FACT Go-Around
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: close
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FACT Go-Around
SAA go around this morning at FACT. PIC tells pax on PA that there was another acft on the RWY - there wasn't - was a pilot initiated go-around due to it being an "unstable approach".
Why would the PIC blame it on the ATC when the ATC had nothing to do with it?
Why would the PIC blame it on the ATC when the ATC had nothing to do with it?
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where you sitting in the Cockpit with the crew at the time ? If not, how do you know if there was an obstruction or not ? The other aircraft might have been off the runway already (or a chopper was crossing nearby giving them a TCAS warning) before you could see anything but by then the pilot already made the decision to go-around (pilots actually make this decision and commiting to land quite a number of seconds before reaching the thresold) and even then it is not the ATC to blame - sometimes it takes longer to vacate than it was anticipated or the pilots did not accept a reduced seperation landing.
Whatever the pilot tells the pax, in this case does not make a difference in their lives, nor does he have to justify the go-around, so if he gave a false reason, I agree that he might as well tell the true reason if anything at all. Why don´t you find out who it was and ask him ? lol
Whatever the pilot tells the pax, in this case does not make a difference in their lives, nor does he have to justify the go-around, so if he gave a false reason, I agree that he might as well tell the true reason if anything at all. Why don´t you find out who it was and ask him ? lol
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess it sounds better than him telling the pax that he flew an unstable approach and was about to screw up the landing!
Pax would not know / understand that it was an ATC problem (though it wasn't anyway) as they are not clever enough for that
I'm sure he did not aim his comment at you as an ATC
Pax would not know / understand that it was an ATC problem (though it wasn't anyway) as they are not clever enough for that
I'm sure he did not aim his comment at you as an ATC
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Republic
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They did a go-around yesterday morning in Cape Town as well - for an unstable approach.
As much as I sit back and think ha ha
you guys stroked the cat - I sit back and realise that I have come close too - often
.
Isn't that the challenge - to keep the speed up and still be in the slot.
The go-around shows that professional aviation still exists within that and other companies within South Africa.
As much as I sit back and think ha ha
you guys stroked the cat - I sit back and realise that I have come close too - often. Isn't that the challenge - to keep the speed up and still be in the slot.
The go-around shows that professional aviation still exists within that and other companies within South Africa.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bethesda, MD
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Ladies and gentlemen this is your captain speaking. We just missed the runway. We have to turn around and try finding it again. ATC gave us wrong directions. Have a pleasant flight!" lol
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Here and there...
Age: 58
Posts: 854
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pax would not know / understand that it was an ATC problem (though it wasn't anyway) as they are not clever enough for that
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: The World, although sometimes I wonder
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If all else fails, blame someone else.
Interesting how many go-arounds are now happening because of unstable approaches. Rather blame ATC.
However what the clever pilot does now know is that a FULL report goes to the CAA and it is investigated. Invariably the capt is the one that gets to have tea with the boss.
Of course if we hear comments like this about blaming the ATC, a further report goes to CAA. MMMM capt me thinks you better start thinking what u gonna say to the boss...
Reminds me of the situation the other day where someone decided on his own initiative to do a 360 on final, when the zone was IMC, cloud base of 1000ft, because he was unstable and told ATC he was just "sommer doing a 360!!!" Never mind the company traffic 6 miles behind him on the ILS in IMC.... Interesing situation that one. What ever happened to "in the event of a go-around, follow the publish MAP......"
OH well it takes all types to make the world go around.
See you next sat at the STAMMTISCH
Interesting how many go-arounds are now happening because of unstable approaches. Rather blame ATC.
However what the clever pilot does now know is that a FULL report goes to the CAA and it is investigated. Invariably the capt is the one that gets to have tea with the boss.
Of course if we hear comments like this about blaming the ATC, a further report goes to CAA. MMMM capt me thinks you better start thinking what u gonna say to the boss...
Reminds me of the situation the other day where someone decided on his own initiative to do a 360 on final, when the zone was IMC, cloud base of 1000ft, because he was unstable and told ATC he was just "sommer doing a 360!!!" Never mind the company traffic 6 miles behind him on the ILS in IMC.... Interesing situation that one. What ever happened to "in the event of a go-around, follow the publish MAP......"
OH well it takes all types to make the world go around.
See you next sat at the STAMMTISCH
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: RSA
Age: 57
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I must admit, that I usually just watch and read, but this last post shows a poor understanding of why go-arounds are flown due to unstable approaches. A "FULL" report may go to CAA for go-arounds to be investigated, but this should not lead to tea with the boss. A go-around for an unstable approach is a safety conscious move. To continue below the height designated by the company as their cutoff for a stable approach shows more poor judgement than the possible poor judgement that caused the crew to be unstable in the first place. It could also be argued that to continue the approach while unstable, and incontravention of the airline's rules, is wilful negligence of SOPS/NOPS.
This is a basic principle of ALARs: not stable, go-around and try again.
More go-arounds will be flown during the summer months due to windshear, wind changes, tail winds on finals as well as the normal speed/altitude restrictions from ATC.
Having said that I believe that when we cock it up we should admit that. What's the big deal?
But if I have made the decision to go-around it's a professional decision that is backed up by my airline. No report needs to be filed by me to my boss because of a "SAFETY" decision that's made. And there is no tea.
This is a basic principle of ALARs: not stable, go-around and try again.
More go-arounds will be flown during the summer months due to windshear, wind changes, tail winds on finals as well as the normal speed/altitude restrictions from ATC.
Having said that I believe that when we cock it up we should admit that. What's the big deal?
But if I have made the decision to go-around it's a professional decision that is backed up by my airline. No report needs to be filed by me to my boss because of a "SAFETY" decision that's made. And there is no tea.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South Africa
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think this thread is being misinterpreted. The remark here is not about the actual go-around but who took responsibility for it in the eyes of the passengers.
People like Jetpark who think pilots are generally more intelligent than the average Joe are the ones who have difficulty in taking responsibility for incidents such as the one in question. CRM is tailor made for you mate!
People like Jetpark who think pilots are generally more intelligent than the average Joe are the ones who have difficulty in taking responsibility for incidents such as the one in question. CRM is tailor made for you mate!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: South Africa
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree with misway. A go-around is performed for safety reasons. I fail to see how threatening people with a CAA investigation in the event of a go-around is conducive to safety. Both pilots and ATC will make mistakes every now and then. I'm sure most of us can easily recall examples of both. Live and let live! Imagine the actual investigation if an unstable approach is continued and results in a mishap. Get real!
On a side note, I understand that ego's will be hurt if the wrong parties are blamed. But honestly, go-arounds are frightening for the pax. What would be more reassuring them? - We are going around due to traffic reasons or we are going around because the aircraft was UNSTABLE? I can just hear the horror stories now... If the PIC is able to maintain a sense of calm in the cabin by adjusting the truth, well then so be it. The last thing aviation needs now is more sensationalised stories in newspapers of passengers in "near-death emergencies."
On a side note, I understand that ego's will be hurt if the wrong parties are blamed. But honestly, go-arounds are frightening for the pax. What would be more reassuring them? - We are going around due to traffic reasons or we are going around because the aircraft was UNSTABLE? I can just hear the horror stories now... If the PIC is able to maintain a sense of calm in the cabin by adjusting the truth, well then so be it. The last thing aviation needs now is more sensationalised stories in newspapers of passengers in "near-death emergencies."
Last edited by bosbok; 22nd Nov 2008 at 08:06.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bethesda, MD
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Telling the pax there's an aircraft on the runway doesnt mean its ATC's fault. Check this out and tell me what you think. The a/c thats forced to go around, had it been commercial, what would you tell pax? YouTube - ATC@FRG - "77F get off the rwy!" (by aldo benitez)
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.
I agree wiff the Oom - the point was not the go around, but the blaming it on someone else.
Boskok - "...that ego's will be hurt if the wrong parties are blamed..."
It's really not about egos here - I just find it a little unsettling when we as ATC's must take a call from one of the passengers who were on board said a/c and being asked point blank, "Are you ATC's fast asleep or what!? I didn't take the call but was standing right next to the Controller who did.
Tea or no tea - this has been reported to the CAA and we will follow it up.
Your "not clever enough to be a pilot" PAX in the rear will almost always include some spotter who survive off "..sensationalised stories in newspapers of passengers in "near-death emergencies.."
If blame must be allocated so as to not hurt your own ego, then blame it on the wind, the moon or the stars - not ATC!
Boskok - "...that ego's will be hurt if the wrong parties are blamed..."
It's really not about egos here - I just find it a little unsettling when we as ATC's must take a call from one of the passengers who were on board said a/c and being asked point blank, "Are you ATC's fast asleep or what!? I didn't take the call but was standing right next to the Controller who did.
Tea or no tea - this has been reported to the CAA and we will follow it up.
Your "not clever enough to be a pilot" PAX in the rear will almost always include some spotter who survive off "..sensationalised stories in newspapers of passengers in "near-death emergencies.."
If blame must be allocated so as to not hurt your own ego, then blame it on the wind, the moon or the stars - not ATC!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bethesda, MD
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just like to say to all ATC out there. Y'all do a fantastic job. We appreciate it. I know I wouldn't survive a day doing what you do. YouTube - Air Traffic Control Pissed at Air China 981
YouTube - Funny ATC conversations
YouTube - Funny ATC conversations