Copilot/fo/p2 Responibilities
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COPILOT/FO/P2 RESPONSIBILITIES
So you now have a P2 rating on that turbine and you are offered a job flying the a/c somewhere in Africa (or further afield). You arrive and start flying the routes. Strange, you think, many of these A/Ds have potholes big enough to cripple a King Air, your Caravan seems to be quite heavily loaded and fully fueled but no mass and balance form is filled in, then to your horror you take off with full flaps! Your 1900 develops a couple of MEL snags which should delay the flight, but they are not written into the flight folio and the flight proceeds anyway. And your captain was with you the night before and your are sure that his last Castle went down well after midnight!
You innocently enquire why you were never taught GPS letdowns on groundschool and don't you need to carry more reserve fuel for this flight? The answer is "you must look after the client and if we don't, the opposition will get the contract - they are much better than us, they can take off on unbalanced fields and fly much more overweight than we can!"
But you are new and really need the hours so you decide not to rock the boat. So where do you stand if anything should go wrong?
I don't believe that the buck stops with the captain and would like to open the bidding at 49% of the responsibility. I would be intrigued to find out what the consensus is out there. Also what responsibility do the office bearers in your company carry for expecting such operations? If your ops manager doesn't have a COM or ATPL what authority has the CAA got over him?
My instructor used to say "don't worry what the CAA has to say, what does your insurance company say?"
Don't wait too long to learn the answer first hand!
You innocently enquire why you were never taught GPS letdowns on groundschool and don't you need to carry more reserve fuel for this flight? The answer is "you must look after the client and if we don't, the opposition will get the contract - they are much better than us, they can take off on unbalanced fields and fly much more overweight than we can!"
But you are new and really need the hours so you decide not to rock the boat. So where do you stand if anything should go wrong?
I don't believe that the buck stops with the captain and would like to open the bidding at 49% of the responsibility. I would be intrigued to find out what the consensus is out there. Also what responsibility do the office bearers in your company carry for expecting such operations? If your ops manager doesn't have a COM or ATPL what authority has the CAA got over him?
My instructor used to say "don't worry what the CAA has to say, what does your insurance company say?"
Don't wait too long to learn the answer first hand!
Last edited by lambert; 5th Mar 2003 at 13:58.
Look after yourself. You are the most important thing in the aircraft. If you are unhappy, SPEAK UP!!!!
Life is to short to let somebody try and pull the wool over your eyes. You have spent a lot of time and money to get where you are, so make sure you fly safe.
Got no idea what company you are with, but if you can`t speak to your Captains or management, time for all of you to do a CRM course.
Good luck and keep the blue side up!!
Life is to short to let somebody try and pull the wool over your eyes. You have spent a lot of time and money to get where you are, so make sure you fly safe.
Got no idea what company you are with, but if you can`t speak to your Captains or management, time for all of you to do a CRM course.
Good luck and keep the blue side up!!
Last edited by FuelFlow; 5th Mar 2003 at 18:42.
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Lambert,
You make very valid points in your post above and I understand exactly where you're coming from.
This my friend is the truth. If you lose one of those donkeys on one of those overweight takeoff's and manage to put the ship down in a khaya in deep Africa where you kill 5 children, 3 women, your Captain (who's seat you think you are now that much closer to getting) and a rabid dog, but manage to survive, TRUST ME, your ops manager/director will not be sitting beside you in court saying
This is what he will be saying that day in court while his sidekick interviews someone else to fill your place
blah blah bull****...
My suggestion is you load the aeroplane according to the W & B limitations and cover your arse.
This my friend is the truth. If you lose one of those donkeys on one of those overweight takeoff's and manage to put the ship down in a khaya in deep Africa where you kill 5 children, 3 women, your Captain (who's seat you think you are now that much closer to getting) and a rabid dog, but manage to survive, TRUST ME, your ops manager/director will not be sitting beside you in court saying
We had to look after the client and if we didn't, the opposition would get the contract - they are much better than us, they can take off on unbalanced fields and fly much more overweight than we can.
We employ profesisonal pilots and pay them to make safe professional decisions. Our Ops manual has clear defined rules......
My suggestion is you load the aeroplane according to the W & B limitations and cover your arse.
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I do not envy you...
I really do not envy you. The sorry aspect of this whole issue, is that you are now experiencing first hand what so many other RHS drivers/ young COMM pilots etc have experienced before you and in all probability experience after you.
I fully agree with Fuelflow and Warlock 2000: YOU and only YOU count on that aircraft. Stay within the a/c performance limitations and the rules and regs and cover your arse.
Do yourself a favour and get hold of a copy of the company ops manual. Read it, understand it and although you might or might not ruffle some feathers in the process, stick to it. That way you stick within the law and you help your company to stick within the law.
Although some companies are easy to throw the "...if you do not want to do the flight , I'll get some-one else to do it...", you have to make the decision whether you want to become and old pilot or a bold pilot. Remember, you do not find old and bold pilots.
Fly safe.
I fully agree with Fuelflow and Warlock 2000: YOU and only YOU count on that aircraft. Stay within the a/c performance limitations and the rules and regs and cover your arse.
Do yourself a favour and get hold of a copy of the company ops manual. Read it, understand it and although you might or might not ruffle some feathers in the process, stick to it. That way you stick within the law and you help your company to stick within the law.
Although some companies are easy to throw the "...if you do not want to do the flight , I'll get some-one else to do it...", you have to make the decision whether you want to become and old pilot or a bold pilot. Remember, you do not find old and bold pilots.
Fly safe.
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Where is the problem?
Having survived the above mentioned operations before and then worked the BY THE BOOK ops, I wonder where the soluton to this problem can be found??
Yes the operations "somtimes" demand a bit extra to get the job done due to the circumstances. for eg a medi-vac into a hot strip with fighting and general poo hitting the fan.You go in, do the job, save the people and go home feeling good with youself, knowing full well the field was not balanced for your a/c and you had to pull a "bit" more flap on take off to get out....Live by the gun die by the gun..
The other problem is that we are not flying a/c suiteable to the operations. On a 200 contract they want 1900 space and load, on a 1900 contract they want DC3 space and load. Ive found that when confronting said UN / Agency explaining that a bigger a/c would be more cost efficient and more "legal" but would cost more per block hour they generally go "Thanks but no thanks, gotta look after our budget"
Not only that but to find a logistics person who understands "balanced field operations" is not to easy.
The other problem is that your company sells the a/c with complete false performance figures and this is another issue that needs to be addressed. At the end of the day its fraud.
Well I certainly do enjoy the by the book contracts these days and feel you should all stick to the AFM and SOPs!!! It really is worth it and you enjoy your flying so much more.
Thanks
4g
Yes the operations "somtimes" demand a bit extra to get the job done due to the circumstances. for eg a medi-vac into a hot strip with fighting and general poo hitting the fan.You go in, do the job, save the people and go home feeling good with youself, knowing full well the field was not balanced for your a/c and you had to pull a "bit" more flap on take off to get out....Live by the gun die by the gun..
The other problem is that we are not flying a/c suiteable to the operations. On a 200 contract they want 1900 space and load, on a 1900 contract they want DC3 space and load. Ive found that when confronting said UN / Agency explaining that a bigger a/c would be more cost efficient and more "legal" but would cost more per block hour they generally go "Thanks but no thanks, gotta look after our budget"
Not only that but to find a logistics person who understands "balanced field operations" is not to easy.
The other problem is that your company sells the a/c with complete false performance figures and this is another issue that needs to be addressed. At the end of the day its fraud.
Well I certainly do enjoy the by the book contracts these days and feel you should all stick to the AFM and SOPs!!! It really is worth it and you enjoy your flying so much more.
Thanks
4g
I also agree that you should speak out. Remember a while back at JNB there was an F406 that crashed on dep off 21L. Now although they could not cfm whether the acft was overloaded we unfortunatly have 3 dead pilots.(sympathy to those that did deal with them)
If you are flying SA reg acft I sugest then that if yur moaning to the company doesn't work try filling out a Confidential hazard Report to the SACAA. Although they do ask for your ctc details these are kept aside from the report when they look into it and are mearly used so that they can give you feedback.
Forms avbl in the SA AIP GEN section or on the caa web site
www.caa.co.za
and click on the CAHRS on the right
And they do look into all the reports they recieve.
This is great for SA but the problem is what the other contries are doing to try stop this (Sweet nothing in most cases unless it involves taking a bribe here or there)
I do think that if you are unhappy then you shouldn't fly but also see the otherside that if you don't do this flight then where is your pay cheque comming from.
Just hope that you can find an honest operater to work for.
good luck to all you low hrs pilots
If you are flying SA reg acft I sugest then that if yur moaning to the company doesn't work try filling out a Confidential hazard Report to the SACAA. Although they do ask for your ctc details these are kept aside from the report when they look into it and are mearly used so that they can give you feedback.
Forms avbl in the SA AIP GEN section or on the caa web site
www.caa.co.za
and click on the CAHRS on the right
And they do look into all the reports they recieve.
This is great for SA but the problem is what the other contries are doing to try stop this (Sweet nothing in most cases unless it involves taking a bribe here or there)
I do think that if you are unhappy then you shouldn't fly but also see the otherside that if you don't do this flight then where is your pay cheque comming from.
Just hope that you can find an honest operater to work for.
good luck to all you low hrs pilots
