is even a case for a single daily flight to Brussels. The last 3 to 4 weeks of the GX service proved it.
There are also reductions on Heathrow and Stansted. FR have today announced a second daily flight to Farranfore (Kerry.)
Is airport privatisation the answer?
However, Cork is still losing too many destinations this summer. If we were approaching winter it would be more understandable but as of now it is just crazy.
The reduction of the Manchester flights is vexing. Down from 5 daily flights to just 2 beats me. Was there that much overcapacity over the winter and last summer?
Why are BEE pulling out of BHX-ORK? Very strong loads last summer.
Nice was one of GX's best performing routes last year with up 5 services a week. This summer, nothing. What has been done to attract new business on this route and to Nantes?
There is even a case for a single daily flight to Brussels. The last 3 to 4 weeks of the GX service proved it.
There are also reductions on Heathrow and Stansted. FR have today announced a second daily flight to Farranfore (Kerry.)
Is airport privatisation the answer?
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 1,621
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From: Ireland
Tom:
Remember that strong loads are only half the equation. Especially on a regional jet, it's not enough to have a nearly-full plane - there needs to be a good proportion of pax paying relatively high fares too.
A rough calculation with some whizzy route-economics software on a similar stage length to ORK-NCE and an ERJ-145 suggests a fully-allocated round-trip cost (i.e. including aircraft lease costs, overheads etc) somewhere around EUR12,000. That's an 80% load factor (40 pax each way) with pax paying EUR150 on average each way to break even. Now of course if the aircraft is just sitting round in the middle of the day, it's not fair to expect it to cover its fully-allocated costs, you just want it to make some sort of contribution to fixed costs, so there you're looking at maybe EUR 8,000-9,000 - i.e. 80% LF at an average of EUR100 each way. OK, that's more doable in peak season, but that doesn't justify you getting the aircraft in the first place, just gives you something to do with it to make a few cents in the middle of the day. For the peak morning and evening rotations, you still need to identify some high-yield business routes which will more than cover fully allocated costs and thus actually make some profit and make the business case for getting the aircraft in the first place.
(Disclaimer: above numbers are only very quick estimates, as I do still have a day job as well
. They don't include ORK route support or incentives, for example. Any errors in the calculation are my fault rather than that of the software! 
)
Remember that strong loads are only half the equation. Especially on a regional jet, it's not enough to have a nearly-full plane - there needs to be a good proportion of pax paying relatively high fares too.
A rough calculation with some whizzy route-economics software on a similar stage length to ORK-NCE and an ERJ-145 suggests a fully-allocated round-trip cost (i.e. including aircraft lease costs, overheads etc) somewhere around EUR12,000. That's an 80% load factor (40 pax each way) with pax paying EUR150 on average each way to break even. Now of course if the aircraft is just sitting round in the middle of the day, it's not fair to expect it to cover its fully-allocated costs, you just want it to make some sort of contribution to fixed costs, so there you're looking at maybe EUR 8,000-9,000 - i.e. 80% LF at an average of EUR100 each way. OK, that's more doable in peak season, but that doesn't justify you getting the aircraft in the first place, just gives you something to do with it to make a few cents in the middle of the day. For the peak morning and evening rotations, you still need to identify some high-yield business routes which will more than cover fully allocated costs and thus actually make some profit and make the business case for getting the aircraft in the first place.
(Disclaimer: above numbers are only very quick estimates, as I do still have a day job as well
. They don't include ORK route support or incentives, for example. Any errors in the calculation are my fault rather than that of the software! )
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 62
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From: Scotland
All this talk of Cork and no-one's mentioned the daily GLA-ORK-GLA service operated by Loganair in their SF-340!
I'm sure it does exist, either that or I had one hell of an outer body experience at lunch time today!!!
I love operating to ORK. Fun flight, great pax, excellent crew and chirpy ATC and groundstaff aswell.
Enjoy the forthcoming summer guys and gals.
I'm sure it does exist, either that or I had one hell of an outer body experience at lunch time today!!!
I love operating to ORK. Fun flight, great pax, excellent crew and chirpy ATC and groundstaff aswell.
Enjoy the forthcoming summer guys and gals.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Cork, Ireland
I can assure you that Glasgow is always close in my mind as we have close friends living there and I never lose sight of the fab service provided by Loganair between our two great cities. The Saab SF340s are great aeroplanes too and goes some way to show that some pax are more than happy to fly turboprops.
By the way, Ambulance CA, what was the wind at Cork yesterday as you landed? Must have been interesting!
Cyrano, thank you for your thoughtful critique on the economics of a hypothetical ERJ 145 rotation between Cork and Nice. Much to think about there. I know one thing though, I wont be able to rush out and lease an aircraft any day now!
By the way, Ambulance CA, what was the wind at Cork yesterday as you landed? Must have been interesting!
Cyrano, thank you for your thoughtful critique on the economics of a hypothetical ERJ 145 rotation between Cork and Nice. Much to think about there. I know one thing though, I wont be able to rush out and lease an aircraft any day now!
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Scotland
It was just a wee bit gusty, but only 40kts or so on arrival. The 340 is an excellent crosswind machine, rocks and rolls all the way down the approach, and reasonable touchdown at max crosswind of 35kts. Very controllable toy for the job. And to be honest, to operate out of Glasgow and the Highlands in the winter, it really does need to be good for the job!!!
Being able to use the shorter runway at ORK is a great help on a windy day, and also good for cutting the corner and expediting approaches. The ATRs seem to make good use of it aswell. It's good to rock up and see the bustle on the ground nowadays with the Futura flights, BACx, Air Wales, Aer Arann and so on. Shame about Magic though. If nothing else, the aircraft definately looked the part in that paint scheme. As an aside, is the freighter aircraft a permanent resident. Think it was a DHL machine, but I could be wrong?
Just wish I could get a decent night-stop over there. How's the stout in Cork?!
Being able to use the shorter runway at ORK is a great help on a windy day, and also good for cutting the corner and expediting approaches. The ATRs seem to make good use of it aswell. It's good to rock up and see the bustle on the ground nowadays with the Futura flights, BACx, Air Wales, Aer Arann and so on. Shame about Magic though. If nothing else, the aircraft definately looked the part in that paint scheme. As an aside, is the freighter aircraft a permanent resident. Think it was a DHL machine, but I could be wrong?
Just wish I could get a decent night-stop over there. How's the stout in Cork?!
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Cork, Ireland
The DHL 757 arrives every morning from DUB around 8 am and goes out again around 8.30 pm the same evening to EMA.
Yes, runway 25/07 is great and it is a pity it is not the longer runway as the prevailing winds are generally westerly anyway. Last Sunday was interesting as a BACX BAe 146 took off on 07, had never seen a big jet use 07 before though a First Air 727F did take off on it once during their turn at doing the DHL flights. What a sight that must have been! An EI A321 also took off once on 25. Poor ol' Jetmagic used to use 25/07 for the ERJ 135 but cannot recall the '145s landing there.
Eventhough there may not be quite the same amount of airliners around this summer at Cork compared to last there will still be periods of considerable congestion on the ramps especially at the weekends due to movements but also due to the considerable work in progress whilst the new terminal is being built and drainage is laid etc. All good fun! Funnily enough, in spite of less routes this summer Cork should just about have more pax than last year - this will be some achievement if it holds true. The Aer Arann contribution is very significant in all of this. Mind you if EI had kept on to their SF340s they could have offered a near shuttle type operation between ORK and DUB like RE are doing and could now take up other routes like to Nantes and Jersey. Of course, you could say that for EI BAe146s as well too and it is all hypothetical anyway!
Well, as for the stout! What can I say!? Two locally brewed stouts: Murphys and Beamish. Murphys, brewed in the northside is my favourite. Beamish which is brewed in the southside is a little like Gillespie Stout that you would find in Glasgow - I think Gillespie is nicer than Beamish but Murphys would be the best of the three. Nothing against the Dubs but Guinness is a cruel drink!
Have a search in Nightstop Forum and type in Nightout in EICK where I made a contribution about bars. I was well on doing that and is good for a laugh!
Yes, runway 25/07 is great and it is a pity it is not the longer runway as the prevailing winds are generally westerly anyway. Last Sunday was interesting as a BACX BAe 146 took off on 07, had never seen a big jet use 07 before though a First Air 727F did take off on it once during their turn at doing the DHL flights. What a sight that must have been! An EI A321 also took off once on 25. Poor ol' Jetmagic used to use 25/07 for the ERJ 135 but cannot recall the '145s landing there.
Eventhough there may not be quite the same amount of airliners around this summer at Cork compared to last there will still be periods of considerable congestion on the ramps especially at the weekends due to movements but also due to the considerable work in progress whilst the new terminal is being built and drainage is laid etc. All good fun! Funnily enough, in spite of less routes this summer Cork should just about have more pax than last year - this will be some achievement if it holds true. The Aer Arann contribution is very significant in all of this. Mind you if EI had kept on to their SF340s they could have offered a near shuttle type operation between ORK and DUB like RE are doing and could now take up other routes like to Nantes and Jersey. Of course, you could say that for EI BAe146s as well too and it is all hypothetical anyway!
Well, as for the stout! What can I say!? Two locally brewed stouts: Murphys and Beamish. Murphys, brewed in the northside is my favourite. Beamish which is brewed in the southside is a little like Gillespie Stout that you would find in Glasgow - I think Gillespie is nicer than Beamish but Murphys would be the best of the three. Nothing against the Dubs but Guinness is a cruel drink!
Have a search in Nightstop Forum and type in Nightout in EICK where I made a contribution about bars. I was well on doing that and is good for a laugh!
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Cork, Ireland
Got wind of some good news today for Cork! VLM have been hired to do a series of summer charters to Jersey from Cork for a local travel agency. Have no other details yet but guess eqipment must the the Fokker 50. Goes some way to make up for the loss of Jetmagic on last summer's succesful Jersey operation. 
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Cork Ireland
Transatlantic confirmation
The confirmation has been made. A Ryan International B757 will arrive nonstop from JFK at 9:30am on June 23 and depart again at 12:30 for the nonstop service back to JFK. It will operate weekly thereafter. It is being organised by Hammond Tours Inc and handled in Ireland by Dawson Travel. Details of fares and flights are available at www.hammondtours.com.
Another milestone for Cork
Another milestone for Cork
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Cork, Ireland
Yes, a considerable milestone indeed for Cork. Let us all hope it works out and that at least a few flights come off as a result. I would say a huge amount of work went in to secure this achievement and a big congratulations to all concerned on both sides of the Atlantic at Cork and New York.
Of course, the doubting Tom that I am I will believe it when the 757 not only touches down from JFK but when she is again airbourne out of Cork heading for 15 West with her oceanic clearance and track ID!
If all goes pretty well the day cannot be too far off when Cork will have a scheduled service to New York? Bearing in mind Cork's maritime past there is plenty of precedent there for passenger services across to New York only now it should be of the airbourne variety!
Bristol, Cardiff taken note!
Of course, the doubting Tom that I am I will believe it when the 757 not only touches down from JFK but when she is again airbourne out of Cork heading for 15 West with her oceanic clearance and track ID!
If all goes pretty well the day cannot be too far off when Cork will have a scheduled service to New York? Bearing in mind Cork's maritime past there is plenty of precedent there for passenger services across to New York only now it should be of the airbourne variety!
Bristol, Cardiff taken note!
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 60
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From: Cork Ireland
Gulf Air Flight Details
The flight details for the GulfAir service has now been released. As previously indicated the flights will now use Cork AND Dublin and apparently the on the outward you arrive in Dubai, but on the return you leave from Abu Dhabi.
Starting Saturday 26th June
GF8007 Dep Abu Dhabi 0130 / Arr Cork 0700
GF8008 Dep Cork 0830 / Arr Dublin 0930
GF8008 Dep Dublin 1100 / Arr Dubai 2200
For the first flight on 26June the aircraft positions in from London
Confirmation of these flights is good news for both Cork and Dublin.
Anyone else think Ryanairs commitment to Cork is lacking, particularly in view of Mr. O'Learys comments today. According to him, Cork does not need a new terminal and he has no intention of launching any new services from Cork. He has said he is going to "rescue" shannon when the compulsory stop is lifted. Personally I would like to see him gone from Cork and replaced with an airline who has some interest in Cork.
Starting Saturday 26th June
GF8007 Dep Abu Dhabi 0130 / Arr Cork 0700
GF8008 Dep Cork 0830 / Arr Dublin 0930
GF8008 Dep Dublin 1100 / Arr Dubai 2200
For the first flight on 26June the aircraft positions in from London
Confirmation of these flights is good news for both Cork and Dublin.
Anyone else think Ryanairs commitment to Cork is lacking, particularly in view of Mr. O'Learys comments today. According to him, Cork does not need a new terminal and he has no intention of launching any new services from Cork. He has said he is going to "rescue" shannon when the compulsory stop is lifted. Personally I would like to see him gone from Cork and replaced with an airline who has some interest in Cork.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Cork, Ireland
Great news about the update on the Gulf Air flights. Cant wait! Dubai, Abu Dhabi & New York JFK all on the Cork boards in the same few days. Heady stuff indeed. Good that the flight is operating out through Dublin really - critical mass and all that out of DUB makes it easier to fill a smaller amount of seats out of Cork.
Am glad that Michael O'Leary has made his intentions clear about no expansion at Cork. This allows the field open for other new LCCs to examine the place without having FR looking over their shoulder. Maybe Shanno*n needs to be rescued - thankfully, Cork does not.
However, O'Leary's remark about the runway being too short is, of course, correct. It needed to be said. Very few aircraft have as good a power to weight ratio as the Boeing 757 which makes the New York service so possible. Even a 200 metre extension to runway 17/35 would have made the flight to Dubai possible direct? Or possible future flights to Orlando?
At present the new EI services to BCN & ALC are performing superbly and even MXP is also doing very well. Early days of course but all boding well for the summer so far!
Am glad that Michael O'Leary has made his intentions clear about no expansion at Cork. This allows the field open for other new LCCs to examine the place without having FR looking over their shoulder. Maybe Shanno*n needs to be rescued - thankfully, Cork does not.
However, O'Leary's remark about the runway being too short is, of course, correct. It needed to be said. Very few aircraft have as good a power to weight ratio as the Boeing 757 which makes the New York service so possible. Even a 200 metre extension to runway 17/35 would have made the flight to Dubai possible direct? Or possible future flights to Orlando?
At present the new EI services to BCN & ALC are performing superbly and even MXP is also doing very well. Early days of course but all boding well for the summer so far!
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Cork Ireland
No have not heard of the evening AMS service being re-instated (as yet anyway).
As far as Ryanair are concerned, Tom, i agree that the runway is too short and should be lengthened by at least another 500 mtrs. However, I dont see the relevance of of Michael O Learys comment as far as his own operations are concerned. A look at quite a few of their destimations and you will notice that the runways there are indeed shorter than Corks. Indeed to fly from Cork to ANY of their existing continental destinations, the runway here is more than sufficient. So whats he getting at ??? Mr O Leary from day one has always been anti Cork, yet I cannot understand why. Needless to say I dont expect to be bringing you any good news about Ryanair and their Cork ops.
The statement by him that he will "rescue Shannon" should be taken with caution. Look what he did to Shannon with the Hahn flights when he fell out with them.
As far as Ryanair are concerned, Tom, i agree that the runway is too short and should be lengthened by at least another 500 mtrs. However, I dont see the relevance of of Michael O Learys comment as far as his own operations are concerned. A look at quite a few of their destimations and you will notice that the runways there are indeed shorter than Corks. Indeed to fly from Cork to ANY of their existing continental destinations, the runway here is more than sufficient. So whats he getting at ??? Mr O Leary from day one has always been anti Cork, yet I cannot understand why. Needless to say I dont expect to be bringing you any good news about Ryanair and their Cork ops.
The statement by him that he will "rescue Shannon" should be taken with caution. Look what he did to Shannon with the Hahn flights when he fell out with them.
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Dublin to the Middle East via Cork??? Is this Shannon Mark 2? What nonsense indeed. Wont be long before Gulf Air realise the futility of this.
Point to point works if one can fill the aircraft but with the "few seats" that will originate in Cork, its madness.
And welcomed here by so many, no doubt the same people who so vehemently de-cry the Shannon stopover.
Point to point works if one can fill the aircraft but with the "few seats" that will originate in Cork, its madness.
And welcomed here by so many, no doubt the same people who so vehemently de-cry the Shannon stopover.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 130
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From: Ireland
Cork
Maximus,
I think there is a very important point you are missing here:
This is a charter service. Gulf air will not have the realise the futility of anything: they only provide the plane, crew etc. The tour operator takes the risks of filling the plane, and it is they who have made an informed decision to stop in Cork.
The tone of your post worries me: am I to believe that after having listened to the arrogance and ignorance of the shannon stopover crew (and i'm from the Shannon area, so I know a bit about this), we now also have to listen to someone who thinks DUB is the only airport in this country deserving of anything???
There is no Cork stopover: it is a choice made by the tour operator.
As an aside, the day we get scheduled flights to all these exotic locations is the day we can really start celebrating.
I think there is a very important point you are missing here:
This is a charter service. Gulf air will not have the realise the futility of anything: they only provide the plane, crew etc. The tour operator takes the risks of filling the plane, and it is they who have made an informed decision to stop in Cork.
The tone of your post worries me: am I to believe that after having listened to the arrogance and ignorance of the shannon stopover crew (and i'm from the Shannon area, so I know a bit about this), we now also have to listen to someone who thinks DUB is the only airport in this country deserving of anything???
There is no Cork stopover: it is a choice made by the tour operator.
As an aside, the day we get scheduled flights to all these exotic locations is the day we can really start celebrating.