Bush Pilot vs Airline Pilot
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Now THIS is going to be a hot thread. I can remember the days when I got lost flying in a Grumman Trainer over the Drakensberg at FL whatever it was and trying to climb with my foot pushing the throttle further and further in but the aircraft remained in a slow decent 
. Then when I got into Senior Management one day and saw my Pilots landing with their bums into the right hand seat of a King Air with 200 hours and then at 500 or so getting Command and then off to the Airlines - they never had the "bush" experience of having to be hands on........I want to watch this thread unfold 
. Then when I got into Senior Management one day and saw my Pilots landing with their bums into the right hand seat of a King Air with 200 hours and then at 500 or so getting Command and then off to the Airlines - they never had the "bush" experience of having to be hands on........I want to watch this thread unfold
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As each situation is unique, I do not believe that this one can be cut and dried... (It does depend on currency on type as well)
However, I would still go with the Airline Pilot and herewith my reasoning:
Most Bush Pilots have not received Airline Training, but on the otherhand (Darren), quite a few Airline Pilots were former Bush Pilots. Either actually or whilst figthing a war with the SAAF.
The key issue being: Airline Pilots get the chance of frequently being put into all sorts of situations and then taught to safely cope with them (while all the chips are down) - i.e. Those dreaded Sim Sessions.
The ordinary Bush Pilot does not have this luxury - i.e. When the situation starts developing he/she might have to start making plans not needed or anticipated before.
The FIRST thing the Airline Pilot does: Looks over his/her shoulder to see who the Instructor is that is punching the Sim Panel, before realising that this is real...
Mostly - Airline Pilots would have seen it all during Initial and Recurrent Training.
IMHO
However, I would still go with the Airline Pilot and herewith my reasoning:
Most Bush Pilots have not received Airline Training, but on the otherhand (Darren), quite a few Airline Pilots were former Bush Pilots. Either actually or whilst figthing a war with the SAAF.
The key issue being: Airline Pilots get the chance of frequently being put into all sorts of situations and then taught to safely cope with them (while all the chips are down) - i.e. Those dreaded Sim Sessions.
The ordinary Bush Pilot does not have this luxury - i.e. When the situation starts developing he/she might have to start making plans not needed or anticipated before.
The FIRST thing the Airline Pilot does: Looks over his/her shoulder to see who the Instructor is that is punching the Sim Panel, before realising that this is real...
Mostly - Airline Pilots would have seen it all during Initial and Recurrent Training.
IMHO
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IMHO and from my airline experience, bush pilots need a lot of training to be airline pilots. So does Ex-SAAF pilots, other civvie pilots, astronauts........
If you are just talking about handling skills, we have ex-bush pilots who are very good and some that are not very good at all. Same for pilots with any other background. I would say that SAAF guys arrive with an advantage in having seen aircraft operated close to its limits, but they just don't fly enough in the new SAAF to make a noticeable difference. SAAF guys are also not very CRM orientated and might initially struggle to adapt, same for the so-called bush pilots.
So which pilot is the best? : The one that retires after 40 years of flying without killing anyone or bending any aircraft maybe?
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I guess it depends which s
??
With the bush flying you'd have to resort to techniques AC manufacturers would never dream about!
??- Bokkie crossing the runway less than 50 metres in front of you 15 kts before rotate?
- Electrical fire in the wing at FL 330 on A/P?
With the bush flying you'd have to resort to techniques AC manufacturers would never dream about!
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What I was trying to get at, is without the airforce training ect, the guy that comes out with fresh comm and daddy knows someone and he then ends up in the right hand seat without getting to know how to use his hands.
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Bush flying is a discipline, airline flying is a discipline.All part of one larger industry, with many other disciplines. One is not better than the other, just trained and/or tuned for the enviroment they operate in. I'm an ex bush pilot, but i train people staright from school onto a modern glass jet. They are very talented youngsters. So I'm sure they would equally adapt to a bush enviroment if they chose. Its all a state of mind. When i was bushy i saw many ex airline types struggle. It wasnt their skills just their mindset, and vice versa.I still see people from the bush struggle to shake habits innapropiate for an airline job....including me.
By the way the world is not flat. There is life beyond bokkies and the saaf/saa.
By the way the world is not flat. There is life beyond bokkies and the saaf/saa.
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While it can be said that a lot of guys and girls get into bush flying as a step towards the airlines, will there ever be any agreement as to which is more benificial when comparing bush flying/general charter with instructing when it comes to developing the skills needed to be a valuable crew member in the big stuff? Also, as Swamp Rat asks, is it possible to stick a new comm pilot in the right seat of something bigger or more complicated too early, before the basic handling errors and lessons are out the way? I think the answer to this last question is certainly "yes". My first question might be slightly off the point but it seems a relatively logical query in this context.
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In terms of sheer manipulative flying skill I would say the bush pilot is way ahead of the airline pilot. In terms of "monitoring" the automatics of an airline and pushing little buttons to guide the aircraft, the airline pilot is way ahead.
In theory it is hoped that an airline pilot should be equally competent at hand flying his aircraft without the aid of automatics as well as being competent at using the automatics. In practice research has revealed that airline pilots admit to being less than fully competent at manipulative skills because many operators actively discourage pilots from disconnecting the automatics even in fine weather conditions. Sadly, automatic complacency comes into play with airline pilots followed soon by automatic dependancy and its all down hill from there as far as pure flying skills are concerned. Of course not all airline pilots are like that - much depends on their enthusiasm for flying.
In theory it is hoped that an airline pilot should be equally competent at hand flying his aircraft without the aid of automatics as well as being competent at using the automatics. In practice research has revealed that airline pilots admit to being less than fully competent at manipulative skills because many operators actively discourage pilots from disconnecting the automatics even in fine weather conditions. Sadly, automatic complacency comes into play with airline pilots followed soon by automatic dependancy and its all down hill from there as far as pure flying skills are concerned. Of course not all airline pilots are like that - much depends on their enthusiasm for flying.
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I know what you were trying to get at and believe me, your background does not matter nearly as much as your attitude and a bit of aptitude.
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Anybody who makes it into an airline without at least a decent amount of other flying time-
( bush,charter,instruction,aerobatics - whatever as long as it develops stick an' rudder )
-is at a disadvantage.
I have seen more than my fair share of low time co jo's on widebodies s&*% scared of a crosswind....and then I am thankfull for all that "Wan Wing Low" I got to practise before I got to see Mr Wan over here in Asia sweat it. But he pronounces it better than me!!!
( bush,charter,instruction,aerobatics - whatever as long as it develops stick an' rudder )
-is at a disadvantage.
I have seen more than my fair share of low time co jo's on widebodies s&*% scared of a crosswind....and then I am thankfull for all that "Wan Wing Low" I got to practise before I got to see Mr Wan over here in Asia sweat it. But he pronounces it better than me!!!
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i have done some bush flying in my days,and it was very challenging as i was the pilot,, loadmaster,check in,engineer,dispatch,cabin crew,ops control,ticketing agent,cleaner,ground servicing agent,ramp coridinator, catering supervisor and sometimes even a.t.c.
Now looking back and seating in my glass cockpit at FL350 with an airline that employs people to fiil all this job profiles,i dont MISS BUSH FLYING, but the experience is valuable
Now looking back and seating in my glass cockpit at FL350 with an airline that employs people to fiil all this job profiles,i dont MISS BUSH FLYING, but the experience is valuable
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Maybe you should rephrase the question. I would like to know who can make the better decisions. Airline pilots have died together with all their pax, because they cannot operate outside of SOPS when a situation calls for it. They are either too scared to make a decision based on a highly volatile environment, for fear of losing their jobs due to non-compliance to SOPs, or they have never actually learnt the art of informed decision making, as the decisions are made FOR an airline pilot all the time.
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Airline pilots have died together with all their pax, because they cannot operate outside of SOPS when a situation calls for it. They are either too scared to make a decision based on a highly volatile environment, for fear of losing their jobs due to non-compliance to SOPs, or they have never actually learnt the art of informed decision making, as the decisions are made FOR an airline pilot all the time.
Am I then correct in understanding that Airline Pilot's are born with 2, 2.5, 3 or 4 Gold Bars on each shoulder...?
So they never did any other flying or ever had any of those experiences you are referring to? Why then are all flying contracts etc. trying to get the valuable experience and hours to get into an Airline?
Your statement confuses me a bit, but hey, so does the FMC somedays...
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No clear cut answer, it depends on the pilot and his background.
Give me an airline pilot that has earned his position after years and hours flying bush, acro, instructor, tugging and everything else thrown in. In an emergency he has the back up of professional training, manuality and the capacity to make decisions on feel, training and experience.
An airline pilot that makes it straight to the left seat after only flying airlines with sops and high tec electronics will not be as good.
Horses for courses: I flown with airline pilots that can't land a Cessna anymore (but then I don't know how to start a turboprop).
Give me an airline pilot that has earned his position after years and hours flying bush, acro, instructor, tugging and everything else thrown in. In an emergency he has the back up of professional training, manuality and the capacity to make decisions on feel, training and experience.
An airline pilot that makes it straight to the left seat after only flying airlines with sops and high tec electronics will not be as good.
Horses for courses: I flown with airline pilots that can't land a Cessna anymore (but then I don't know how to start a turboprop).