Kenya Airways expansion plans - 60/70 expat captains required .
 

You failed to link properly.

KQ to triple fleet size in ten years

(currently KQ has 31 planes)

Have the unions approved foreign captains? Rumors are all previous attempts to bring in expats have been shot down by unions. I don't think *Experienced* captains would really eat any local jobs. Management will be most happy to replace expensive expat captains with lower wage locals as soon as they have gathered enough experience..

Unions should be worried if management starts bringing in low-hour "hour-builder" FO's.

Sorry , still a novice with computers !

quote :-

Have the unions approved foreign captains? Rumors are all previous attempts to bring in expats have been shot down by unions. I don't think *Experienced* captains would really eat any local jobs. Management will be most happy to replace expensive expat captains with lower wage locals as soon as they have gathered enough experience..

Yes , the unions have never approved expats , the rumours correct about the shooting down . This has hampered growth already . I suspect that some agreement has been hammered out if this is to happen . Not sure what all the fuss is about really , any expat contract is controlled by work permits / visas anyway , and conditions can be restricted to preclude education allowances etc , kept to purely salary and accomodation ( not the 'permanent ' type ) , and the last time they did offer 1 year contracts for 73 skippers the salary itself was laughable , and certainly not more than a local skipper anyway !

So , good luck with finding 70 expats , especially if you want to keep your safety record going , not many airlines are having much luck at the moment even with far-superior T&Cs to KQs likely offerings , if this article is to be believed .

The sad thing is that hiring expats on a short - term basis is normally a requisite for any airline that needs to expand over a short period and while its new local crew gain experience . Perhaps there is more to this stubbornness than meets the eye ?

Why bring in qualified expats when you can get local captains? Sure, they plant one in the mangrove swamps now and then, but apart from that they are frigging awesome.
Go local, you KNOW it makes sense.

Bellview,sorry,FirstNation takes off
 

After a gruelling process that lasted more than a year, Nigeria`s FirstNation Airlines received its AOC last week. Today, one of its three locally registered A320-200s was in acdtion at Lagos MMIA, though I cant say if it was revenue service. The CEO and founder of defunct Bellview is also CEO/founder of FirstNation

In my opinion Kenya Airways would benefit greatly if they could employ Expat captains. Its a good airline but safety record speaks for it self. I prefer SAA if I have a choice because I think training standards are higher and promotion is thorough. Korean air Singapore airlines many Chinese airlines have a min Expat policy and no doubt safety has improved. Go KQ

Well, I wonder where they will find 70 embraer captains/ expats willing to take short term contracts, this is a relatively new aircraft and there are still kenyans they can train....me thinks it's a long term plan by TN to slowly weaken the union....

What are you on about malboroman?????

The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent.

It is interesting to read that they are planning on expat captains, once again.

I got in a running online battle with some guy: I talked to local KQ pilots who told me that expats would be required in the future. The online guy told me that I was wrong: no one told me that, expats would not be needed, because KQ would NEVER hire expats ever again.

If they plan to expand a lot, they will need expats, at least short term.

Methinks your 'internet buddy' confuses the difference between the Kenya Pilots Union ( whatever it calls itself ) and KQ management . I know for a fact that the CEO would like to have some expat crew , but the one-eyed shoulder-chipped pilot force would happily bring the whole lot down rather than feel insecure .

Aviation is a global occupation. I sincerely hope no Kenyan pilots fly else where in the world if they don't allow others to fly in their airlines back home. That would be rather hypocritical.

Don't forget, if you aren't a EU citizen, you won get a job i any European company. Kenya airways in the short term must hire foreign pilots to train locals,but they must be replaced by a citizen of any African nation,just like it happens in Europe and most parts of the world.

oompilot ur such a hypocrite, i know for a fact that expats are a no no in SA, you guys in SA don't let anyone other than South Africans near ur aircraft let alone flying ur aircrafts, you cannot be talking like that for Kenya or Kenyan Pilots, wot about all those afrikans flying all over the world undercutting others pay wise for jobs, u guys r unbelievable.

Expat Pilots would be a bad influence in Kenyan aviation. I bet that an expat pilot would do a high speed, idle thrust, fuel saving decent and maintain 250 kts. to 10 miles. Everyone knows that you should be fully configured at 30 miles, lie about your position to ATC in non-radar environments because you are "The Pride of Africa" and deserve priority, and make long-winded and self-important radio transmissions proceeded by "Break, break" even though ATC is clearly about to or have just issued instructions to another aircraft. An expat pilot would also incorrectly identify themselves as a "heavy" aircraft in the terminal environment because ICAO phraseology and standards don't apply to KQ...

I've been on one of those 30nm fully configured approaches with The Pride Of Africa. The only thing I can add is that we were, at a guess, at about 1000ft aswell!. It was rather puzzling!

My two cents worth...
Whereas KQ may, and is willing to hire expatriate captains, they have a mountain to climb to get it done.
Firstly, the KCAA demands a conversion of any foreign ATPL licence to a kenyan one to operate Kenyan registered aircraft. This involves I believe that one sits one ATPL conversion exam, and does a flight test. Previously one required only to sit an airlaw exam, but under the KCARS I believe this has changed. Be prepared to part with about US$ 3,000 under the table to pass this exam. The process to convert your licence should take about 3 months, give or take.
Secondly, KQ or Kenyan pilots do not control Kenya's immigration laws regarding work permits. The Kenyan law is clear that a foreigner may only obtain a work permit, if in employment, for a one year renewable period. During that one year period, the employer must take steps to TRAIN at least one kenyan citizen to an equivalent level. The cost of an annual work permit is about US$ 2,000 to be borne by the employer, plus considerable payments under the table to concerned immigration officials.
Thirdly, the unemployment levels of Kenyan youth is so high, that the employment of foreigners will be a particularly highly emotional and highly unpopular political move for the concerned politicians who will have to endorse such a policy change. The last time such a move was considered, KALPA successfully lobbied the politicians and easily won.
Finally, KQ can hardly be described as a young airline.It has been operating largely for at least the past 20 years with a fleet of about 20 to 25 aircraft, mix of narrow and wide body aircraft, and has been operating even sophisticated Boeing 777-200 for the past 8 years. The average FO in KQ has passed through the Boeing 737, 767 and 777 before qualifying for command. They then get a chance to have a first command on the Embrear 170/190 series. It seems to me that whereas they may not be enough FO's ready to fill the left hand seats, the few they have are quite experienced and have a solid foundation to command.
There are also several captains in Kenya rated on modern (and not so modern) jet aircraft flying for regional operators who are well experienced, and may also require a short time in the right seat before they can transition to captains.

If there is a way I can contribute for a while I would go there and assist. It is not to look down it is to raise.....

pretty skewed and mis informed comments on this thread, but i guess thats how it is always with fellas who have an axe to grind with an entity they dont like or feel bitter about.
Stay focused on the thread guyz mud slinging and random facts dont help anybody.

Well, to swing back on track, are the expatriates coming to fly with mainstream KQ or is the new launch airline going to absorb them, ??...right now more planes than pilots and will get worse...

KQ management are trying to play a dirty game Kenyan style who will benefit from the expatriates? I guess some pockets will be lined nicely. If it's pilots they need there are enough local pilots to cover the shortage. To many jet rated pilots who can fly on the left easily. They should get pilots from local airlines and that way they will stimulate the local job situation. My take is European airlines give first priority to there citizens why shouldnt KQ do the same. Buy Kenya build Kenya principle

That is the same platform the union has been arguing from, exhaust local pilots then from the region before you look at getting expats from beyond, and at some point the company looked to buy into the idea and they went into overdrive recruiting direct entry pilots from local companies, funny thing is about two thirds didn't make it through the interviews, so the company comes back to the union and says hey we've tried recruiting but the lads from wilson do not meet our min requirements, whether it was a deliberate move so that they could eventually get expats is anyone's guess, i will not purport to know.
And with the current expansion plans i doubt if the KALPA can keep saying no to expats and stifle the companies growth. I guess we have to wait and see how it unfolds.

My understanding is the expats will be on the E170/190 and maybe the 737's but not on the wide body fleet

Considering KQ looks at high school results, definitely a lot of pilots will be disqualified, as if that decides what kind of pilot one will be. Know jet capts who failed high school but they are amazing pilots. I wonder if the expats high school results are given if they will compare to the Kenyan system

When I was there, Kenya strongly favoured it's own pilots, which is OK. One problem, though, was that pilots from East Africa (Uganda, Tanzania, Rwanda, Burundi) were supposed to be equal to Kenya pilots, and they were not treated that way at all.

In fact, Kenya has THE most difficult license conversion process of ANY ICAO country....except of course if you bribe the right people they just give you everything you need without the pilot having to do anything at all except show up and receive all your licenses/ratings/medicals.

Kenya had the Conversion Exam which was required to convert your license. No other country does that...they all use the Air Law exam to convert your license.

@2yace...well said. thought out, well considered and unemotional post.

Well KQ advertised for direct entry captains in the local press yesterday 9th Dec. They want skippers for the 737 and E170/190.
Minimum qualification is 4000 hours total time and 500 hours PIC on type, and current on type. No mention of whether the positions are for expatriates or locals. I guess those who are interested can check online on the KQ website for further information.
All the best.

Interesting, as I was told by several people online that this would never happen, despite the fact that KQ had hired DEC expats before.

I hope it works out well for KQ in the long run. I also hope the expansion at NBO is continuing and will be done soon!

I see that only Embraer DEC positions are currently advertised on KQ careers website . Does this mean no 73 drivers required anymore ?

Kalpa ad on 17th feb
 

I notice Kalpa placed an advertisement saying they are building a CV database in the Daily Nation on Friday 17th February 2012.
Is it related to the KQ plans?

KQ method of addressing pilot shortage
 

As Kenyans it is very disturbing and humiliating to stomach this expat pilot intake being considered at KQ.I personally got discriminated even in neighbouring Tanzania!We REALLY should safeguard employment for Kenyans like every other nation does.
It is costly to keep maintaining our licenses annually or bi-annually to be eligible for employment (especially when unemployed).Some of us have ATPLs and considerable experience and are still jobless...If KQ needs their pilot shortage addressed efficiently they might want to review their recruiting process and request different benchmarks for different categories of experience to facilitate a more expeditious local pilot intake.Surely the pilot shortage can be thus addressed in no time.The psychometric and psychomotor testing might be relevant at the ab-initio stage but surely for those already proven in the field a simulator flight evaluation should be sufficient to discover the potential talents or weaknesses from a CRM perspective, especially when academic qualifications have already been met.Higher education should also be given more weight over KCSE...and what if schooling was done abroad in an exam system clearly more superior to our Kenyan system, shouldn't that be MORE credit worthy?

Importantly, the recent edition in the application process which adds a new constraint of restricting number of times one can apply to twice is really an impedence in the method used to address this widely acclaimed pilot shortage at Kenya Airways.Another issue is why is primary focus on ab-initios and Direct Captains on E JET or equivalent only...there is no equivalent of E JETS in Kenya...neither CRJ ,ERJ 135, dc9,MD80 or any other jet we know in Kenya equivalent...if we had Fly by wire Airbus may be..but we do not.Why not consider as a priority Direct entry F.O.s with full ATPL to fast track them for Command upgrade or create movement for those senior F.O.'s already in KQ to pave way for experienced Kenyan F.O.s .Also WHY NOT give accelerated training on Direct entry ATPL F.O.s with command on turbo prop above 12tonnes or similar criterion after giving them a command assessment on their sim evaluation check before joining?

KQ wants to maintain the anachronistic process of recruitment (that Airforce Aptitude was used since colonial times and only two tests bear any bearing on aeronautical aptitude..instrument nterpretation and flight visuo spatial awareness).Where there is a shortage I would think a system to alleviate that shortage might be considered to relaxing the non-flying relevant criteria for entry and certainly not impose constraints such as the maximum number of times one can apply, or having to wait a whole year after failing an attempt...why not 3 months or six months...it is not a jail sentence or is it??

KALPA...are you listening?

Sorry to say, whilst I agree with most of what you say (& particularly empathise with the use of irrelevant tests to ascertain suitability for a job you are already performing) I have to disagree with your assertion that there should be no limit to the number of times one applies.
There is an airline (actually a group of airlines) in Europe (TUI) that will not accept an application for a short-term contract job ,even a 2nd time, if you previously failed the assessment. Given that anyone can have a bad day, I find this a little unfortunate, as I am sure they lose many potentially worthy candidates, but, as we say, "it is their trainset" , so what to do?
Whilst I find this a bit OTT, I would tend to disagree that you should be able to keep going back, as frequently /soon as you like to be re-assessed. If they, for reasons they are under no compunction to reveal to you, decide they don't want you, unless their requirements have changed, or their only bugbear was your lack of experience, which you have significantly increased, why should they continue to re-assess you ad infinitum,? & even if they do, why do you think the result should be any different ? because you get better at doing their "tests" ? Perhaps ones ability to perform the tests (ridiculous as some of them may be) may be enhanced after a few tries, isn't that something, they justifiably , perhaps wish to avoid ?
One should not confuse owns own desires for a particular position, with the fairness of the mechanism required to obtain it.

Capt Play Station defending KQ mechanism
 

No personal desire of mine was advocated but it was meant for all Kenyans.Two attempts just is not fair.No one mentioned there should be ad-infinitum attempts.Many people I know Have sat the tests several times before finally being given a chance.Those people I know fly KQ...so where is the consistency in standards?

AS you mentioned, you can fail any of those tests just out of having a bad day.Provided the demand for pilots is available, supply should not be filtered through bad spirited tampering or restrictions.Some people are dropped at the first stage and others at the final stage.Shouldn't there be a scheme to appreciate previous aptitudes demonstrated by previous passes and exemption made on the retake...after all we are dealing with the same person.Retake of the same tests can lead to enhanced grades or diminished grades compared to previous test sitting.The most important aptitude a pilot can demonstrate is the flying license and records he/she upholds.

I think you missed my points Captn Play station, and they were offered as potential solutions to alleviating existing pilot shortage faced by KQ.Your focus was on if you can not pass the KQ battery tets twice than you are not good enough for KQ.I think that is over the top.It is understandable to some extent that if in re-taking an identical test no progress was shown...and again it just shows that one was not good at taking that particular test...NOT whether they are a competent and safe pilot...which I imagine ought to be the focus by KQ.By all means, for the ab-initio (whom after all KQ is financing their training) throw whatever benchmark is deemed necessary...for competitive reason, I am sure that you will agree.But don't go and judge ab-initio candidates using the same benchmark as for the more experienced ones...that is no level field of play.I am sorry...but please try and see that I am being proactive here.yes it will be nice if this argument might serve my interest,ofcourse, but it sure will divert the desperate strategy of sourcing foreign pilots and help most of other Kenyan Pilots holding a similar grievance.This is a profession that costs a lot to develop (and yes not all of us were bred as ab-initio pilots!), and Kenya Airways has a social obligation to look for solutions to employs its available and talented local cadre before seeking european or other pastures.

Let it rest Captain Play station...KQ itself will come to terms with the reality it faces, sooner rather than later!

EXPATRIATES (THEY WILL HAVE TO COME)
 

FLEET GROWTH (EXTRACT)

Currently, we have commitments for the purchase/leasing of Q Boeing 787 aircraft
and 3 Boeing 777-BOOER, all due for delivery from Q4 2013. In addition to the above,
we have options on 4 other 787 aircraft. From mid this year, we will take delivery of 8
E-190 jets, one a month till February 2013. All in all, by 2021, our fleet size will
increase from the current 34 to 107. This will allow us to both increase our
frequencies and grow our destination coverage from 56 currently to 115.

ADDITIONAL CAPTAINS REQUIRED
2012-2013 (74)
2013-2014 (64)
2014-2015 (95)
2015-2016 (53)
2016-2017 (59)

KQ needs help.these expansion figures are crazy.Hence my opinion that we need expatriates.

Vc10Tail,

I am afraid we will have to agree to differ. I have failed selections too, but chose to blame myself for under-performance/ lack of preparation, rather than saying "the system isn't fair, I should be given another chance, or even one last chance, or maybe just one more time" !
Being brutally harsh (and life/aviation is sometimes, why should they re-assess you, if someone else can walk in the door & pass 1st time ? try also to see it from their point of view.
I also don't subscribe to your viewpoint that they should "look for solutions to employs its talented and available local cadre", do you wish to be assessed by the same criteria as everyone else (be they crazy old Air Force /NASA tests or something a little more "modern") or do you want them to say "You are from Kenya, take as many attempts as it requires" whilst expats have to pass 1st time.
Anyhow, it is not my personal affair, & probably easiest we agree to differ, but I don't think emphasising "they need pilots, Kenyans are available, they should do whatever is required to enable us to be employed first before they take foreigners" sounds very professional from an aviation point of view.
Most countries employ their own nationals 1st, & this is perfectly normal, asking for the goalposts to be widened to make it possible :hmm: that isn't cricket.

Edited to say, you have explained to me by P.M. that the "system" is a bit unworkable, & that your main criteria for requesting more attempts is this convoluted regime you have to circumnavigate.
In this I will concur, I wanted to be a pilot , not a performing seal/dolphin, so tell me why exactly I have to balance a ball on the end of my nose & jump through so many hoops ? :D

"they need pilots, Kenyans are available, they should do whatever is required to enab
 

Captn Play Station:you have had fun to add sarcasm above but it is not called for. You certainly quoted me out of context.This is what I wrote:
"Kenya Airways has a social obligation to look for solutions to employs its available and talented local cadre before seeking european or other pastures." It is about social obligation to employ QAULIFIED local pilots ..am sure was the unequivocal intended message."Professionalism" or lack there-of can be determined once a job is offered!We are not judging each others' professionalism in this forum.It is a forum for addressing grievances, sharing rumours, raising awareness and hopefully sharing in concord knowledge that can help us further our industry.I may have left out other objectives, but am sure that is the general gist.We are not here to put people down per se.

How many people do you know at KQ (and it is obvious you are an insider) that have whizzed through those tests (which if you are privy to their details as I have discovered some do, and therefore better prepares them for the same) only to fail at the simulator OPC or line training stage?Is it fool proof then?...? Importantly, does it turn away more potential pilots than it takes in? KQ HR will answer that for you.Recently rumour had it that a pool of two dozenful of experienced pilots (whose credentials were respectable by any "professional" industry standards) did not make it beyond the psychoM stage..bar I think one.And those were highly experienced pilots who have safely managed several real life in-flight emergencies behind their CVs.Just pause for a moment to digest that.Is the system to blame or the individual?

@Slatsinop, those figures currently are just that "figures", kqs expansion is tied to a number of variables, a successful IPO to enable the company raise funds, expansion of, JKIA, we all know the bureacracy and ineptitude that is KAA etc.

I tend to agree with VC10 tail, there seem to be a deliberate unwillingness on the part of the company to hire locals, the failure rate at the interview stage is ridiculously high, considering these are people coming with plenty of experience, a while ago it so happened quite a good no. Of ex regional 737 Rated pilots were rejected by the company yet most of them made it to EK, so looks like history is about to repeat itself. Just to stress how kq s disinterested in local talent, three very senior ex kq captains who had left for greener pastures, one a 777 commander at EK, the other a 747 skipper at singapore cargo, and the last a wide body capt. At Saudi were willing to come back on the E jet, at the bottom of the seniority, move that after consultations KALPA okayed since they were kenyans after all, after a few interviews now the company seems disinterested.

The irony of this is those western expats dont even go through the same rigorous process of selection, all they do is produce their ratings and the rest is done for them, why the double standrards i ask, and trust me due to this lack of screening we have seen a few bad ones.

Let not th company tell us about shortages and theres a good no. Of duly qualified FOs waiting to upgrade and an equally good no. Of kenyans out there willing to join the airline, thats why the union is working hard to make sure all kenyans with relevant qualifications are considered first, then expats will eventually be employed, and the union is well aware that eventually we will need expats to augment the no. Of pilots as we expand, but not now, at this point it will only work to stifle the movement of the already qualified, and deny locals jobs

@Captplaystation. Expats dont go through the same screening process, as far as i know, they just get interviewed orally since they are deemed "experienced", isnt that just plain unfair and stinks of malice, why not have a level playing field for both experienced locals and expats. Kq is where it is due to the disdain it treats local pilots with, and its inability to plan ahead, simple

odericko2000
 

Well said brother! The law of conservation of national employment is applicable to supply and demand of pilots!

:D:D:D:D:D:ok:

Expansion out of tandem
 

Currently, we have commitments for the purchase/leasing of Q Boeing 787 aircraft
and 3 Boeing 777-BOOER, all due for delivery from Q4 2013. In addition to the above,
we have options on 4 other 787 aircraft. From mid this year, we will take delivery of 8
E-190 jets, one a month till February 2013. All in all, by 2021, our fleet size will
increase from the current 34 to 107. This will allow us to both increase our
frequencies and grow our destination coverage from 56 currently to 115.


Where is KQ planning to park these aircraft? The expansion at HKJK is insufficient for what they currently have. Other local airlines are also expanding and airlines are commencing flights to NBO every other month. ETIHAD latest one in March 2012.

Are they planning to set up a new hub in HKMO MBA? This expansion makes no business sense!

Where is the money for this ambitious expansion coming from? Rights issues? Only a fool would invest in this expansion given how poor KQ's bottom line is.

What's the rush for expatriates? Sounds like a case of the cart before the horse.

They did it again, put out an advert on pilot jobs, and this time round with so much impunity and arrogance it wasn't even fleet specific, just said jet fleet, as if they operate props!:ugh:
This means its across board all the way to the 777, gloves are off for this one.

Rumor has, it's pressure from K.L.M who is a major shareholder and sits on the board of the airline:suspect:,