Expat Recruitment in Kenya Airways, What's the Catch?
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Expat Recruitment in Kenya Airways, What's the Catch?
KQ is on overdrive looking for expat drivers, management has placed new adverts all over including Lagos and China, against the wishes of the combative Kenya Airline Pilots Association, their argument? Delivery of six new E190's this year and 15 737-800's from next year is not sustainable with supply from the pool of locals exclusively.
Considering it is an Election year in Kenya, far and few qualified typed e jet drivers, and obviously one of the strongest Unions in the region standing in managements way, will they(management) succeed in their quest to bring in expats?
And with the T's and C's on offer from KQ, are guys really going to take up the positions offered?
Considering it is an Election year in Kenya, far and few qualified typed e jet drivers, and obviously one of the strongest Unions in the region standing in managements way, will they(management) succeed in their quest to bring in expats?
And with the T's and C's on offer from KQ, are guys really going to take up the positions offered?
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The KQ pilot's union is the best thing that has happened to KQ's competitors. Most airlines in developing countires have brought in expats to facilitate expansion when there was not enough local supply.
The KQ pilots are being extremely short-sited in trying to block the expats who would be on short-term contracts. For those of us who work for a competitor, we say "go KQ pilot's union", you are doing us a favour!!
The KQ pilots are being extremely short-sited in trying to block the expats who would be on short-term contracts. For those of us who work for a competitor, we say "go KQ pilot's union", you are doing us a favour!!
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jbayfan :KQ competitors caution
jbayfan...I take it you are , as you state in your ID box, a South African? Am not in defence of Kenya Airways methods.I am a proponent of Kenya Airways recruiting local qualified pilots before considering to look beyonnd borders.It is what every nation does...developed or non-developed.
What competition are you personally offering to KQ?I think the only competition you are posing is to Kenyan unemployed pilots or kenyan pilots wishing to further their careers with their national pride..Kenya Airways.If they are not qualified enough they ought to be entitled to some training deal to enable the experience requirements to be met.I am sure qualification and experience on any jet or advanced glass cockpit turbo prop is sufficient, with transition training on the e-jet or B737, to enable the Command deficit to be narrowed.There are plenty of non e-jet rated pilots in Kenya.
jbayfan, I am sure you got to where you are as a result of some slack cut to you at some stage in your career by your national airlines.Charity begins at home mate...that you can not despute.So scrounge for those short term stints in SA or elsewhere.I am certain that should a Kenyan apply for a job to fly even single engine planes in SA shall be rudely denied.That was my experience! Jbayfan, I suggest you reserve your competitor mambo jambo for the Network and Revenue managers and Ministry of transport!They know best how to wield off competition What you are crying out is apparently "sour grapes".Let us Kenyans have our own sour grapes.One man's grapes is another's fermented wine!
What competition are you personally offering to KQ?I think the only competition you are posing is to Kenyan unemployed pilots or kenyan pilots wishing to further their careers with their national pride..Kenya Airways.If they are not qualified enough they ought to be entitled to some training deal to enable the experience requirements to be met.I am sure qualification and experience on any jet or advanced glass cockpit turbo prop is sufficient, with transition training on the e-jet or B737, to enable the Command deficit to be narrowed.There are plenty of non e-jet rated pilots in Kenya.
jbayfan, I am sure you got to where you are as a result of some slack cut to you at some stage in your career by your national airlines.Charity begins at home mate...that you can not despute.So scrounge for those short term stints in SA or elsewhere.I am certain that should a Kenyan apply for a job to fly even single engine planes in SA shall be rudely denied.That was my experience! Jbayfan, I suggest you reserve your competitor mambo jambo for the Network and Revenue managers and Ministry of transport!They know best how to wield off competition What you are crying out is apparently "sour grapes".Let us Kenyans have our own sour grapes.One man's grapes is another's fermented wine!
Last edited by Vc10Tail; 8th Apr 2012 at 08:09.
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sicamore and jbayfan, you're jealous of KQ and Kenya's potential, period
And in the interim, why don't you reconstruct the ****holes you both come from, so that they may provide you with the kind of opportunity that is Vc10tail's right, or is it that even then, you would not be able to make the cut in said ****holes? Vc10Tail has every right to be upset that his motherland can certainly do more to enhance his career prospects, but isn't. Pro active, "us-and-not-others" kind of measures are what Germany has effected through Lufthansa for four decades and the success of this strategy is evident in the German airline's safety record. No, I mean it's GERMANS ONLY, and not even other EU citizens for pilot positions at the national airline. And so, be advised whichever one of you who may be flying in Kenya, that you could do with some appreciation for being let in in the first place. And if insane jealousy is what you feel when a man seeks justice in his own land, please get the hell out !!!
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jbayfan, don't give all credit to the unions - KAA with its super-slow-motion expansion program of JKIA and KCAA with its ever growing bills and bureaucracy are doing the best to ensure customers choose foreign competitors instead of KQ 
.
dash200: "Germans only" has worked very well for Lufthansa safety record, while "Kenyans only" has worked not so well for Kenya Airways. Experienced foreign captains is what KQ needs, and people shouldn't see it as an threat but rather as opportunity for skills transfer. For those of you think you already "have all skills needed for left seat", wake up, there is always more to learn from others.
. dash200: "Germans only" has worked very well for Lufthansa safety record, while "Kenyans only" has worked not so well for Kenya Airways. Experienced foreign captains is what KQ needs, and people shouldn't see it as an threat but rather as opportunity for skills transfer. For those of you think you already "have all skills needed for left seat", wake up, there is always more to learn from others.
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Dash 200
Just two small points: DLH, Deutsche Lufhansa means [B]NOT[B] that you have to be German. You can apply if you speak German on a certain level. I met alot of people around the world who do that. You also need a JAR License to start your endeavour. Your Passport does not count, just the right to live and work within the EU. The same counts for USA, they do not care where you come from as long as you have either a Green Card or a Work permitt/permanent resident and the FAA license.
I have been a Expat for over 15 years and I expirienced both, open arms and total fear, just depends where you are and if you proove yourself then the objection will dissapear. Therefore you need to be moderate, flexible, open minded, humble and......... proud to be part of the Team.
Fly safe and land happy
NG
I have been a Expat for over 15 years and I expirienced both, open arms and total fear, just depends where you are and if you proove yourself then the objection will dissapear. Therefore you need to be moderate, flexible, open minded, humble and......... proud to be part of the Team.
Fly safe and land happy
NG
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Thanks keitaidenwa, B737NG
keitaidenwa, I concede that skills transfer is a sensible way of improving the in-house workforce, and KQ probably needs it, but I worry that management could easily use it as a ploy to flood KQ with outsiders while the pool of suitable Kenyans (F/Os) is neglected.
B737NG, I don't need a job in Europe or the US if that's what you think. But you detect a flaw in my thinking: the intakes into Germany's aviation academy were, and possibly could still be, all German. They constituted the bulk of Lufthansa intakes. As it happens, non-Germans could fly for Lufthansa today, at least in theory. But we all know that theory and the real world often don't coincide.
Gentlemen, I promise to be more restrained in responding to those who fail to feel the pain when people think their land could get them a better deal. For me, fortunately or unfortunately, the whole issue is tied to the emancipation of Mother Africa, in spite of the economics, globalization and all that. Perhaps that's why I'm so passionate about it.
B737NG, I don't need a job in Europe or the US if that's what you think. But you detect a flaw in my thinking: the intakes into Germany's aviation academy were, and possibly could still be, all German. They constituted the bulk of Lufthansa intakes. As it happens, non-Germans could fly for Lufthansa today, at least in theory. But we all know that theory and the real world often don't coincide.
Gentlemen, I promise to be more restrained in responding to those who fail to feel the pain when people think their land could get them a better deal. For me, fortunately or unfortunately, the whole issue is tied to the emancipation of Mother Africa, in spite of the economics, globalization and all that. Perhaps that's why I'm so passionate about it.
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Keitaidenwa - skills transfer
I take it that in your opinion kenya airways lacks a safety culture from your thread. Yes, accidents do happen and are unfortunate but for you to state that kenya airways needs foreign experienced captains to enhance its safety is just in bad taste. It seems to you that foreigners are the solution which leads me to one question, do you really know what makes a pilot safe?
The current aggressive expansion drive can be a threat to safety if it is not properly checked as there will be an influx of many pilots(foreign or local) who are not familiar with Kq operations. Proper training will be the key and who better placed to do it, a foreign pilot or a kq instructor?
Kq is out to expand at a time when Kenya is heading to an election year. As you may be aware, Kenya had post election violence in 2008 and it had an effect on Kq operations. If it had not been stopped in time, we would not be talking about this expansion right now. Has management of Kq learnt a lesson? I wonder which foreign pilot would leave the comfort of his current employment to come to kenya at a time when even the election date is not for certain given the very recent past his history. Unless you are out of employment and desperate, then the excuse of skills transfer should not be the case. How safe will you be anyway in Kenya during the elections?
The current aggressive expansion drive can be a threat to safety if it is not properly checked as there will be an influx of many pilots(foreign or local) who are not familiar with Kq operations. Proper training will be the key and who better placed to do it, a foreign pilot or a kq instructor?
Kq is out to expand at a time when Kenya is heading to an election year. As you may be aware, Kenya had post election violence in 2008 and it had an effect on Kq operations. If it had not been stopped in time, we would not be talking about this expansion right now. Has management of Kq learnt a lesson? I wonder which foreign pilot would leave the comfort of his current employment to come to kenya at a time when even the election date is not for certain given the very recent past his history. Unless you are out of employment and desperate, then the excuse of skills transfer should not be the case. How safe will you be anyway in Kenya during the elections?
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Oh come on Frututu , stop banging the ' let's frighten them away with loose talk about election trouble ' . We are not all morons .
The skills transfer subject is valid . I have had no problem finding employment as a Training Captain since I left a Big Legacy Carrier , as most far seeing airlines want people who are going to bring a fresh perspective to CRM etc , especially when expansion and upgrades are on the way . Accidents must be avoided at all costs . Nationalism has no place when it comes to safety .
The Kenya Airways argument is purely xenophobic , and it has slowed the expansion over the last 5 or 6 years , no question. I have said it before , expat contracts can be easily controlled and curtailed with proper agreements between management and union , but only if they have the interest of the airline at heart .
That seems to be sadly lacking .
The skills transfer subject is valid . I have had no problem finding employment as a Training Captain since I left a Big Legacy Carrier , as most far seeing airlines want people who are going to bring a fresh perspective to CRM etc , especially when expansion and upgrades are on the way . Accidents must be avoided at all costs . Nationalism has no place when it comes to safety .
The Kenya Airways argument is purely xenophobic , and it has slowed the expansion over the last 5 or 6 years , no question. I have said it before , expat contracts can be easily controlled and curtailed with proper agreements between management and union , but only if they have the interest of the airline at heart .
That seems to be sadly lacking .
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Kotakota
It seems you have decided to interpret my statement the way you deem fit. All I did is state a FACT but you put words in my mouth. I bet if you are Kenyan, you would agree with me. Am not trying to scare anyone from seeking gainful employment in Kenya, let alone KQ.
You also seem to believe that KQ lacks a safety culture thus the need to accept expats. Do you reaaly believe this? Oh come one, KQ has a wide pool of experienced instructors, unless you want to object to that too!
The union has every right to defend its position. Do you really know how management in KQ operates? Its interesting you say the union can have control over expats contracts which tells you do not know how KQ management operates!
I do respect your opinion though but I urge you to take a look at the union point of view.
You also seem to believe that KQ lacks a safety culture thus the need to accept expats. Do you reaaly believe this? Oh come one, KQ has a wide pool of experienced instructors, unless you want to object to that too!
The union has every right to defend its position. Do you really know how management in KQ operates? Its interesting you say the union can have control over expats contracts which tells you do not know how KQ management operates!
I do respect your opinion though but I urge you to take a look at the union point of view.
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I don't know of barely any pilots outside of Africa and Asia who haven't done there time before getting into an airline.
That is one of the reasons that, starting next year, the US will be THE most restrictive: ANY -121 (passenger airlines with planes over 19 seats) pilot (both the PIC and SIC) will need a FULL PIC ATP. Currently, an ATP requires a minimum of 1500 hours total time, plus a lot of other requirements, so starting in 2013 all -121 airline pilots will need an ATP to even start in the right seat as an FO.
No, I mean it's GERMANS ONLY, and not even other EU citizens for pilot positions at the national airline
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keitaidenwa "For those of you think you already "have all skills needed for left seat
For those of you think you already "have all skills needed for left seat", wake up, there is always more to learn from others.
Thank you for your ounce of wisdom Sir!I have learn't something new today...
No one claimed explicitly what you quoted as above...hence the reason the word "training" keeps cropping up on this thread time and again.In Aviation the day you think you know it all is the day you should step down your airplane(and careful at that) and bid your final farewell.
To give your argument some benefit of doubt; skill transfer is not what Kenya Airways needs, it has plenty there-in from the decades of safe flying experience.I can count the number of accidents in its history since East African Airways...and it is less than my fingers.Consider that against the number of flights or number of passengers and cargo it has faithfully and safely transported over the same time frame!The kind of argument you are proposing qualified during the winds of change in the post colonial transition period..not any more.I have witnessed the standards at Kenya Airways.(take a peek at You tube also)They were born out of East African Airways, which was essentially a carbon copy of then BOAC (now B.A.) and those standards compare well to the best of airlines in the world.Visit the major Airlines in the gulf and you shall see that Kenyans, few as they may be,enjoy respectable positions.Enquire with Air Traffic Controllers world wide and you shall be given a commendable view on how Kenyan pilots deport themselves.Kenya is not a bannana republic my friend! It is why fussy KLM got married here!From KLM and the Sky team alliance there is a lot of culture transfer that is both good operationally, and commercially.What Kenya airways can benefit from experience, they are getting it from the manufacturers who sell their planes to Kenya airways additional to advice from their allies.Kenya is competent enough to ferry those planes back home without manufacturer training pilots after learning the S.O.P.s of the manufacturer and moulding them into kenya airways' own S.O.P.s
Kenya Airways is now a developed airline by international standards...haven't you ever flown even as a passenger?We do not need foreign expertise to fly aeroplanes nowdays.It is not rocket science anymore..modern planes are even simpler to fly!Kenya Airways is not seeking Test Pilots...just line pilots in keeping with their fleet expansion...and there is no better place to recruit than its own home ground.To get the Kenyan pilot license is arguably much harder than F.A.A. or other ICAO license.I can contest that it is somewhat harder even than the J.A.A license due to, I concede, the african conundrum one has to adapt to enable things to work.The ATPL writtens are from JAA data bank, but no class prep and so by self study (the harder way).The GFT if done independently is a carbon copy of the old British CAA(arguably the highest standard in the past).So what have you got to treach us Kenyans Sir....I suggest not much more than manuals and present experience already can!
Thank you for your ounce of wisdom Sir!I have learn't something new today...
No one claimed explicitly what you quoted as above...hence the reason the word "training" keeps cropping up on this thread time and again.In Aviation the day you think you know it all is the day you should step down your airplane(and careful at that) and bid your final farewell.
To give your argument some benefit of doubt; skill transfer is not what Kenya Airways needs, it has plenty there-in from the decades of safe flying experience.I can count the number of accidents in its history since East African Airways...and it is less than my fingers.Consider that against the number of flights or number of passengers and cargo it has faithfully and safely transported over the same time frame!The kind of argument you are proposing qualified during the winds of change in the post colonial transition period..not any more.I have witnessed the standards at Kenya Airways.(take a peek at You tube also)They were born out of East African Airways, which was essentially a carbon copy of then BOAC (now B.A.) and those standards compare well to the best of airlines in the world.Visit the major Airlines in the gulf and you shall see that Kenyans, few as they may be,enjoy respectable positions.Enquire with Air Traffic Controllers world wide and you shall be given a commendable view on how Kenyan pilots deport themselves.Kenya is not a bannana republic my friend! It is why fussy KLM got married here!From KLM and the Sky team alliance there is a lot of culture transfer that is both good operationally, and commercially.What Kenya airways can benefit from experience, they are getting it from the manufacturers who sell their planes to Kenya airways additional to advice from their allies.Kenya is competent enough to ferry those planes back home without manufacturer training pilots after learning the S.O.P.s of the manufacturer and moulding them into kenya airways' own S.O.P.s
Kenya Airways is now a developed airline by international standards...haven't you ever flown even as a passenger?We do not need foreign expertise to fly aeroplanes nowdays.It is not rocket science anymore..modern planes are even simpler to fly!Kenya Airways is not seeking Test Pilots...just line pilots in keeping with their fleet expansion...and there is no better place to recruit than its own home ground.To get the Kenyan pilot license is arguably much harder than F.A.A. or other ICAO license.I can contest that it is somewhat harder even than the J.A.A license due to, I concede, the african conundrum one has to adapt to enable things to work.The ATPL writtens are from JAA data bank, but no class prep and so by self study (the harder way).The GFT if done independently is a carbon copy of the old British CAA(arguably the highest standard in the past).So what have you got to treach us Kenyans Sir....I suggest not much more than manuals and present experience already can!
