Change at SAA
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Good day to you all…
Though I am a very passionate commercial pilot I do not earn much of a living out of the industry and mostly work as a management consultant assisting with corporate turnarounds. This I am doing after 20 years of corporate experience in various industries. Though I intensely dislike the SAA operation for being a drag to the SA taxpayer (much like Escom and the CAA) I do not think any of these parastatal’s has commercially changed much in the last two decades or that it will change much within the medium term. Apart from the obvious BEE challenge that is.
I suspect that all its pilots (and probably most employees not on the board) are just too glad to have a decent paying job – irrelevant as to where the money comes from. As such one can not blame them and in my view this has nothing to do with who’s the better employee (or pilot). Nor can anybody in the aviation industry stand the moral high ground – there are very few aviation concerns, if any, in SA that delivers a world class attitude, level of service, operation or profit. And I am comparing with other industries worldwide when I say this. SAA will remain part of the economical landscape (warts and all).
What I find rather hard to swallow is the way that my fellow aviators sometimes love to pull each other down on these public forums – it seems like an industry imploding on itself and I have rarely witnessed such division. Is this a simple case of SAA being “The Parabats” and everybody else just “no good normal infantry” and cannon fodder? It’s bad enough that just about every “non-pilot” body in this industry seems focused on putting these “arrogant egocentric pilots” in their place - do we have to do that as well?
But hey – what do I know…..
Have a great day.
Brand Wessels
Though I am a very passionate commercial pilot I do not earn much of a living out of the industry and mostly work as a management consultant assisting with corporate turnarounds. This I am doing after 20 years of corporate experience in various industries. Though I intensely dislike the SAA operation for being a drag to the SA taxpayer (much like Escom and the CAA) I do not think any of these parastatal’s has commercially changed much in the last two decades or that it will change much within the medium term. Apart from the obvious BEE challenge that is.
I suspect that all its pilots (and probably most employees not on the board) are just too glad to have a decent paying job – irrelevant as to where the money comes from. As such one can not blame them and in my view this has nothing to do with who’s the better employee (or pilot). Nor can anybody in the aviation industry stand the moral high ground – there are very few aviation concerns, if any, in SA that delivers a world class attitude, level of service, operation or profit. And I am comparing with other industries worldwide when I say this. SAA will remain part of the economical landscape (warts and all).
What I find rather hard to swallow is the way that my fellow aviators sometimes love to pull each other down on these public forums – it seems like an industry imploding on itself and I have rarely witnessed such division. Is this a simple case of SAA being “The Parabats” and everybody else just “no good normal infantry” and cannon fodder? It’s bad enough that just about every “non-pilot” body in this industry seems focused on putting these “arrogant egocentric pilots” in their place - do we have to do that as well?
But hey – what do I know…..
Have a great day.
Brand Wessels
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Honestly never applied for a job at SAA. Heard it was full of guys like you so I figured it would be best to do something enjoyable with my time
It's unfortunate that a few individuals tarnish the reputation of so many. I too had the misconception that SAA was full of egotistical individuals and after joining realised that this was the furthest thing from the truth! In fact I cannot say that I have met or come across any individual in my flying career at SAA that fits this mould.(Although Pitch & Fan is coming close to this perception)!!!!!
As I mentioned in my previous post we do a job just as any other pilot in the industry, we just happen to do it for the national carrier and certain individuals begrudge us that. Professional jealousy maybe? Well so be it...but I do my job as professionally and as safe as anyone else....egotistical...no way...just proud of my achievement and happy to be where I am!
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Bah Humbug!
Sorry to ruin the party, but back in the day, I worked for SAA, for most of my career actually. Granted, it hasn't been recently, but I found all those chaps, myself included (ah the beauty of youth and clarity of hindsight) to be incredibly arrogant and even worse, what a bunch of chauvinists. We really were a bunch of dogs and sadly not much has changed, except that the organisation has degenerated. If I had my time again, I'd stay well clear.
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In all the years that I've been flying (and even reading about flying), there have always been big egos involved. To deny that most pilots are egocentric is simply a denial of a very well documented truth. This has always existed in aviation, and those who fly for SAA are certainly no exception. Competitiveness is a good thing... Slander is not.
What gets my goat is the persistent derogatory commentary that comes from a few disgruntled pilots outside of SAA about the airline. This criticism is very seldom objective, reasonable or accurately apportioned.
To imagine that SAA pilots will forever read this drivel and never respond is a fantastical perception. We have many in our ranks that would manage the moment passionately if this conversation was conducted face to face with the likes of some of the chaps posting on this thread.
So let's get real folks. Criticism... Sure. It can only help to keep us honest, and there's always the hope that such criticism will help to improve matters, whatever they may be.
But, bitter, twisted and destructive vitriol originating from a few jealous, or slightly dim-witted individuals... Sorry , but it simply isn't the ****.
And to anyone who may be reading this thread... By no means should you let my expressions tar all the rest of SAA's pilots with the same brush. I'm altogether on my own mission! How any of the others wish to respond is entirely their own prerogative.
Cheers,
Pitch&Fan
What gets my goat is the persistent derogatory commentary that comes from a few disgruntled pilots outside of SAA about the airline. This criticism is very seldom objective, reasonable or accurately apportioned.
To imagine that SAA pilots will forever read this drivel and never respond is a fantastical perception. We have many in our ranks that would manage the moment passionately if this conversation was conducted face to face with the likes of some of the chaps posting on this thread.
So let's get real folks. Criticism... Sure. It can only help to keep us honest, and there's always the hope that such criticism will help to improve matters, whatever they may be.
But, bitter, twisted and destructive vitriol originating from a few jealous, or slightly dim-witted individuals... Sorry , but it simply isn't the ****.
And to anyone who may be reading this thread... By no means should you let my expressions tar all the rest of SAA's pilots with the same brush. I'm altogether on my own mission! How any of the others wish to respond is entirely their own prerogative.
Cheers,
Pitch&Fan
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Originally Posted by Dark - Knight
...we just happen to do it for the national carrier and certain individuals begrudge us that. Professional jealousy maybe?
Guys, you're missing the point - you, as SAA pilots, get targeted on these forums because you're all that's available. Plus, you're normally your own worst enemies. Believe me, if SAA management, or even better, the clowns in government who allow the inverse Robin Hood behaviour (stealing from the poor, and giving to the rich) to continue were here, rest assured that they'd be taking a flaming.
The point that you tend to miss, is that whilst there may be 'disgruntled pilots' who like to bash SAA because they didn't get in (and nowdays, how many of those are there really?), the fact of the matter is that if you persist for long enough, and do your work, you'll get in - you're not particularly special (not meant in a bad way). You're entitled to feel proud of your achievements. BUT, their actually are many pilots out there who really don't want to be there. I know, I know, you have to think outside the SAA box on this one, but it's true. You really should learn to appreciate the basic argument that other pilots simply don't enjoy contributing to your salary, which is already quite substantially higher than the national average, duty for duty (ie B738/A319 short haul crew compared to Comair, 1Time etc.)
So please, you're letting the side down by lapsing into the 'you're just jealous' argument.
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One of the biggest SAA moaners I know got into SAA recently, funny, I don't hear him moaning any more!
Not too sure how many younger guys would want to turn down a direct entry on a A319 or B738. It might be different if you are in your early forties and can't wait the 12-13 years it take for command at SAA.
Not too sure how many younger guys would want to turn down a direct entry on a A319 or B738. It might be different if you are in your early forties and can't wait the 12-13 years it take for command at SAA.
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SAX v SAA
People tend to forget that SAX is - exactly like SAA - DPE-owned. Yet it runs well, has a great CEO and ACTUALLY MAKES MONEY! Surely that must indicate that something is rotten in SAA?
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What it does indicate is that SAX is a well run airline, with a great CEO, and that it makes money... Which is super, and most commendable indeed. The current CEO is the first to really shine (and be respected by the pilots) since the days of Don Wallace, and the Deluces. It also goes to show that an affirmative action, woman CEO can do a great job of running a very complex and challenging business. Refreshing, encouraging stuff indeed! I wish she would move across to SAA!
SAA however, is by nature and history, a more complex organization than SAX, with heavily entrenched staffing, cultural, and scale challenges. One (and maybe the only) way to sort this out is a total, and very difficult thinning out, and staff retrenchment move. The idea here is simply to reduce the number of mouths each aircraft is required to feed, so-to-speak. How to choose which ones though… Let’s not forget union involvement, and judgement mistakes. This will require some very, very good, and very tough leadership.
The CEO who has the guts to do this will most likely face death threats, and other nasty things along the way. Not an easy task at all, and one which will place heavy ethical and moral burdens on the organization. To get someone to handle this burden, will cost big bucks, and that's a reality we will not easily escape. Along with such change, comes the inevitable erosion of staff and stakeholder confidence in the airline. This usually precedes a big resignation wave, of staff that the airline will really need, to keep the show on the road. Some of this has already taken place, as we have all seen.
If this had to come about as a result of privatization, it would be an even more difficult task to manage.
What I am certain of though is the viability of the airline. I, and many others among you have done the reading and thinking on this. Sure… I accept that many will not agree. So be it. None of us are actually wearing the repairman's shoes anyway.
The South African world-image, and economy will most definitely develop a bad cough if SAA were to fold. This will not benefit the taxpayer, whether he likes SAA or not. Now is not the time to pull the rug out under SAA. It will be to everyone’s detriment for a long, long time.
This is, once again, just a personal expression of opinion, and should not be taken to represent that of anyone else but myself.
Cheers, and enjoyable flying to all, I’m going to stop my nonsense now.
Pitch & Fan
SAA however, is by nature and history, a more complex organization than SAX, with heavily entrenched staffing, cultural, and scale challenges. One (and maybe the only) way to sort this out is a total, and very difficult thinning out, and staff retrenchment move. The idea here is simply to reduce the number of mouths each aircraft is required to feed, so-to-speak. How to choose which ones though… Let’s not forget union involvement, and judgement mistakes. This will require some very, very good, and very tough leadership.
The CEO who has the guts to do this will most likely face death threats, and other nasty things along the way. Not an easy task at all, and one which will place heavy ethical and moral burdens on the organization. To get someone to handle this burden, will cost big bucks, and that's a reality we will not easily escape. Along with such change, comes the inevitable erosion of staff and stakeholder confidence in the airline. This usually precedes a big resignation wave, of staff that the airline will really need, to keep the show on the road. Some of this has already taken place, as we have all seen.
If this had to come about as a result of privatization, it would be an even more difficult task to manage.
What I am certain of though is the viability of the airline. I, and many others among you have done the reading and thinking on this. Sure… I accept that many will not agree. So be it. None of us are actually wearing the repairman's shoes anyway.
The South African world-image, and economy will most definitely develop a bad cough if SAA were to fold. This will not benefit the taxpayer, whether he likes SAA or not. Now is not the time to pull the rug out under SAA. It will be to everyone’s detriment for a long, long time.
This is, once again, just a personal expression of opinion, and should not be taken to represent that of anyone else but myself.
Cheers, and enjoyable flying to all, I’m going to stop my nonsense now.
Pitch & Fan
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SAX showed an operational profit in 1996 and the Canadians sold out and left. The new management and subsequent management screwed it up good. The 2005 profit an operating profit but overall loss. The last two years by screwing crew and running routes without competition and getting very cheap aircraft. This new year will be interesting. Especially with a fuel budget 200% over and the handling contract budget blown by the end of Aug.
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It depends how one defines proiftability I guess ... the books say profit but they get half their costs for feee: free revenue management, ticketing, feed and branding from SAA! When the government tried to sell SAX in 2007 they couldn't find a buyer since without a guarantee of the franchise agreement with SAA it was worth nothing! I worked on a valuation project for a potential buyer - if we took away everything that it gets from SAA it was a dissaster!
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That's interesting evan, because the financials that we get to see at briefings contain significant costs to SAA for revenue management, passenger handling and millions to SAA for advertising.
I actually think that without SAX's contributions, SAA's picture would look even bleaker. It is not as if SAA's costs will decrease if SAX went their own way and the SAX route structure is planned around SAA's main routes and international connections. A recent change to SAX's GBE frequencies had the SAA knickers in a knot, because we then connected seamlessly with BA's international flight times and not to SAA's.
I actually think that without SAX's contributions, SAA's picture would look even bleaker. It is not as if SAA's costs will decrease if SAX went their own way and the SAX route structure is planned around SAA's main routes and international connections. A recent change to SAX's GBE frequencies had the SAA knickers in a knot, because we then connected seamlessly with BA's international flight times and not to SAA's.
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Is this a simple case of SAA being “The Parabats” and everybody else just “no good normal infantry” and cannon fodder?
...or moonbats.
Lights blue touch paper and retires...
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S-man! 
Dont forget "Flightstar" (just another state-murder-victim)
To all who think SAA is immortal, cause the idiots up there can not let go:
-Swissair going down ? Never, they are to well organised and then there is the national pride of the moneyhorders there between the mountains... -
Now how organised is SAA compared to Swissair? Or are you all banking on the stupidity of the government? (OK, ok, that could be a sure bet!)
ex SunAir crew and possibly Nationwide feel they may still have been around
To all who think SAA is immortal, cause the idiots up there can not let go:
-Swissair going down ? Never, they are to well organised and then there is the national pride of the moneyhorders there between the mountains... -
Now how organised is SAA compared to Swissair? Or are you all banking on the stupidity of the government? (OK, ok, that could be a sure bet!)
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Yes, I agree in a free economy, a government subsidised airline like SAA has an unfair advantage, but let me ask this thought provoking question:
SAA is one of the oldest airlines in the world, and started flying commercially in SA well before the others even thought about it (SAA started in 1934 taking over Union Airways, Comair 1946). The opposition started knowing that they were going to have to take on a goverment subsidised airline, and now they whinge!
Imagine starting up as an electricity supplier and tring to take on Eskom. Come on please!!! And then that same opposition then whinges about Eskom being government subsidised.
I'm not condoning a bottomless pit like SAA seems to be at times, the bad management, and the salaries the fat cats in upper management earn there, but just the issue of SAA having an unfair advantage.
Does anyone agree with this logic, or is it only me?
SAA is one of the oldest airlines in the world, and started flying commercially in SA well before the others even thought about it (SAA started in 1934 taking over Union Airways, Comair 1946). The opposition started knowing that they were going to have to take on a goverment subsidised airline, and now they whinge!
Imagine starting up as an electricity supplier and tring to take on Eskom. Come on please!!! And then that same opposition then whinges about Eskom being government subsidised.
I'm not condoning a bottomless pit like SAA seems to be at times, the bad management, and the salaries the fat cats in upper management earn there, but just the issue of SAA having an unfair advantage.
Does anyone agree with this logic, or is it only me?
Last edited by Gyro Nut; 5th Oct 2008 at 19:09.
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Gyro has a point, its like the guy who buys a house near an airport and then complains about the noise!
SAX pays SAA only half of what other airlines (mostly foreign) would pay for the same services! They are paying much less than the going rate!
SAX pays SAA only half of what other airlines (mostly foreign) would pay for the same services! They are paying much less than the going rate!