RVSM Africa
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Is SLOP to be used in an FIR where radar coverage is provided?
In the NAT area of operation, there is no radar coverage, and SLOP should be used. Once you exit the NAT area into adjoining RVSM airspace, the SLOP must be canceled.
In the NAT area of operation, there is no radar coverage, and SLOP should be used. Once you exit the NAT area into adjoining RVSM airspace, the SLOP must be canceled.
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TJ
Very good question! What does jepp say? From an ATC perspective, I have not heard this topic being discussed as yet.
Strategic Lateral Offset in RVSM - Page 2 - Airline Pilot Central Forums
I see this matter being discussed under the above link.
Maybe it'll help?
Very good question! What does jepp say? From an ATC perspective, I have not heard this topic being discussed as yet.
Strategic Lateral Offset in RVSM - Page 2 - Airline Pilot Central Forums
I see this matter being discussed under the above link.
Maybe it'll help?
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RVSM on the 25th
Was just looking through the RVSM requirements for South Africa, and noting how few general aviation operators were compliant (no faith in ATNS?). It got we wondering, so I picked up the CARS and CATS, and unless I am missing an update, the law still prescribes the old altitudes.
Now taking into account that the CARS and CATS are regulations contained in laws, how do we suddenly on the 25th start breaking the law?
What happens if two airliners go bang in the transition period (or after) followed by a rain of aliminium?
I am willing to bet that the underwriters will cry foul to save themselves a hundred million or so, and accuse the crew of operating illegally.
Any thoughts, am I wrong here?
Something also just occurred to me - can ATNS legally clear you to an altitude which does not exist in the regulations - I know thaty can do it for safety,but as a matter of course?
Some guys are saying, well there is an AIC, - an AIC will not help you when you stand infront of the magistraat - it is an information document only.
Now taking into account that the CARS and CATS are regulations contained in laws, how do we suddenly on the 25th start breaking the law?
What happens if two airliners go bang in the transition period (or after) followed by a rain of aliminium?
I am willing to bet that the underwriters will cry foul to save themselves a hundred million or so, and accuse the crew of operating illegally.
Any thoughts, am I wrong here?
Something also just occurred to me - can ATNS legally clear you to an altitude which does not exist in the regulations - I know thaty can do it for safety,but as a matter of course?
Some guys are saying, well there is an AIC, - an AIC will not help you when you stand infront of the magistraat - it is an information document only.
Last edited by RSQ; 16th Sep 2008 at 16:20. Reason: Addition of points
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RVSM in Africa
Yup - my question is - the CARS and CATs mandate and legislate the old flight levels, seeing that the CAA have not updated the law, we cannot operate at the new levels in contravention of the regulations in the event of a bang - the insurers will run for cover!
Personally, I will file the old levels and refuse to accept any clearance in contravention of the law.
Personally, I will file the old levels and refuse to accept any clearance in contravention of the law.
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RSQ, you're right
CARS (Namibian) states the following:
Operation in defined airspace with Reduced Vertical Separation Minima (RVSM)
121.08.43 An operator shall not
operate an aeroplane in defined portions of airspace where, based on Regional Air Navigation Agreement, a vertical separation minimum of 300m (1000ft) applies unless approved to do so by the Director (RVSM Approval) 
Semi-circular rule
91.06.33 (1) Unless otherwise directed by an air traffic service unit, the pilot-in-command of an aircraft in level flight, shall fly at an appropriate flight level selected according to magnetic track from the table as prescribed in Document NAM-CATS-OPS 91.
CATS Part 91 It refers to the old semi-cirular rule
CARS (Namibian) states the following:
Operation in defined airspace with Reduced Vertical Separation Minima (RVSM)
121.08.43 An operator shall not
operate an aeroplane in defined portions of airspace where, based on Regional Air Navigation Agreement, a vertical separation minimum of 300m (1000ft) applies unless approved to do so by the Director (RVSM Approval) Semi-circular rule
91.06.33 (1) Unless otherwise directed by an air traffic service unit, the pilot-in-command of an aircraft in level flight, shall fly at an appropriate flight level selected according to magnetic track from the table as prescribed in Document NAM-CATS-OPS 91.
CATS Part 91 It refers to the old semi-cirular rule
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Now we getting interesting
RSQ et al has now started something
Can someone give us the correct legal view and what is SACAA doing about it.
As far as I know CARCOM must sit to change the CATS and CARS or the SACAA must bring an emergercy change to the regs like they did the other day to sort the mes out wih instructors
What does the regs for you ATC talkers say in about the RVSM levels
Rather interesting
Sorry I am living in the sticks and the CATS and CARS on the CAA website is about ten changes out of date and takes hours to download
Looking foward to the comments
Can someone give us the correct legal view and what is SACAA doing about it.
As far as I know CARCOM must sit to change the CATS and CARS or the SACAA must bring an emergercy change to the regs like they did the other day to sort the mes out wih instructors
What does the regs for you ATC talkers say in about the RVSM levels
Rather interesting
Sorry I am living in the sticks and the CATS and CARS on the CAA website is about ten changes out of date and takes hours to download
Looking foward to the comments
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surprise, surprise....SA are at the fore front of implementing RVSM....are you guys sure the laws dont give a table of RVSM levels and state that it is subject to Regional air Navigation agreement......check the updates.....Kenya has that law...
''Personally, I will file the old levels and refuse to accept any clearance in contravention of the law''......would not advise that
''Personally, I will file the old levels and refuse to accept any clearance in contravention of the law''......would not advise that
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Well, he's welcome to refuse that clearance - it's his prerogative. But the next one's going to be 'Climb and maintain flight level 290, final level.' 
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Do not agree!
Rags, where in Nigeria do you operate?
My experience is that the briefing personell and atc's in Nigeria know exactly what RVSM entails and that they have been trained for the implementation! I further believe that there is a plan for the changeover period and that the concern should rather be about non rvsm aircraft that "plunder" into said airspace, than that the country is not prepared! Let us be more cautious about making general statements on a public forum without verifying the facts first! A valid question is "What is the experience in the rest of Africa?" Lets plan properly and fly safe!
My experience is that the briefing personell and atc's in Nigeria know exactly what RVSM entails and that they have been trained for the implementation! I further believe that there is a plan for the changeover period and that the concern should rather be about non rvsm aircraft that "plunder" into said airspace, than that the country is not prepared! Let us be more cautious about making general statements on a public forum without verifying the facts first! A valid question is "What is the experience in the rest of Africa?" Lets plan properly and fly safe!
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Great thread Guys and Gals
Personally we are ready and GA ----wonders of wonders But i feel RSQ has a point. How do we get a straight answer to this from CAA in Midrand at the moment. You speak to different inspectors and get different interpretations. Is there anybody at CAA who knows the law with regards to RSQ,s point above.
Personally we are ready and GA ----wonders of wonders But i feel RSQ has a point. How do we get a straight answer to this from CAA in Midrand at the moment. You speak to different inspectors and get different interpretations. Is there anybody at CAA who knows the law with regards to RSQ,s point above.
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Afi Rvsm
Guys,
Congratulations as this is one of the first positive foruns I have found on PPrune! Any way going back to the subject RVSM in Africa.
I do think it is a bit premature to be implemented!
Just look at FIRīs like Luanda or Kinshasa where some times you go for hours without any radio com or any traffic info/separation!!!!
If in the past 126,90 was important now it will be even more.
I sincerely hope that this move does not cause a major incidente/accident.
The responsability will once again bear in the shoulders of the flight crew, increasing significantly the allready high levels of stress and workload!
On the other hand, what about procedures, all the other RVSM areas like the NAT, EUR RVSM, EUR/SAM, PAC, have well prescribed procedures, specially contingency procedures. Does any one have the prescrived procedures for AFI RVSM?
Looking forward to get your thoughts,
FLY SAFE!
Congratulations as this is one of the first positive foruns I have found on PPrune! Any way going back to the subject RVSM in Africa.
I do think it is a bit premature to be implemented!
Just look at FIRīs like Luanda or Kinshasa where some times you go for hours without any radio com or any traffic info/separation!!!!
If in the past 126,90 was important now it will be even more.
I sincerely hope that this move does not cause a major incidente/accident.
The responsability will once again bear in the shoulders of the flight crew, increasing significantly the allready high levels of stress and workload!
On the other hand, what about procedures, all the other RVSM areas like the NAT, EUR RVSM, EUR/SAM, PAC, have well prescribed procedures, specially contingency procedures. Does any one have the prescrived procedures for AFI RVSM?
Looking forward to get your thoughts,
FLY SAFE!
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LT
I agree that it might seem a little premature to implement RVSM, but the problem is that it has been postponed for years already. All the states had more than enough time and access to recourses and expertise to comply by the said date. No more excuses!
And yes, I believe that there will be some states that wont be entirely ready, as well as some airlines. But they will be the ones embarrased. Time has run out, we cant keep on postponing...
Regarding the procedures, in order to acquire RVSM approval flight crew should undergo RVSM training. This should adress all the issues regarding procedures. Else the regional monitoring agency (ARMA) can surely help out with the necessary info? They can be reached at ATNS (Johannesburg, South Africa). They are really doing a great job, and are very very helpfull.
If I could give some advise to fellow aviators. One of the biggest teething problems I see coming is on who will be allowed into RVSM airspace and who wont. The way it works is that a state must grant RVSM approval to its local aircraft when they apply for such and meet the minimum requirements. This information "shall" then be passed on to ARMA (South Africa) who have an updated list of all approved aircraft in the region.
But what has come to my attention during the past few days is that this info is not in all cased passed on to ARMA, and therefor it might happen that you are considered non-RVSM when flying to neigboring FIR's, even though your paperwork is actually in order. I know that Angola and Namibia for instance have not one aircraft registered with ARMA. It would be silly if an A340 gets stuck at FL280 all the way to Europe, due to the DCA not doing their job.
So to avoid being stuck below FL290 on thursday, maybe just get your OPS office to double check with ARMA on your RVSM status!
Regards
I agree that it might seem a little premature to implement RVSM, but the problem is that it has been postponed for years already. All the states had more than enough time and access to recourses and expertise to comply by the said date. No more excuses!
And yes, I believe that there will be some states that wont be entirely ready, as well as some airlines. But they will be the ones embarrased. Time has run out, we cant keep on postponing...
Regarding the procedures, in order to acquire RVSM approval flight crew should undergo RVSM training. This should adress all the issues regarding procedures. Else the regional monitoring agency (ARMA) can surely help out with the necessary info? They can be reached at ATNS (Johannesburg, South Africa). They are really doing a great job, and are very very helpfull.
If I could give some advise to fellow aviators. One of the biggest teething problems I see coming is on who will be allowed into RVSM airspace and who wont. The way it works is that a state must grant RVSM approval to its local aircraft when they apply for such and meet the minimum requirements. This information "shall" then be passed on to ARMA (South Africa) who have an updated list of all approved aircraft in the region.
But what has come to my attention during the past few days is that this info is not in all cased passed on to ARMA, and therefor it might happen that you are considered non-RVSM when flying to neigboring FIR's, even though your paperwork is actually in order. I know that Angola and Namibia for instance have not one aircraft registered with ARMA. It would be silly if an A340 gets stuck at FL280 all the way to Europe, due to the DCA not doing their job.
So to avoid being stuck below FL290 on thursday, maybe just get your OPS office to double check with ARMA on your RVSM status!
Regards
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we should be concerned
Is that thing going to for real?I mean it's like 2 days from today and am hearing nothing from my company.What i dont understand is the atc's concerned dont even have a radio eqpt thet can be relayable for half the F.I.R. they say they cntrol.From all africa i think southern africa and to a limited extent some parts of western africa excluding nigeria; liberia;ivorycoast; ande.t.c. r able to handle the load that comes with being an R.V.S.M. airspace.By the way when it comes i think it applies to all states concerned rather than being optional.It should be or else flying R.V.S.M. in one airspace and changing to non R.V.S.M. in another is gonna be the real headache.HEY FLIERS GET READY FOR THE NOT SO READY AND BEST OF LUCK .
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Rvsm Aic
Gents
For those thinking this is a "dream" that RVSM is not happening on 25 Sept 08 at 0001Z, here is the link for the lawful confirmation.
http://www.atns.co.za/RVSMimplement.pdf
For the sake of flight safety, LETS ALL PLEASE just take hands and make it work as this will not be the time to look for "issues", rather get educated, prepared, and FLY SAFE as RVSM is not going to make flight ops easier, it might allow more economic sense for the long run which I believe we all can benefit from it.
To those "die hards" out there, if you are brave to fly at FL280 and below, you surely have enough loot for fuel, so "burn along". To those being proactive on this, welcome to aviation evolution as you guys are the future of aviation in Africa.
Fly safe!
Apollo 20.
For those thinking this is a "dream" that RVSM is not happening on 25 Sept 08 at 0001Z, here is the link for the lawful confirmation.
http://www.atns.co.za/RVSMimplement.pdf
For the sake of flight safety, LETS ALL PLEASE just take hands and make it work as this will not be the time to look for "issues", rather get educated, prepared, and FLY SAFE as RVSM is not going to make flight ops easier, it might allow more economic sense for the long run which I believe we all can benefit from it.
To those "die hards" out there, if you are brave to fly at FL280 and below, you surely have enough loot for fuel, so "burn along". To those being proactive on this, welcome to aviation evolution as you guys are the future of aviation in Africa.
Fly safe!
Apollo 20.
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What are these "out the box" RVSM things of which you speak. Do they hold SACAA / KCAA etc certification yet? Or merely FAA?
Rumour has that in SA only a handfull of the country's business jets comply so far - any truth to that?
Rumour has that in SA only a handfull of the country's business jets comply so far - any truth to that?
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Thanks reptile!
In the meantime I had the chance to google a bit (yes, google is indeed our friend
) and found this rather informative document issued by ICAO:
http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/esaf/.../2008/0272.pdf
Cheers
BF
In the meantime I had the chance to google a bit (yes, google is indeed our friend
) and found this rather informative document issued by ICAO:http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/esaf/.../2008/0272.pdf
Cheers
BF
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abc.fp
Nice curved ball again.
Please point us to the ARMA site you talk about How do we know that ATC will allow us into RVSM I scratched on Euro controll site and they refer to the various regions to show the aproved aircraft and operators
How can we check if our aircraft is OK
I know mine is certified by the fairies at the waterfall but how do we know that it is internationally OK
Done the required ARINC flight about 9 months ago
WE still do not known if the CATS and CARS has ben ammended Help needed on this one
GOFFEL where are u
Please point us to the ARMA site you talk about How do we know that ATC will allow us into RVSM I scratched on Euro controll site and they refer to the various regions to show the aproved aircraft and operators
How can we check if our aircraft is OK
I know mine is certified by the fairies at the waterfall but how do we know that it is internationally OK
Done the required ARINC flight about 9 months ago
WE still do not known if the CATS and CARS has ben ammended Help needed on this one
GOFFEL where are u