Watch Out For African Atc's
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: RANDBURG
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Watch Out For African Atc's
Flew from Kinshasa to Lubumbashi yesterday and on the approach to rwy 07, the ATC told us ''wind calm". All the way down on final, our FMS wind was indicating about 300/25-30 and the aircraft handling (severe drift and turbulence) on final confirmed this. There was no doubt during the touchdown that we were landing with a strong crosswind/tailwind (10-15 knots at least) and this was confirmed by the movement of the bushes next to the runway.
About an hour earlier, another of our aircraft from Johannesburg had experienced something similar except that they ended up landing with an even stronger tailwind component, after being given "wind calm" by the ATC.
While completing our turnaround, an Ethiopian 737 landed on rwy 07, after also being given "wind calm" by the ATC. However, the wind was not calm but was, in fact, the strong tailwind experienced earlier, unbeknown to the Ethiopia pilots. End result.......they finished up with the nosewheel buried in the soft ground 4 or 5 metres past the end of the runway - VERY soft ground after recent heavy rains.
A little later, there followed some very heated exchanges between ATC and the 3 aircraft who were all still on the frequency. ATC was sticking to his "calm wind" story and was determined to defend himself and his future career as an ATC. None of us were buying his story, needless to say. However, try in English to get through to an ATC whose first language is ??? and whose second language is French and you're fighting a losing battle. They're "OK-ish" (well, sort of) as long as they're reciting their ATC phraseology parrot fashion but try to engage them in a "conversation"......
No doubt, two hazard reports and one accident/incident report will be filed (I've already filed my hazard report) but I won't be holding my breath waiting for an enquiry and, even less, any result of the enquiry.
About an hour earlier, another of our aircraft from Johannesburg had experienced something similar except that they ended up landing with an even stronger tailwind component, after being given "wind calm" by the ATC.
While completing our turnaround, an Ethiopian 737 landed on rwy 07, after also being given "wind calm" by the ATC. However, the wind was not calm but was, in fact, the strong tailwind experienced earlier, unbeknown to the Ethiopia pilots. End result.......they finished up with the nosewheel buried in the soft ground 4 or 5 metres past the end of the runway - VERY soft ground after recent heavy rains.
A little later, there followed some very heated exchanges between ATC and the 3 aircraft who were all still on the frequency. ATC was sticking to his "calm wind" story and was determined to defend himself and his future career as an ATC. None of us were buying his story, needless to say. However, try in English to get through to an ATC whose first language is ??? and whose second language is French and you're fighting a losing battle. They're "OK-ish" (well, sort of) as long as they're reciting their ATC phraseology parrot fashion but try to engage them in a "conversation"......
No doubt, two hazard reports and one accident/incident report will be filed (I've already filed my hazard report) but I won't be holding my breath waiting for an enquiry and, even less, any result of the enquiry.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Dark side of the moon
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I always find it best to use a bit of caution when listening to ATC. Some of the lads are on the ball. And some you wonder how they manage to find their way home at the end of the day.
But one must also remember the mentality in some places where free thought is discouraged right from primary school, learning by rote and not upsetting the apple cart. So if his 30 year old wind indicator says it's calm, well then it must be true, after all he is on the ground
But one must also remember the mentality in some places where free thought is discouraged right from primary school, learning by rote and not upsetting the apple cart. So if his 30 year old wind indicator says it's calm, well then it must be true, after all he is on the ground
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Arroyo
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Here and There
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dont pass the buck
I find it quite strange the title of your post as this has happened to me in all parts of the world, but at the end of the day the responsibility is solely yours. If you have equipment on board informing you about the winds as you stated in your post and you choose to exceed your tail-wind limitations then I think the problem is yours. After you landed obviously you did not give a pilots report as you stated other a/c landed after you and almost overran. Brother's keeper
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SA
Age: 40
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BEEDEE first time flying in darkest Africa?
Have heard and seen that kind of thing going on all over this wonderful continent of ours! Unfortunately when flying around up there (North of SA borders), you need to help the controllers out, and never take what they say to be the truth!
Have heard and seen that kind of thing going on all over this wonderful continent of ours! Unfortunately when flying around up there (North of SA borders), you need to help the controllers out, and never take what they say to be the truth!
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's also a wind sock in the grassy area between the ITAB hangar and the passenger terminal building. Would have been off your left as you landed on runway 7.
Fortunately your landing worked out alright - imagine how it would've felt to explain to your CP that you overshot like the Ethiopian B737 after having flight data saying you were landing with a strong tailwind. It is Congo.....
Fortunately your landing worked out alright - imagine how it would've felt to explain to your CP that you overshot like the Ethiopian B737 after having flight data saying you were landing with a strong tailwind. It is Congo.....
Last edited by JTrain; 23rd Feb 2010 at 13:27.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I agree to what most people have posted so far. You say you even noticed the tailwind during the approach (high sinkrate during the finals while staying on the GS or PAPI's).
So why didn't you go around?
Supposing, in a different scenario, the surface wind would have been correct, but you encountered unpredictive windshear, what would you have done then?
ATC screwed up, no doubt. But you know that in certain areas of the world the safety-standards, the training standards, the infrastructure and so on, are extremely bad. Even if this has been your first flight into that particular field, you should have been prepared for this sort of thing. Didn't you get a briefing or do a self-familiarization before your flight?
So of course you can be angry at the stupid controller who was sitting on his tower, operating a 40-year old radio and little other functioning equipment, who doesn't speak proper English nor has he been properly trained. But in the end, it was you who was flying the plane, and you have only to blame yourself for forcing the landing.
Like you already said - your report will change absolutely nothing at all. It's Africa. You will see things like this happening all the time. Be happy your plane stayed on the runway, and think again about what has happened.
So why didn't you go around?
Supposing, in a different scenario, the surface wind would have been correct, but you encountered unpredictive windshear, what would you have done then?
ATC screwed up, no doubt. But you know that in certain areas of the world the safety-standards, the training standards, the infrastructure and so on, are extremely bad. Even if this has been your first flight into that particular field, you should have been prepared for this sort of thing. Didn't you get a briefing or do a self-familiarization before your flight?
So of course you can be angry at the stupid controller who was sitting on his tower, operating a 40-year old radio and little other functioning equipment, who doesn't speak proper English nor has he been properly trained. But in the end, it was you who was flying the plane, and you have only to blame yourself for forcing the landing.
Like you already said - your report will change absolutely nothing at all. It's Africa. You will see things like this happening all the time. Be happy your plane stayed on the runway, and think again about what has happened.
Last edited by Nightfire; 23rd Feb 2010 at 14:28.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: R.S.A.
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Point taken about decision making,but when is an ATC not an ATC? Can these people not just go home and leave these airports unmanned?This would certainly place the onus on the pilot, which it does in any case, and there would be no discussions about bad ATC in Africa, cos there is none, as is also the case anyway. In Africa we are getting way too used to non-delivery of services, of what ever nature, and the fault will always lie with you, no-matter who you are. Save some cash, and worries about having to think about wether ATC is with it or not,and back to basics, decision-making in an uncontrolled environment.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: europe
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beedee maybe familiarise yourself with the "you know you are in afica when" thread, without the benefit of a catholic flying experience to date it might help fill in some of the gaps .
.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The frequency jungle
Posts: 975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
poljot
I think you mean Überlingen. The accident at Würenlingen had nothing to do with ATC.
As to the non-delivery of service on the continent (north of the Limpopo LightHorse): Its all about training, education, more training, proper equipment etc. Some of those guys have probably never done any official training and been doing the same job for many years without any outside input. I doubt it will get better any time soon and I am also of the opinion that some places would probably be safer without the uneducated ATCO's interference.
I think you mean Überlingen. The accident at Würenlingen had nothing to do with ATC.
As to the non-delivery of service on the continent (north of the Limpopo LightHorse): Its all about training, education, more training, proper equipment etc. Some of those guys have probably never done any official training and been doing the same job for many years without any outside input. I doubt it will get better any time soon and I am also of the opinion that some places would probably be safer without the uneducated ATCO's interference.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Pointy End
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you will probably find that the ATC anemometer is broken so the gauge in the tower constantly reads calm, even in a mini tornado. I had a very similar experience in Islamabad in Pakistan and mentioned it to the ATC guy after landing, by the time we went to depart in approx 1 hr the problem was solved.
I do agree with the principle that the buck does stop in the LHS, everyone else is there to help, but in the end you captain, make the call. Sometimes ATC can be more of a hinderance then assistance, so it is up to the commander to decide and act accordingly.
I do agree with the principle that the buck does stop in the LHS, everyone else is there to help, but in the end you captain, make the call. Sometimes ATC can be more of a hinderance then assistance, so it is up to the commander to decide and act accordingly.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: A few degrees South
Posts: 809
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you can see the wind, where is the problem? Africa will teach you how to fly very quickly, in general. If 10 kt wind from the rear, or 15 from the side poses you a problem, you have to go back to basics. Ask the C206 or Caravan pilots. If you want to fly by the book, stay out of Africa. Pilotage is a skill which has to develop rather swiftly in Africa, or you end up dead.
Glad I did it. Tremendous experience.
Glad I did it. Tremendous experience.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Canada
Age: 54
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dont agree that its always prudent to rely on FMS info only regarding tailwinds on short final.
Any FMS/FMC takes a while to update its position and speed info regardless of whether its using GPS, DME, VOR, INS or a combination of those for its position info.
The case i am referring to is Bloenfontein RWY 20.
In the winter months the wind on the ground is usually calm or even light from the North as per the reliable info given by the ATC's in Bloem.
There is usually a strong inversion at around 1000ft AGL with the associated wind shift.
Typically on final approach to RWY 20 the FMS indicates a 10-20 knot tailwind right down to touchdown, which simply is not the case.
I dont believe we should be doing go arounds on every second approach because of the FMS tailwind info. It simly does not update that quickly.
Fortunately in Bloem we have good reliable ATC's whose info is spot on.
I guess in Africa its prudent to use all info sources to make the right descision. FMS, ATC, smoke on the ground if it's visual, other pilots reports and your general gut feel.
Lubumbashi like many other airports north of the Limpopo will always be a challenge.
Good Luck
Any FMS/FMC takes a while to update its position and speed info regardless of whether its using GPS, DME, VOR, INS or a combination of those for its position info.
The case i am referring to is Bloenfontein RWY 20.
In the winter months the wind on the ground is usually calm or even light from the North as per the reliable info given by the ATC's in Bloem.
There is usually a strong inversion at around 1000ft AGL with the associated wind shift.
Typically on final approach to RWY 20 the FMS indicates a 10-20 knot tailwind right down to touchdown, which simply is not the case.
I dont believe we should be doing go arounds on every second approach because of the FMS tailwind info. It simly does not update that quickly.
Fortunately in Bloem we have good reliable ATC's whose info is spot on.
I guess in Africa its prudent to use all info sources to make the right descision. FMS, ATC, smoke on the ground if it's visual, other pilots reports and your general gut feel.
Lubumbashi like many other airports north of the Limpopo will always be a challenge.
Good Luck