Change at SAA
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Simply wrong!
the issue of SAA having an unfair advantage
This has nothing to do with who farted first!
Immagine what Comair, 1Time or Airlink could have done with that kind of money...
What is rather annoying is the arrogance of the people that get their salary payed by the taxpayers of SA(this includes all the pilots from the competition!) and still insist that SAA is doing well and deserves all the rights.
Hey, if you rake it in, god bless you, but don't loos your sense of reality!
Keep always in mind, you are living on borrowed time (borrowed from your fellow pilots that work for money making companies and who pay for you with their lower salaries!)
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Having heard the tiresome "Bun Fights" about Taxpayers rights and not, I thought the detail below would put everything into perspective.
Thereafter it is up to each individual (SAA and non SAA) to make his/her own assumptions with regards to "who" pays for what at SAA.
SARS Income during 2006-2007 Financials (paid to date): R 493bn
PAYE Contributions to R 493bn total: R140bn (28.39%)
(If you want the figures for 2007-2008, do your own search...)
Company Contributors: 1 Million Companies
Self Employed Individuals: 350 000 People
PAYE Contributors: 6 Million People
Assumptions made (for Statistical purposes):
SAA Bailout at average of R 3.5bn per Financial Year
All PAYE Contributors footing an equal share of the Bailout (I know this is Theoretical)
PAYE Individual Contribution to SAA yearly Bailout: R 165.61
Thereafter it is up to each individual (SAA and non SAA) to make his/her own assumptions with regards to "who" pays for what at SAA.
SARS Income during 2006-2007 Financials (paid to date): R 493bn
PAYE Contributions to R 493bn total: R140bn (28.39%)
(If you want the figures for 2007-2008, do your own search...)
Company Contributors: 1 Million Companies
Self Employed Individuals: 350 000 People
PAYE Contributors: 6 Million People
Assumptions made (for Statistical purposes):
SAA Bailout at average of R 3.5bn per Financial Year
All PAYE Contributors footing an equal share of the Bailout (I know this is Theoretical)
PAYE Individual Contribution to SAA yearly Bailout: R 165.61
What is rather annoying is the arrogance of the people that get their salary payed by the taxpayers of SA(this includes all the pilots from the competition!)
Considering the fact that whether we like it or not, SAA forms an integral part of the South African Infrastructure, if as a Taxpayer a drop of my money must be used to fund it - then atleast let it be on a "Flag Carrier" rather than a British Flag carrying Franchise, for example.
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I'm sure the ex SunAir crew and possibly Nationwide feel they may still have been around had SAA (and SAX) not had this economic edge.
Maybe we should not bite the hand that feeds us....just a thought.
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....as a Taxpayer a drop of my money must be used to fund it - then atleast let it be on a "Flag Carrier" rather than a British Flag carrying Franchise, for example.
Using the argument that SAA is "integral part of the South African Infrastructure" holds no water. The rest of the world has shown that airlines must be allowed to sink or swim. Funny how unions at Alitalia had a huge attitude change when they were told the party was over.
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I've said it once and I'll say again. As long as the Goverment dictates how SAA should be run and who should run it they must be prepared to pay for their lack of wisdom. If you don't like this fact you have the right to vote out the present goverment.
SAA has the potential to be profatable. It operates fuel effeciant a/c on routes with good load factors.
SAA's problem is that politcal interference takes precedent over commercial sense. Every Tom, Dick and Harry taking a dig at SAA drivers is rather pointless. The pilots would run the company alot differently I promise you. This is a pilots forum, if someone wants to take a dig at the we fly the a/c that's fine but please don't bitch at us about the way the company is run. There's nothing we can do about it.
SAA has the potential to be profatable. It operates fuel effeciant a/c on routes with good load factors.
SAA's problem is that politcal interference takes precedent over commercial sense. Every Tom, Dick and Harry taking a dig at SAA drivers is rather pointless. The pilots would run the company alot differently I promise you. This is a pilots forum, if someone wants to take a dig at the we fly the a/c that's fine but please don't bitch at us about the way the company is run. There's nothing we can do about it.
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Yup Q4NVS, you hit the nails head:
We all pay for:
-excellent roads and superior traffic facilities throughout the country
-speedy and friendly service delivery from government departments
-an oversupply of well trained and dedicated law-enforcement personel
-a super stable currency
and a trademarket that is the envy of the world
So way should we not give all our aboundent extra money to the shining diamond of Southafrica = SAA After all it is SAA!
Give it to the needy from SAA, because you would anyway only piss it against the wall..... hang on, this is actually very much the same,....
Yea Q4NVS, the southafrican infrastructure is as good as a swiss-watch (made in china) , ups I said the s-word again.
One day you must tell me what the colour of the sky is in your world...
SAA forms an integral part of the South African Infrastructure
-excellent roads and superior traffic facilities throughout the country
-speedy and friendly service delivery from government departments
-an oversupply of well trained and dedicated law-enforcement personel
-a super stable currency
and a trademarket that is the envy of the world
So way should we not give all our aboundent extra money to the shining diamond of Southafrica = SAA After all it is SAA!
Give it to the needy from SAA, because you would anyway only piss it against the wall..... hang on, this is actually very much the same,....
Yea Q4NVS, the southafrican infrastructure is as good as a swiss-watch (made in china) , ups I said the s-word again.
One day you must tell me what the colour of the sky is in your world...
Last edited by Setron; 6th Oct 2008 at 19:36.
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Every Tom, Dick and Harry taking a dig at SAA drivers is rather pointless.
That said, I also dont wanna hear nashing of teeth and tearing of robes if and when the taxpayer decided the music stops and the party is over. I wanna see how things go down when all the SAA unions are given a 'Alitalia' style 'sink or swim' deal.
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The South African world-image, and economy will most definitely develop a bad cough if SAA were to fold. This will not benefit the taxpayer, whether he likes SAA or not. Now is not the time to pull the rug out under SAA. It will be to everyone’s detriment for a long, long time.
Screw gold, diamonds, platinum, agriculture etc. etc. You obviously believe that SAA is a major contributor to our "booming economy"!?!? Mmmmm I wonder.. It may suprise you that only a handfull of people like yourself will loose any sleep at the demise of our esteemed national carrier! [ I do however regret the loss of jobs for all those that earn an honest income at this peach of a company, bar one or two skygods!]
But your absolute pearl of wisdom must be " not benefit the taxpayer". Mmmm I wonder... how could any Country possibly benefit from CANCELING a couple of BILLION RAND DEBT every year...go figure?!?!
How long can you flog a dead horse?
And to whose detriment?
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Well said Divinehover, I see none of the SAA pilot bashers are responding to your statement, obviously not fitting into their "way of seeing things" and that all that is rotten in the state of SAA is to be laid at their (SAA pilots/ skygods /whatever)doorsteps.
This is exactly it - get the political meddelers out of SAA and then judge the operation- it would be a completely different story. The pilots/staff is doing exactly what all the detractors would do in the same situation - make the best of the situation - making hay while the ANC/goverment sun shines!
This is exactly it - get the political meddelers out of SAA and then judge the operation- it would be a completely different story. The pilots/staff is doing exactly what all the detractors would do in the same situation - make the best of the situation - making hay while the ANC/goverment sun shines!
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Point taken about this not only being a Pilot forum Suitcaseman.
I will also ask you to re - read the previous posts - I do not see the SAA pilot group 'defending' the company - we are defending our rights as a highly respected group of individuals that are well trained (as are others in the industry before you throw your toys) that are doing the best we can under the company called SAA.
We are the first to admit that things are askew in the organisation, and have tried numerous and varied ways to help remedy the situation. SAA is and will for the foreseeable future remain firmly within goverment control and under their directorship and they do not take advise or suggested help kindly.
I (and I believe most of the pilot group) would welcome the day of complete privatizasion with open arms. When SAA is allowed to hire the right people for the job, irrespective of race or colour. Where management is appointed on skill, qualifications and experience and not on whom you know in a higer position/goverment.
We can only then truly judge the nature of SAA competiveness and success in the industry.
'over'
I will also ask you to re - read the previous posts - I do not see the SAA pilot group 'defending' the company - we are defending our rights as a highly respected group of individuals that are well trained (as are others in the industry before you throw your toys) that are doing the best we can under the company called SAA.
We are the first to admit that things are askew in the organisation, and have tried numerous and varied ways to help remedy the situation. SAA is and will for the foreseeable future remain firmly within goverment control and under their directorship and they do not take advise or suggested help kindly.
I (and I believe most of the pilot group) would welcome the day of complete privatizasion with open arms. When SAA is allowed to hire the right people for the job, irrespective of race or colour. Where management is appointed on skill, qualifications and experience and not on whom you know in a higer position/goverment.
We can only then truly judge the nature of SAA competiveness and success in the industry.
'over'
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Well said.....divinehover
As long as the Goverment dictates how SAA should be run and who should run it they must be prepared to pay for their lack of wisdom.
SAA has the potential to be profatable.
SAA's problem is that politcal interference takes precedent over commercial sense.
SAA has the potential to be profatable.
SAA's problem is that politcal interference takes precedent over commercial sense.
The pilots would run the company alot differently I promise you.
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About a year and a few months ago there was big talk in German media of Lufthansa stocking up SAA shares big style - this is what they did with Swiss Air, which is now just called "Swiss". They were also interested in AItalia at some stage - probably to expand their Cargo fleet with MD11s but dropped that idea as well. Something must of scared them off SAA last minute (sharp rise in oil prices and fear of political instability), but if Goverment decides to sell shares and influence and get rid of the sick patient, Lufthansa might return and pull strings - after all they are StarAlliance Partners already and always on the lookout to buy ailing competitors to secure market shares against KLM/Airfrance.
Anyone know more ? Takeovers can happen very quickly before anyone even knows, when the time is right... and I believe then the heads in the beancounter department will roll if they can not produce expected results. Might be a good thing for SAA.
Anyone know more ? Takeovers can happen very quickly before anyone even knows, when the time is right... and I believe then the heads in the beancounter department will roll if they can not produce expected results. Might be a good thing for SAA.
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Setron,
What planet are you talking about?
I must have been abducted by aliens, 
cos the planet I'm on has none of the above.
Then I read the rest of your post...
and it seems we may be on the same page after all!
We all pay for:
-excellent roads and superior traffic facilities throughout the country
-speedy and friendly service delivery from government departments
-an oversupply of well trained and dedicated law-enforcement personel
-a super stable currency
and a trademarket that is the envy of the world
-excellent roads and superior traffic facilities throughout the country
-speedy and friendly service delivery from government departments
-an oversupply of well trained and dedicated law-enforcement personel
-a super stable currency
and a trademarket that is the envy of the world
I must have been abducted by aliens, cos the planet I'm on has none of the above.Then I read the rest of your post...
One day you must tell me what the colour of the sky is in your world...
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I (and I believe most of the pilot group) would welcome the day of complete privatizasion with open arms.
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Unlike Swiss, SAA is not a publicly traded company - thus you cannot buy up shares in it. Any sales of shares would have to go through a public tender process and be ratified by Parliament so I doubt the Germans have been buying shares! Nothing scared them off since the government have no intention, much to my dismay, of getting rid of any of SAA!
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Thanks Evanb for explaining I did not remember, was just something in the back of my head. Then all it was back then, is that Lufthansa voiced interest but had no options for the reasons you explained - that is probably why it did not happen 
Looks like they want to get their hands on pretty much anything they can get for a good price.
Looks like they want to get their hands on pretty much anything they can get for a good price.
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"We can only dream about an Airline run by pilots!! This will make a lot of SAA's "super-efficient" managers very nervous."
Unfortunately this is not the answer. Historically, pilots have not shown to be effective airline executives.
Best of luck to all at SAA when privatization does come.
Cheers,
WG
Unfortunately this is not the answer. Historically, pilots have not shown to be effective airline executives.
Best of luck to all at SAA when privatization does come.
Cheers,
WG
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privatise
Bubbly Drinker,
Well said. One of the more balanced posts on the topic. (Pitch and Moan will probably not agree, but what else do we expect?)
However, I would disagree that SAA could make a go of international Ops. They could not compete against the likes of the European Flag carriers who have larger rescources and operate, even B747-400's, efficiently. I would hazard a guess that they would forever more have to be subsidized, regardless of what they do. (Dig at management here, not the pilots).
I agree that other operators could cover the domestic scene, and no doubt with some prudent expansion, could eventually even opperate successfully on the international routes, presently operated by The Kempton Park Flying Club.
Such expansion would no doubt provide all the present pilots at SAA with gainfull employment, however probably at more market related salaries. (OOPS, thats not what they want.)
Well said. One of the more balanced posts on the topic. (Pitch and Moan will probably not agree, but what else do we expect?)
However, I would disagree that SAA could make a go of international Ops. They could not compete against the likes of the European Flag carriers who have larger rescources and operate, even B747-400's, efficiently. I would hazard a guess that they would forever more have to be subsidized, regardless of what they do. (Dig at management here, not the pilots).
I agree that other operators could cover the domestic scene, and no doubt with some prudent expansion, could eventually even opperate successfully on the international routes, presently operated by The Kempton Park Flying Club.
Such expansion would no doubt provide all the present pilots at SAA with gainfull employment, however probably at more market related salaries. (OOPS, thats not what they want.)