Is aviation in Africa really unsafe?
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DRPAM007,
Its so easy for you guys in Europe who happend to study Africa 101 history as a side course at university, to lay down moral issues in this regard.
For those of us who live and work in the real world we will pay the bribe every time.
Firstly because its been costed into the price of the flight/charter and secondly because its the only way you will get to leave the stinking sh1thole that is Kinshasa.
Its all very well calling in the moral high ground but when you are sitting with a plane load of pax waiting to go, what choice do you have.
You could play silly buggers all day by refusing the bribe and all that will happen is that you will have to spend the night in Kinshasa and end up paying the bribe the next day anyway, only with another day and nights worth of parking charges added to your bill, plus extra hotel accom etc etc and the fact that your client /pax will never use your company again.
Seriously DRPAM007, what would you do, who would you blow the whistle to?
Would you seriously make your flight/ pax sit there on the apron indefinately, while you attempt to claim a moral high ground.
The entire system is f@ked from the bottom to the top, the fact that you think that we should/could refuse the bribe shows that you are completely detached from the reality that is post colonial africa.
I look forward to your reply in this regard.
Its so easy for you guys in Europe who happend to study Africa 101 history as a side course at university, to lay down moral issues in this regard.
For those of us who live and work in the real world we will pay the bribe every time.
Firstly because its been costed into the price of the flight/charter and secondly because its the only way you will get to leave the stinking sh1thole that is Kinshasa.
Its all very well calling in the moral high ground but when you are sitting with a plane load of pax waiting to go, what choice do you have.
You could play silly buggers all day by refusing the bribe and all that will happen is that you will have to spend the night in Kinshasa and end up paying the bribe the next day anyway, only with another day and nights worth of parking charges added to your bill, plus extra hotel accom etc etc and the fact that your client /pax will never use your company again.
Seriously DRPAM007, what would you do, who would you blow the whistle to?
Would you seriously make your flight/ pax sit there on the apron indefinately, while you attempt to claim a moral high ground.
The entire system is f@ked from the bottom to the top, the fact that you think that we should/could refuse the bribe shows that you are completely detached from the reality that is post colonial africa.
I look forward to your reply in this regard.
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Max,
Granted people may not agree on a lot of issues, but that's necessary for the exchange of more robust ideas. However, it is highly regrettable and disappointing to hear a professional aviator make the above statement. This is a major causal factor in the poor safety record of the region.
Sorry Max, you are mistaken on this assumption. I'm sure you'll get your facts right in due course.
It appears the bribe was deliberately planned ahead of time. Amazing, but how does your flight expenses report coin this "slush fund" and is it tax deductible? Assuming tax is actually paid in the first place.
Are you giving bribes ( deciding to engage in a criminal and corrupt act) because:
@Darkroom
Precisely why Africa it is at the bottom of the food chain and still sinking. The more reason why there is need to oppose this regressive practice and change the status quo.
Is it not despicable to see supposedly decent and civilised individuals, corporations and even governments resort to fueling a culture of bribery and corruption in Africa because it suits their short term economic goals. Knowing fully well, it is counter productive to the efforts being made towards social and economic reforms within the polity. Obviously, when the system reaches saturation point and implodes in total anarchy, they just pick their ruck-sacks, turn their backs on the dark continent and head home. Leaving the locals to pick up the pieces.
The fact that every is doing it, does not make it right.
Just my two kobo worth.
For those of us who live and work in the real world we will pay the bribe every time.
Its so easy for you guys in Europe who happen to study Africa 101 history as a side course at university, to lay down moral issues in this regard.
Firstly because its been costed into the price of the flight/charter and secondly because its the only way you will get to leave the stinking sh1thole that is Kinshasa.
Are you giving bribes ( deciding to engage in a criminal and corrupt act) because:
- It's the easy way out.
- There's no other option; just following company SOPs.
- You'd rather no blow the whistle.
- You dont really give a damn about the far reaching effects as long as you do your job and get paid.
@Darkroom
This place does not do things the same way the rest of the world does them.
Is it not despicable to see supposedly decent and civilised individuals, corporations and even governments resort to fueling a culture of bribery and corruption in Africa because it suits their short term economic goals. Knowing fully well, it is counter productive to the efforts being made towards social and economic reforms within the polity. Obviously, when the system reaches saturation point and implodes in total anarchy, they just pick their ruck-sacks, turn their backs on the dark continent and head home. Leaving the locals to pick up the pieces.
The fact that every is doing it, does not make it right.
Just my two kobo worth.
Last edited by DRPAM007; 17th Sep 2011 at 01:31.
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DRPAM007,
Sir, you still avoid my question,
What would you do in that situation ??? Would you and your pax/aircraft sit indefinately on the tarmac waiting for what exactly to happen?
And following your very erudite and eloquent post , I still maintain that you are detached from the reality of working and living in Africa.
To follow your additional questions, I would not pay a bribe in Europe as there would be systems in place to prevent or report that.
Secondly, yes the bribe is planned ahead of time because it happens every time.
The company accountants are aware of this aspect of flying in Africa.
Yes Tax is paid by my company, bribes are not tax deductable however.
Not incompetant and inept governance then ??
Max
Sir, you still avoid my question,
What would you do in that situation ??? Would you and your pax/aircraft sit indefinately on the tarmac waiting for what exactly to happen?
And following your very erudite and eloquent post , I still maintain that you are detached from the reality of working and living in Africa.
To follow your additional questions, I would not pay a bribe in Europe as there would be systems in place to prevent or report that.
Secondly, yes the bribe is planned ahead of time because it happens every time.
The company accountants are aware of this aspect of flying in Africa.
Yes Tax is paid by my company, bribes are not tax deductable however.
This is a major causal factor in the poor safety record of the region.
Max
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What you are claiming now is that the ineptitude of African governments is "forcing" you into giving bribes? Please spare us all the rhetoric that this is against your will, while your accountants budget money for bribes!
just in case you feign ignorance, there exist a plethora of government, non-governmental and autonomous bodies that you are expected to report such inconsistencies to.
The CAA's for a start are there, Interpol, anti corruption agencies, transparency international, civil society legal, the press,etc. These have websites, email addresses and phone numbers all at your disposal. Just to humour those who claim there's no one to report to, take a small peek:
Organisations in sector - Anti-Corruption - General
However, you choose not to use them at all. The usual excuse is that " they are all corrupt, so we won't use them". My argument is that " they dont work because you dont use them."
Where on earth do we not have instances of corrupt politicians, police and judges? But people attempt to use all avenues to restore sanity rather join the fray of lawlessness. It is a disservice to humanity
Amazing, you patronize and dine with the crooks that subvert the system, while neglecting/avoiding the safeguards that have a chance of reforming/correcting the culture of corruption. Yet, you have the guts to complain about the corruption?
We"ve all done things we're ashamed of, let's humbly accept our culpability rather than justify any wrong doing.
just in case you feign ignorance, there exist a plethora of government, non-governmental and autonomous bodies that you are expected to report such inconsistencies to.
The CAA's for a start are there, Interpol, anti corruption agencies, transparency international, civil society legal, the press,etc. These have websites, email addresses and phone numbers all at your disposal. Just to humour those who claim there's no one to report to, take a small peek:
Organisations in sector - Anti-Corruption - General
However, you choose not to use them at all. The usual excuse is that " they are all corrupt, so we won't use them". My argument is that " they dont work because you dont use them."
Where on earth do we not have instances of corrupt politicians, police and judges? But people attempt to use all avenues to restore sanity rather join the fray of lawlessness. It is a disservice to humanity
Amazing, you patronize and dine with the crooks that subvert the system, while neglecting/avoiding the safeguards that have a chance of reforming/correcting the culture of corruption. Yet, you have the guts to complain about the corruption?
We"ve all done things we're ashamed of, let's humbly accept our culpability rather than justify any wrong doing.
Last edited by DRPAM007; 17th Sep 2011 at 11:35.
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Reality cheque please.
DRPAM 007
I make no excuses for bribing in Africa, its an unfortunate commercial reality in some post colonial african states, which no amount of liberal idealism and eurocentric hand-wringing, will make dissapear in the near future.
The reason no one reports it is because it wont make one iota of difference.
As for reporting it to the CAA, it is the CAA officials who are extorting the bribes in the first place.
...and then you are still avoiding my question.
What would you have done in the same situation, would you seriously make your well paying passengers sit and wait indefinately in your aircraft on the apron of some airport in the middle of BongBongo land, while you email a report off to some agency in Europe 5000 miles away, what do you honestly expect Interpol will be able to do about your situation right there and then????
And when your client requests to fly there again is your company seriously going to turn away a 200 thousand Euro charter flight , simply to avoid a 1000$ bribe, based on the ethereal moral high ground of one of its crew members??
Corruption is a commercial reality of african aviation. It doesnt mean that I like it or agree with it but it is the reality.
Max
I make no excuses for bribing in Africa, its an unfortunate commercial reality in some post colonial african states, which no amount of liberal idealism and eurocentric hand-wringing, will make dissapear in the near future.
The reason no one reports it is because it wont make one iota of difference.
As for reporting it to the CAA, it is the CAA officials who are extorting the bribes in the first place.
...and then you are still avoiding my question.
What would you have done in the same situation, would you seriously make your well paying passengers sit and wait indefinately in your aircraft on the apron of some airport in the middle of BongBongo land, while you email a report off to some agency in Europe 5000 miles away, what do you honestly expect Interpol will be able to do about your situation right there and then????
And when your client requests to fly there again is your company seriously going to turn away a 200 thousand Euro charter flight , simply to avoid a 1000$ bribe, based on the ethereal moral high ground of one of its crew members??
Corruption is a commercial reality of african aviation. It doesnt mean that I like it or agree with it but it is the reality.
Max
Last edited by maxrated; 18th Sep 2011 at 17:09.
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To bribe or not to bribe.....
Hello Max,
With regards to your question
I assume you are a rational adult man who probably has a family you're raising. What would you advice your kids to do, if you found out they have had daily surrender part of their lunch to the class bully in order to avoid conflict?
Your answer should be good enough for me.
I know you're trying to make a living or probably part of the management of your outfit. Some day you'll probably retire, spend all your money, or give it away and have time the to reflect on your decisions/actions and the impact of those little actions on the lives of others; whether, you could have acted differently, if it was worth it? etc.There may be extraneous circumstances ; e.g. evacuating an sick passenger, that may have required paying the bribe to avoid unnecessary delays in order save a life. However, deciding not to report this crime, coupled with your resolve in your earlier post that " you'll pay the bribe every time" gives it an entirely new alarming perspective.
For now, I'll leave with these words credited to Martin Luther King jnr:
"Cowardice asks the question - is it safe (can I get away with it)?
Expediency asks the question - is it politic?
Vanity asks the question - is it popular?
But conscience asks the question - is it right?
And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular; but one must take it because it is right."
Best regards.
DR
With regards to your question
What would you have done in the same situation, would you seriously make your well paying passengers sit and wait indefinately in your aircraft on the apron of some airport in the middle of BongBongo land, while you email a report off to some agency in Europe 5000 miles away, what do you honestly expect Interpol will be able to do about your situation right there and then????
And when your client requests to fly there again is your company seriously going to turn away a 200 thousand Euro charter flight , simply to avoid a 1000$ bribe, based on the ethereal moral high ground of one of its crew members??
And when your client requests to fly there again is your company seriously going to turn away a 200 thousand Euro charter flight , simply to avoid a 1000$ bribe, based on the ethereal moral high ground of one of its crew members??
Your answer should be good enough for me.
I know you're trying to make a living or probably part of the management of your outfit. Some day you'll probably retire, spend all your money, or give it away and have time the to reflect on your decisions/actions and the impact of those little actions on the lives of others; whether, you could have acted differently, if it was worth it? etc.There may be extraneous circumstances ; e.g. evacuating an sick passenger, that may have required paying the bribe to avoid unnecessary delays in order save a life. However, deciding not to report this crime, coupled with your resolve in your earlier post that " you'll pay the bribe every time" gives it an entirely new alarming perspective.
For now, I'll leave with these words credited to Martin Luther King jnr:
"Cowardice asks the question - is it safe (can I get away with it)?
Expediency asks the question - is it politic?
Vanity asks the question - is it popular?
But conscience asks the question - is it right?
And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular; but one must take it because it is right."
Best regards.
DR
Last edited by DRPAM007; 20th Sep 2011 at 01:00.
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@DRPAM007
Just waiting to hear from you as to the results of not paying the bribe...
let us know how it goes... (if you can)
We'll all follow your lead...
Just waiting to hear from you as to the results of not paying the bribe...
let us know how it goes... (if you can)
We'll all follow your lead...
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I like occasionally dropping in on the Africa pprune thread to see how things are now days, been a few years since I worked there but DRPAM007, wow. Have you worked in Africa?
Expatriate life is a very real chance in the world of Aviation and like any good expat you should obey the customs of the land. Agree with it or disagree is no skin of my, your colleagues, your boss or even the locals themselves. Because you do it and do not try to impose a western morality where it is not asked.
maxrated has a brilliant point - stinking hot day, pax loaded, doors ready to close and a boss who needs his plane in a certain place at a certain time. Are you going to fold your arms and say "no - this is against what I feel is right for this country?" all the while there are locals working on the ramp trying to make their own living waiting for the cash which they might have a pick of to put the food on their families tables after the bosses have their share.
In Afica you might call it a bribe. In RPT ops in the western world to the bosses of Airports, Airlines and politicians down to the guys fueling your plane it is called incentive or bonus.
Get your boots dirty there, see how little they live off - can't blame them for trying to improve that.
All the best,
BD
Expatriate life is a very real chance in the world of Aviation and like any good expat you should obey the customs of the land. Agree with it or disagree is no skin of my, your colleagues, your boss or even the locals themselves. Because you do it and do not try to impose a western morality where it is not asked.
maxrated has a brilliant point - stinking hot day, pax loaded, doors ready to close and a boss who needs his plane in a certain place at a certain time. Are you going to fold your arms and say "no - this is against what I feel is right for this country?" all the while there are locals working on the ramp trying to make their own living waiting for the cash which they might have a pick of to put the food on their families tables after the bosses have their share.
In Afica you might call it a bribe. In RPT ops in the western world to the bosses of Airports, Airlines and politicians down to the guys fueling your plane it is called incentive or bonus.
Get your boots dirty there, see how little they live off - can't blame them for trying to improve that.
All the best,
BD
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Hi Guys,
Just in case there's some misconception that I'm an expatriate looking at an idealistic and remote view of Africa. I am an African, lived there for over 38 years and worked in aviation there for over 18 years. All my aviation training was funded by Africa and most of it took place there. I have very strong ties there irrespective of any other nationalities that may be attributed to me. So its safe to say that I have some perspectives of both worlds. I may wish to add that I have had some level of experience in the social and professional politics some part of Africa.
In a nutshell "lawlessness fueled by corruption" is what has caused Africa to regress in the past 20 year. Therefore I make no apologies for wanting to see this practice stamped out of the polity. Idealist view; all morality is idealist. I've seen the effect of active and subtle bribery in every sphere of influence; from top government, law enforcement, multi-national corporations like Shell, judiciary, to even office clerks where your license renewal files seem to disappear but a bribe performs the miracle of teleportation from what ever planet it had hitherto gone. We've had Pilots flying with expired licenses.And even a group of Pilots rather than go to the US for simulator re-currency holed themselves in a nice remote hotel for 5 days with the Check pilot and conjured up fictitious re-currency documents while lounging by the pool and got their licenses renewed until of course the cat got out of the bag. I'll not bore you with the extent of the rot. The boundary is pushed when people feel they can get away with it.
I put it that you expats are the ones detached from the reality of things in Africa. You are insulated from it because you have other options; Plans A, B and C; Africa is just your plan D. Expats live in Africa as kings, give or take minor inconveniences, but there are those whose only future lies in Africa.
What you dont know is that not all the local can afford the bribes. The condition becomes more precarious because those who can afford the bribes get their way and those who cant.....?
I ask of you gentlemen who seem to think placating the system by engaging in the vice that is threatening the future of this continent;
@darkroomsource
we all have the propensity for profanities, but not all of us should degrade ourselves to use them.
Best regards.
Just in case there's some misconception that I'm an expatriate looking at an idealistic and remote view of Africa. I am an African, lived there for over 38 years and worked in aviation there for over 18 years. All my aviation training was funded by Africa and most of it took place there. I have very strong ties there irrespective of any other nationalities that may be attributed to me. So its safe to say that I have some perspectives of both worlds. I may wish to add that I have had some level of experience in the social and professional politics some part of Africa.
In a nutshell "lawlessness fueled by corruption" is what has caused Africa to regress in the past 20 year. Therefore I make no apologies for wanting to see this practice stamped out of the polity. Idealist view; all morality is idealist. I've seen the effect of active and subtle bribery in every sphere of influence; from top government, law enforcement, multi-national corporations like Shell, judiciary, to even office clerks where your license renewal files seem to disappear but a bribe performs the miracle of teleportation from what ever planet it had hitherto gone. We've had Pilots flying with expired licenses.And even a group of Pilots rather than go to the US for simulator re-currency holed themselves in a nice remote hotel for 5 days with the Check pilot and conjured up fictitious re-currency documents while lounging by the pool and got their licenses renewed until of course the cat got out of the bag. I'll not bore you with the extent of the rot. The boundary is pushed when people feel they can get away with it.
I put it that you expats are the ones detached from the reality of things in Africa. You are insulated from it because you have other options; Plans A, B and C; Africa is just your plan D. Expats live in Africa as kings, give or take minor inconveniences, but there are those whose only future lies in Africa.
What you dont know is that not all the local can afford the bribes. The condition becomes more precarious because those who can afford the bribes get their way and those who cant.....?
I ask of you gentlemen who seem to think placating the system by engaging in the vice that is threatening the future of this continent;
- Should Africa have a different moral code from the rest of the world?
- Is there any way participating in the bribe culture is helping Africa?
@darkroomsource
we all have the propensity for profanities, but not all of us should degrade ourselves to use them.
Best regards.
What is the greater crime in Africa?
1. Demanding a bribe with menace; or
2. Paying a bribe to avoid such menace and to achieve a safe outcome?
Is a donkey in uniform worse than a despot dictator?
1. Demanding a bribe with menace; or
2. Paying a bribe to avoid such menace and to achieve a safe outcome?
Is a donkey in uniform worse than a despot dictator?
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The experience in politics makes sense with your posts now as you twist and deflect any of the hard questions away from you.
You still haven't answered the question as to what you would do, given the situation you are faced. Your passports are taken, and you have a plane load of pax sitting on the tarmac with your boss breathing down your neck.
Its not just in Africa where you find yourself in these situations. It is in all the poor middle eastern to old eastern block european countries.
The main word there is being poor.
These people get into positions of power and abuse it. Your reference before to your kid and a bully. It's not just any bully. Its the principal thats asking you for your money.
Who do you go to then?
The state controlled press? Key word, state controlled.
The police? They will want a bribe before they do anything? If you don't bribe them, the people in question will bribe them for this to go away.
The office of the president? He's bribed his way to the top anyway. You are trying to put away people who got him to where he was anyway. You are an white expat in the country, these are his countrymen. What do you think will happen?
Interpol? Ok... sure. Lets see how far that will get you. Go and talk to uncle Bob and see what response you get from him when a foriegn country tries to exert any influence on them.
What can WE do about it as pilots? Basically the simple answer is to not come here at all.
What can WE do to stay safe? That comes down to you as a pilot in command. You make it as safe as you want it to be.
The bribes will only get you airborne, therefore not the dangerous part. How you remain in the air is up to you.
Stupidly overloaded? Say No until within limits.
Thunderstorm over the field? Hold or Divert.
Not rated on the aircraft? Don't fly it.
Navaids not working in IMC? Divert.
It might work out 99 times out of 100 when you push the limits. It only takes that 1 time to catch you out and you pay the ultimate price.
As for the bribery... the only way you can fix that will be to raise every person in that country out of the need to do it to survive. I wish you well on that endevour.
You still haven't answered the question as to what you would do, given the situation you are faced. Your passports are taken, and you have a plane load of pax sitting on the tarmac with your boss breathing down your neck.
Its not just in Africa where you find yourself in these situations. It is in all the poor middle eastern to old eastern block european countries.
The main word there is being poor.
These people get into positions of power and abuse it. Your reference before to your kid and a bully. It's not just any bully. Its the principal thats asking you for your money.
Who do you go to then?
The state controlled press? Key word, state controlled.
The police? They will want a bribe before they do anything? If you don't bribe them, the people in question will bribe them for this to go away.
The office of the president? He's bribed his way to the top anyway. You are trying to put away people who got him to where he was anyway. You are an white expat in the country, these are his countrymen. What do you think will happen?
Interpol? Ok... sure. Lets see how far that will get you. Go and talk to uncle Bob and see what response you get from him when a foriegn country tries to exert any influence on them.
What can WE do about it as pilots? Basically the simple answer is to not come here at all.
What can WE do to stay safe? That comes down to you as a pilot in command. You make it as safe as you want it to be.
The bribes will only get you airborne, therefore not the dangerous part. How you remain in the air is up to you.
Stupidly overloaded? Say No until within limits.
Thunderstorm over the field? Hold or Divert.
Not rated on the aircraft? Don't fly it.
Navaids not working in IMC? Divert.
It might work out 99 times out of 100 when you push the limits. It only takes that 1 time to catch you out and you pay the ultimate price.
As for the bribery... the only way you can fix that will be to raise every person in that country out of the need to do it to survive. I wish you well on that endevour.
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Good words and fairly said I have to add.
Not just Pilots, but all humans have to make a judgement call one time or the other. If you read my post of 19th 15:50
I believe it answers the question. Everyone is at liberty do determine what amounts to compelling circumstances. My concern is the lack of moral responsibility to accept that it is not right; and Should be reported to the responsible authorities in order redress the situation. I dont blame those who have no confidence in the anti-corruption as long as they blow to the whistle to what/who they consider a suitable alternative, even if it based in the western world. Going with flow just makes the corrupt officials more daring. The gang may even decide to approach top management and ask for the bribes to be paid in advance so they can call off the "tarmac dogs" and nicely conceal the mafia style operation from the anti corruption machinery. Like Max advocated for small steps in achieving safety, I believe we also need small individual steps to oppose corruption.
You are right that poverty is a factor but the major drivers are greed moral bankruptcy.
Not just Pilots, but all humans have to make a judgement call one time or the other. If you read my post of 19th 15:50
There may be extraneous circumstances ; e.g. evacuating an sick passenger, that may have required paying the bribe to avoid unnecessary delays in order save a life. However, deciding not to report this crime, coupled with your resolve in your earlier post that " you'll pay the bribe every time" gives it an entirely new alarming perspective.
You are right that poverty is a factor but the major drivers are greed moral bankruptcy.