Bush Pilot vs Airline Pilot
 

Which of the above, knows how to fly with their hands when the s:mad: hits the fan........

Now THIS is going to be a hot thread. I can remember the days when I got lost flying in a Grumman Trainer over the Drakensberg at FL whatever it was and trying to climb with my foot pushing the throttle further and further in but the aircraft remained in a slow decent :ooh:. Then when I got into Senior Management one day and saw my Pilots landing with their bums into the right hand seat of a King Air with 200 hours and then at 500 or so getting Command and then off to the Airlines - they never had the "bush" experience of having to be hands on........I want to watch this thread unfold :)

Well, if it goes wahoonie shaped in the snot in RVSM in busy EU airspace I'll go with the airline boytjie, please...:}

As each situation is unique, I do not believe that this one can be cut and dried... (It does depend on currency on type as well)

However, I would still go with the Airline Pilot and herewith my reasoning:

Most Bush Pilots have not received Airline Training, but on the otherhand (Darren), quite a few Airline Pilots were former Bush Pilots. Either actually or whilst figthing a war with the SAAF.

The key issue being: Airline Pilots get the chance of frequently being put into all sorts of situations and then taught to safely cope with them (while all the chips are down) - i.e. Those dreaded Sim Sessions.

The ordinary Bush Pilot does not have this luxury - i.e. When the situation starts developing he/she might have to start making plans not needed or anticipated before.

The FIRST thing the Airline Pilot does: Looks over his/her shoulder to see who the Instructor is that is punching the Sim Panel, before realising that this is real...

Mostly - Airline Pilots would have seen it all during Initial and Recurrent Training.

IMHO

Neither me thinks. Most of us fly with our aircraft, using all the operating equipment - autopilot included.

IMHO and from my airline experience, bush pilots need a lot of training to be airline pilots. So does Ex-SAAF pilots, other civvie pilots, astronauts........

If you are just talking about handling skills, we have ex-bush pilots who are very good and some that are not very good at all. Same for pilots with any other background. I would say that SAAF guys arrive with an advantage in having seen aircraft operated close to its limits, but they just don't fly enough in the new SAAF to make a noticeable difference. SAAF guys are also not very CRM orientated and might initially struggle to adapt, same for the so-called bush pilots.

So which pilot is the best? : The one that retires after 40 years of flying without killing anyone or bending any aircraft maybe?

The one that retires with the most ex-wives and still with a roof over his head.:hmm:

I guess it depends which s:mad: ??

• Bokkie crossing the runway less than 50 metres in front of you 15 kts before rotate?
• Electrical fire in the wing at FL 330 on A/P?

Both very dangerous, you could get hurt if you do the wrong thing. I'd say the Airline guy might get away more easily, cause he had the training.

With the bush flying you'd have to resort to techniques AC manufacturers would never dream about!
:sad:

What I was trying to get at, is without the airforce training ect, the guy that comes out with fresh comm and daddy knows someone and he then ends up in the right hand seat without getting to know how to use his hands.:ugh:

Bush flying is a discipline, airline flying is a discipline.All part of one larger industry, with many other disciplines. One is not better than the other, just trained and/or tuned for the enviroment they operate in. I'm an ex bush pilot, but i train people staright from school onto a modern glass jet. They are very talented youngsters. So I'm sure they would equally adapt to a bush enviroment if they chose. Its all a state of mind. When i was bushy i saw many ex airline types struggle. It wasnt their skills just their mindset, and vice versa.I still see people from the bush struggle to shake habits innapropiate for an airline job....including me.

By the way the world is not flat. There is life beyond bokkies and the saaf/saa.

While it can be said that a lot of guys and girls get into bush flying as a step towards the airlines, will there ever be any agreement as to which is more benificial when comparing bush flying/general charter with instructing when it comes to developing the skills needed to be a valuable crew member in the big stuff? Also, as Swamp Rat asks, is it possible to stick a new comm pilot in the right seat of something bigger or more complicated too early, before the basic handling errors and lessons are out the way? I think the answer to this last question is certainly "yes". My first question might be slightly off the point but it seems a relatively logical query in this context.

In terms of sheer manipulative flying skill I would say the bush pilot is way ahead of the airline pilot. In terms of "monitoring" the automatics of an airline and pushing little buttons to guide the aircraft, the airline pilot is way ahead.
In theory it is hoped that an airline pilot should be equally competent at hand flying his aircraft without the aid of automatics as well as being competent at using the automatics. In practice research has revealed that airline pilots admit to being less than fully competent at manipulative skills because many operators actively discourage pilots from disconnecting the automatics even in fine weather conditions. Sadly, automatic complacency comes into play with airline pilots followed soon by automatic dependancy and its all down hill from there as far as pure flying skills are concerned. Of course not all airline pilots are like that - much depends on their enthusiasm for flying.

...and their current type. Yay for the SP77 equipped Fluff, sans PDCS!

Shrike 200. Got it in one!

I know what you were trying to get at and believe me, your background does not matter nearly as much as your attitude and a bit of aptitude.

Anybody who makes it into an airline without at least a decent amount of other flying time-
( bush,charter,instruction,aerobatics - whatever as long as it develops stick an' rudder )
-is at a disadvantage.

I have seen more than my fair share of low time co jo's on widebodies s&*% scared of a crosswind....and then I am thankfull for all that "Wan Wing Low" I got to practise before I got to see Mr Wan over here in Asia sweat it. But he pronounces it better than me!!!

i have done some bush flying in my days,and it was very challenging as i was the pilot,, loadmaster,check in,engineer,dispatch,cabin crew,ops control,ticketing agent,cleaner,ground servicing agent,ramp coridinator, catering supervisor and sometimes even a.t.c.

Now looking back and seating in my glass cockpit at FL350 with an airline that employs people to fiil all this job profiles,i dont MISS BUSH FLYING, but the experience is valuable

Maybe you should rephrase the question. I would like to know who can make the better decisions. Airline pilots have died together with all their pax, because they cannot operate outside of SOPS when a situation calls for it. They are either too scared to make a decision based on a highly volatile environment, for fear of losing their jobs due to non-compliance to SOPs, or they have never actually learnt the art of informed decision making, as the decisions are made FOR an airline pilot all the time.

Nugpot and Tinpis hit it on the head.......

Me thinks that is Bollocks! :sad:

Am I then correct in understanding that Airline Pilot's are born with 2, 2.5, 3 or 4 Gold Bars on each shoulder...?

So they never did any other flying or ever had any of those experiences you are referring to? Why then are all flying contracts etc. trying to get the valuable experience and hours to get into an Airline? :oh:

Your statement confuses me a bit, but hey, so does the FMC somedays...:O

No clear cut answer, it depends on the pilot and his background.

Give me an airline pilot that has earned his position after years and hours flying bush, acro, instructor, tugging and everything else thrown in. In an emergency he has the back up of professional training, manuality and the capacity to make decisions on feel, training and experience.

An airline pilot that makes it straight to the left seat after only flying airlines with sops and high tec electronics will not be as good.

Horses for courses: I flown with airline pilots that can't land a Cessna anymore (but then I don't know how to start a turboprop).

Not every single pilot in the world wants to be in the airlines. That is the misconception that lies at the heart of the head-butting between the two camps. Airline pilots believe that every single contract pilot, want to be like them...wrong. I flew contracts because I felt that was the most challenging flying I could lay my hands on. The time came when I was over contract flying, just because I cant live the lifestyle ANYMORE, so do you think I applied to the airlines?? Not a chance. I rather took a job in another sector of aviation, because I have no interest in becomming a systems manager, I love flying for the hands on experience. If I could do the kind of flying that I did on contract for the last few years, AT hOME, I would never do anything else, and I would forever giggle at the airline girls flying their fat-assed busses into space shuttle runways.

Have a look at certain accidents in the world where, had the pilot diverted from the SOPS, the aircraft and many lives could have been saved. Swissair 111 comes to mind...

I prefer a pilot who can think on his feet, not one whos thoughts are dictated by what other people have decided, over a discussion in an office. The aviation environment is too flexible and fluid to have had certain decisions made beforehand.

I do however agree with most posts in that the attitude is what makes or breaks a driver.

I.R.PIRATE
If you have not been an airline pilot, how do you know the answer? Yes there are SOP's to be followed. However take crosswind landing limits. Heavy jets have limits far higher than any singles are licenced for. I look back at landing in extreme weather conditions (Scotland in Winter storms) in light twins and remember the luxury of the large runways. Even the largest of runways become limiting and requiring precision and challenging flying when on weather limits with a heavy jet, and as a Captain I get to make many decisions still.
From bush pilot (Rhodie cpl)to heavy captain I have done it, and when I look back feel lucky to have survive some of the stupid things I did when younger. Remember the statement 'There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots'. There are many different flying career available. Some people want to progress to the big ships, other don't. Their choice, but why knock it? I know where I would rather be!

Au contraire mon ami - have done a few thousand hours of airline flying. Hate it.:ok:

ps: Rememer too that as South African pilots we have to start in SA, and airline flying in this country is piss.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Pirate......you crack me up !!!!

Did a few hundred hours of airline stuff and have to say it was a pleasure, even though it was based in another country. The nicest thing was having a schedule and SOPS so nothing came as a surprise such as destination changes en route, or an HF call telling me to go back to where I've just been two hours ago, because some bozo couldn't be bothered to be on time...:rolleyes:

I.R.PIRATE

I had a friend who left the highlands and islands to fly B757's on holiday charter. He too hated it, left and has enjoyed a career still flying light turbo's. I had no idea from you original post you had any airline experience.
As I said there are many different ways to spend ones life in aviation. I know a little about aviation in SA, but am in no position to post comments on any problems faced. I was lucky to move from Zim when I did, although there was a period when I met my mates in London, who having just flown in on the B707 while I was flying a SD360 out of Glasgow, that I thought I had made a dreadful mistake. Oh to have a crystal ball when making career decisions!
Going back to the original thread though, I find pilots who have seen other fields of aviation, before entereing into airline flying do on average have better handling skills. Cadets from my company though do have sound training and background knowledge compared to 'self improvers' such as myself. However, it doesn't matter how much money you have, you can buy a licence but you cannot buy experience. Did a Delhi in the monsoon, and the crew was myself (bushpilot), one cadet co-pilot, with useful current sop and book skills, and one new joined co-pilot, local guy from Delhi, ex B737 captain who had done all his flying in India and had plenty of local knowledge. A good crosscut of experience and pleasant and profession working team.
As for challenging flying, winter is approaching here in the northern hemisphere. Do I fancy the challenge of Chicago in a winter storm, or maybe that 48 hour slip on the beach in Barbados. I have done been frightened in aircraft, so maybe I just might leave that Chicago for someone junior who might need the experience :E

Yeah right..!:sad:

Was just wondering how many of your thousands of hours flying Airlines in SA was spent flying a Dash 8 @ MLW of 19 051 kg's into Richards Bay during torrential rains, with cross winds between 25 and 30 Knots...:D

Here is the best part, because it is a Non-Precision approach and the weather is on the deck, you are sitting on your hands watching a 250hr SAA Cadet do the Approach so that you can do the Landing (hopefully).

It is piss - I agree! :E

(That's why they love it and would not change it for the world)

Btw, it also beats doing "attempted" low level Barrel Rolls in a Beech 1900.

The two camps used to be SAAF and Civvie trained pilots - now it is bush pilots vs airline pilots. I don't really know why any member of either side should be fishing for compliments about how challenging HIS environment is and how s*#thot pilots in HIS group are.
I believe the original question had to do with flying skills, but I will combine that with decisionmaking ability.
I prefer an FO who knows precisely where he is in three-dimentional space and who can operate the FMS and autopilot well. During a monitored non-precision approach (statistically the most dangerous phase of flight in ANY discipline) and as mentioned by Q4NVS, I don't give a continental about my FO's handling skills. I will be doing the landing and he has to deliver me at a position from where I can make a safe landing using the automation available.
I also don't particularly depend on his decisionmaking ability. SOP's are written in part so that a junior FO has a rule that he can follow in calling for a go-around under certain unsafe conditions. He does not need to make a decision. The chief pilot made it for him. By the time he becomes a captain, he will have seen hundreds, if not thousands, of these approaches, and he will have developed the necessary skills.
As an aside. After listening to ex-"bush-pilots" over a beer. I am starting to wonder about decision making ability. Overweight take-offs, flights without adequate diversions, operating with u/s equipment, etc...... It speaks of really good decision making skills!
Finally. Bad pilots have no monopoly on accidents. It happens to the best of us - literally. Murphy does not care about your background.

Nugs, you've pretty much described why I want to get out of bush flying and into airlines. Making a decision and then managing the constant insidious pressure to overstep the mark is just becoming too much. Getting old and scared now.....:uhoh: :ooh:

SRT,

Update your CV mate. SAX isn't done yet. 33 new FO's this year and counting.

I have to agree that it is all about the attitude and skill of the individual!
There are many pilots with chips on their shoulders thinking that being a 'Bush Pilot' makes them a good hands-on operator..... and the same for an Airline pilot who thinks they're better at the other stuff..... :yuk:
However, I have known a few people that have not quite hacked the bush flying thing ie. going off runways etc, (purely due to a lack of co-ordination and confidence - basically should never have been issued a Comm, but that's a whole different issue) who have settled very well in an airline environment in the right-hand seat?
But then bush flying isn't for everyone!
Swamprat are you bored mate?:}

Have to agree with nugpot on what he said.

The other thing I would say, having done contract flying for almost 5 years, I think it is only a means to an end, like most things in life, a stepping stone to something better hopefully.

It would also seem to me, as I think someone has already said, what the initial question is asking is that of comparing apples and pairs.

I think the standard of training in airline type flying is of a much higher standard than 'bush' flying, the standard of maintenance is also higher, the use of SOP's is better and regulations, limitations and aircraft performance are better adhered to, to.

It might well be more boring, but I know which one I prefer.

Point one. There is more to flying, airline or bush, than the merits of yarpieland.
point 2 I have 2000 instructor ga, 8000 thousand bush , 5000 airline, and have experienced all that has been discussed here.
I'm a good operator (its on me file) due to the overall experience, bush and airline.Neither has primacy.I can do both becuase I've done both. It doesnt make me special or elitist.I behave appropiately in either world but temper my behaviour with experience and lessons learned from both worlds.
A wrong decision in a b200 will hurt a few people. a wrong decision in a 777 will be a catastrophe. As i said before , different disciplines. A surgeon is not a gp and vice versa, but they are all doctors.

Any polarised opinions indicate a general inexperince and local to the discipline currently employed in.
PS Im a good operator because I have learned to wind my neck in and do what is safe not what satisfies my ego . Not always easy.

Well said...:D

I agree with just about every single thing said on this thread, but>>

How can one make a wrong decision in a 777?

Easy.......keep pushing the stick after the houses have already got very big......!!

I agree with Farty......(how did you get that name anyway??.......NO on second thoughts I dont really want to know).......actually while this whole thread is good for a bit of a lark its really is all a bit of nonsence.......it wouldnt be a good idea to rely on (only) bush experience in trying to fly an aluminium overcast and it would probably be an equally bad idea to go fly out in the bush with only airline experience.......and really at the end of the day we are all still learning!!?? :)

no matter what and where you fly >> the day you stop learning is the day you start dying....



.....unless you are an airline pilot >> who knows everything anyway...................................................... .and walks on water.:} :E

Aaaahh......but can you leap over tall buildings in a single stride.??:=

Does it count if I can float with the help of a lilo? :O

For your sake I dearly hope your words are not true...:eek:

Are you not the 1 with Thousands of Hours Airline Experience? :\

Your posts have really deteriorated to NOTHING - Personally I am now not sure whether your are not just another 11 year old hacking into his dad's Laptop - Sorry :oh: