FAWB : Ticking Time Bomb?
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primitive African dialect.English to at least the standard of ICAO Level 5, there might be less incidences of attempted linguistic suicide, carefully concealed behind the drapery known so affectionately to some as the Boerewors curtain
Cavortingcheetah, the cheetah is the smallest of the big cats, moet nou nie met die leeu se bal speel nie.
I have seen and heard so many questionable read backs at JNB from so called level6 experts
Which brigs to mind, how many times have you fluffed it?
Fuhter more, most English experst don't even follow the correct ICAO procedures and the terminolagy. It gets lost among the over inflated egos like your own. No wonder you're in Exíle.
Cavortingcheetah, the cheetah is the smallest of the big cats, moet nou nie met die leeu se bal speel nie.
I have seen and heard so many questionable read backs at JNB from so called level6 experts
Which brigs to mind, how many times have you fluffed it?
Fuhter more, most English experst don't even follow the correct ICAO procedures and the terminolagy. It gets lost among the over inflated egos like your own. No wonder you're in Exíle.
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Although I side with the aviators on this issue, it must also be said that I feel the shift to the majority of instructors being under the age of 21, young d%^# and full of @#$@# plays a major role.
These guys have basically only learnt how to pass a comm test, thats it, and are now teaching others the exact same thing. You cannot carry over the treasures of experience if you have none yourself. This is also creating a self-sustaining experience void in the pyramid of pilots that perpetuates from one u/21 top-gunner to the next one, and so the cycle continues.
Flying into WB regularly, I honestly feel that the ouens in ve skies needs some works on veir langooge skills, as a lot of congestion is caused by not coping with a. listening out properly, and b. battling to conceptualise instructions that deviate from the norm.
But, let me throw a spanner in the works now. Its not only at WB that ATC tries to dictate and overcontrol the airspace, its everywhere. Had to hold OUTSIDE OF THE FABL TMA the other day, FOR AN HOUR....while on an IF flightplan going into tempe. WTF chaps? Get with the program.
...so for ****s and giggles, I think we need to have a sticky template that gets pasted onto the window of EVERY tower in this country.
Remember who is there for who. We can fly without you. You can't control without us.
These guys have basically only learnt how to pass a comm test, thats it, and are now teaching others the exact same thing. You cannot carry over the treasures of experience if you have none yourself. This is also creating a self-sustaining experience void in the pyramid of pilots that perpetuates from one u/21 top-gunner to the next one, and so the cycle continues.
Flying into WB regularly, I honestly feel that the ouens in ve skies needs some works on veir langooge skills, as a lot of congestion is caused by not coping with a. listening out properly, and b. battling to conceptualise instructions that deviate from the norm.
But, let me throw a spanner in the works now. Its not only at WB that ATC tries to dictate and overcontrol the airspace, its everywhere. Had to hold OUTSIDE OF THE FABL TMA the other day, FOR AN HOUR....while on an IF flightplan going into tempe. WTF chaps? Get with the program.
...so for ****s and giggles, I think we need to have a sticky template that gets pasted onto the window of EVERY tower in this country.
Remember who is there for who. We can fly without you. You can't control without us.
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The 'under 21' instructors are simply a symptom of the industry at the moment - pilots are able to move on from instruction quickly, and most can skip it altogether. It's a difficult job, poorly paid, and can be very frustrating. Hence very few seriously experienced instructors.The glut of CE pilots might slow things down a little though...
I'm all in favour of introducing an age/experience limit for instructors, ie 21 or older (or some other random age), and 1000 hrs or more total flying time (or some other arbitrary number) . That way, there will be almost no instructors (so they'll be paid more), and we'll have far fewer pilots being trained, due to greatly increased costs. More jobs for us! It's a win/win scenario!
I'm all in favour of introducing an age/experience limit for instructors, ie 21 or older (or some other random age), and 1000 hrs or more total flying time (or some other arbitrary number) . That way, there will be almost no instructors (so they'll be paid more), and we'll have far fewer pilots being trained, due to greatly increased costs. More jobs for us! It's a win/win scenario!
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Help!!!
Due to the closeness of our office to WB, I unfortunately have to operate out of there. Every morning an average of 30 min is wasted waiting for my little callback. The frequency is a nightmare so split them up. Most of the congestion is caused by people calling in to see if they have a chance off doing circuit training. I personally think the answer would be a ground and tower frequency.
Secondly. The trainers part.... guys, remember that first day in your little Cessna taking off for the first time and you never thought it possible to fly that plane and speak to ATC at the same time..... yes I know you all do. Its a training airport! There will always be that one or two guys having a bad day, doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. If the pressure is off everybody the little error may be corrected. We all learn through our mistakes and thats what made you who you are today so cut the guys some slack and address the real issue (Aviation is growing so should ATNS)
Secondly. The trainers part.... guys, remember that first day in your little Cessna taking off for the first time and you never thought it possible to fly that plane and speak to ATC at the same time..... yes I know you all do. Its a training airport! There will always be that one or two guys having a bad day, doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. If the pressure is off everybody the little error may be corrected. We all learn through our mistakes and thats what made you who you are today so cut the guys some slack and address the real issue (Aviation is growing so should ATNS)
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Just to clarify. ATNS has been subsidising the service at Wonderboom for the last few years to the order of a Million plus per annum. Lay the blame where it needs to be laid and don't blame the ATC's for the restriction on the frequency due to the contract that stipulates 8 on frequency. They have no choice in the matter.
ATNS cannot help that the rest of the commercial aviation fraternity does not want us to subsidise the training airports. CAA almost suspended ATNS's licence at Wonderboom because the airport cannot provide the minimum required Met equipment. QNH is read inside the tower at the back of the console. Wind speed and direction is measured on the tower roof. The radio equipment belongs to the Metro and has not been replaced since 1992.
We have to make a phone call the JHB approach for each and every IF starter and also for their release. In the last year the IF flights have doubled. Not to mention the phone calls to and from Rand, Waterkloof, Lanseria, Central and Swartkop to liaise your flights between us and them. Also remember that there are only 4 ATC's so this means that there is only 1 person on duty doing all of this. Movement wise Wonderboom reduced a little in training flights due to the training restriction but still manages only 30 movements a day less than Rand. This with an average of less than 40 percent utilisation of the useable slots by the ATO's. Don't forget that you don't book a slot with the tower each ATO has his own allocated slots that he can use. That is the training movements accounted for but in Total movements Wonderboom is No2 in the country to JHB with Rand a close 3rd. (Yes Athol, Rand also counts training flights as 2 movements so too does every other ATNS unit in SA just as they do in the States, OZ and the rest of the world, but I'm sure your "study" will also reflect this).
AVI8TOR
You are right a few years ago there were quite a few more in the circuit but then you had people like Q4, Henry, Kakemas and the late Charles as instructors that actually could do more than 1 thing at a time. The quality of SPL's that went solo was of a high standard and we hardly had to work to keep 5 happy in the circuit. These days I work my ass off with only 3 in the circuit as the basics aren't taught.
Now you clear someone in from the GF directly onto the base and he f's it up and joins early downwind. Ask a person for his endurance and he responds that he "are flying a 172". Ask him again and he says "yes". Change the runway from 29 to 11 and ask 2 solo students to do a 180 on the downwind and they both do 360 orbits and continue on the downwind for 29. Students call their aircraft callsigns as "Indigo Wiki Ester".
If someone does report the traffic in sight and you tell him to follow him to final he ends up turning in ahead of the traffic he reported in sight. Yes you can sometimes missident traffic but when you are only 2 in the circuit then it is not so funny anymore. Students think it's a joke if they go onto the runway without a clearance. What was it "I am just a student I didn't know". Yes you didn't know beacuse you weren't taught that this is life or death and not a game.
Spoke to a wanabe instructor yesterday who can't believe that what he is learning to teach others is what he should have been taught in the first instance. WTF?
We have CTR violations daily runway incursions every other day and altitude busts is a common occurence. The circuit is flown between 4800 and 5500 feet which necessitates the odd avoiding action from those that actually fly at 5100 feet but who cares it's just Wonderboom and the ATC's are the D$#ks.
Yes Avi8tor bring back the good old days I just hope it's sooner rather than later. Walked into the tower the other day just in time to hear 2 helicopter pilots KaK theselves as a Seneca departed off runway 24 with both of them at 4800feet on the left downwind for 29. Missed them both by an ants ballhair and he did not even acknowledge their existence. Must have had the radio on the other frequency. Just like the time he landed a Van at night on 11 with 29 active with 4 in the circuit. That time he blamed the co-pilot for not selecting Wonderboom's frequency wonder what the excuse would be this time. Then he thought it was unmanned never mind it was 6pm in the middle of the week.
Or the crop duster that departs and lands on 06 in the middle of the night (After ATC hours) with 4 in the circuit on runway 29. No problem you might say. Only thing is there are no lights on 24/06 and instead of 06 he was a little confused and he landed on 24. probably saw the landing light of the one on final so he decided to turn left to reposition on final for 24 and give the one a chance to land. Ended up missing the one on downwind by a few feet and then proceeded to land on 24 passing just ahead of another on crossing the threshold of 29. At least he was doing all his radio calls for 06 perfectly.
I for one would not miss Wonderboom if ATNS was to leave I just hope you have full life insurance as you may need it when we are gone.
ATNS cannot help that the rest of the commercial aviation fraternity does not want us to subsidise the training airports. CAA almost suspended ATNS's licence at Wonderboom because the airport cannot provide the minimum required Met equipment. QNH is read inside the tower at the back of the console. Wind speed and direction is measured on the tower roof. The radio equipment belongs to the Metro and has not been replaced since 1992.
We have to make a phone call the JHB approach for each and every IF starter and also for their release. In the last year the IF flights have doubled. Not to mention the phone calls to and from Rand, Waterkloof, Lanseria, Central and Swartkop to liaise your flights between us and them. Also remember that there are only 4 ATC's so this means that there is only 1 person on duty doing all of this. Movement wise Wonderboom reduced a little in training flights due to the training restriction but still manages only 30 movements a day less than Rand. This with an average of less than 40 percent utilisation of the useable slots by the ATO's. Don't forget that you don't book a slot with the tower each ATO has his own allocated slots that he can use. That is the training movements accounted for but in Total movements Wonderboom is No2 in the country to JHB with Rand a close 3rd. (Yes Athol, Rand also counts training flights as 2 movements so too does every other ATNS unit in SA just as they do in the States, OZ and the rest of the world, but I'm sure your "study" will also reflect this).
AVI8TOR
You are right a few years ago there were quite a few more in the circuit but then you had people like Q4, Henry, Kakemas and the late Charles as instructors that actually could do more than 1 thing at a time. The quality of SPL's that went solo was of a high standard and we hardly had to work to keep 5 happy in the circuit. These days I work my ass off with only 3 in the circuit as the basics aren't taught.
Now you clear someone in from the GF directly onto the base and he f's it up and joins early downwind. Ask a person for his endurance and he responds that he "are flying a 172". Ask him again and he says "yes". Change the runway from 29 to 11 and ask 2 solo students to do a 180 on the downwind and they both do 360 orbits and continue on the downwind for 29. Students call their aircraft callsigns as "Indigo Wiki Ester".
If someone does report the traffic in sight and you tell him to follow him to final he ends up turning in ahead of the traffic he reported in sight. Yes you can sometimes missident traffic but when you are only 2 in the circuit then it is not so funny anymore. Students think it's a joke if they go onto the runway without a clearance. What was it "I am just a student I didn't know". Yes you didn't know beacuse you weren't taught that this is life or death and not a game.
Spoke to a wanabe instructor yesterday who can't believe that what he is learning to teach others is what he should have been taught in the first instance. WTF?
We have CTR violations daily runway incursions every other day and altitude busts is a common occurence. The circuit is flown between 4800 and 5500 feet which necessitates the odd avoiding action from those that actually fly at 5100 feet but who cares it's just Wonderboom and the ATC's are the D$#ks.
Yes Avi8tor bring back the good old days I just hope it's sooner rather than later. Walked into the tower the other day just in time to hear 2 helicopter pilots KaK theselves as a Seneca departed off runway 24 with both of them at 4800feet on the left downwind for 29. Missed them both by an ants ballhair and he did not even acknowledge their existence. Must have had the radio on the other frequency. Just like the time he landed a Van at night on 11 with 29 active with 4 in the circuit. That time he blamed the co-pilot for not selecting Wonderboom's frequency wonder what the excuse would be this time. Then he thought it was unmanned never mind it was 6pm in the middle of the week.
Or the crop duster that departs and lands on 06 in the middle of the night (After ATC hours) with 4 in the circuit on runway 29. No problem you might say. Only thing is there are no lights on 24/06 and instead of 06 he was a little confused and he landed on 24. probably saw the landing light of the one on final so he decided to turn left to reposition on final for 24 and give the one a chance to land. Ended up missing the one on downwind by a few feet and then proceeded to land on 24 passing just ahead of another on crossing the threshold of 29. At least he was doing all his radio calls for 06 perfectly.
I for one would not miss Wonderboom if ATNS was to leave I just hope you have full life insurance as you may need it when we are gone.
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Hey - all instructors are at the bottom of the food chain and have always been in the 'under 21 with 200hrs group', I was.
I ask again, if you are short staffed, why all the talking rubbish on the radio? I seem to remember there was always only 4 controllers at the 'boom????
Expidite the traffic!!!! Scrap slots as a rubbish idea!!! Leave the choppers alone, only time you need to be interested in them is for the auto's.
Its time for a big meeting with the industry, and ATC do the LISTENING!!!!
I ask again, if you are short staffed, why all the talking rubbish on the radio? I seem to remember there was always only 4 controllers at the 'boom????
Expidite the traffic!!!! Scrap slots as a rubbish idea!!! Leave the choppers alone, only time you need to be interested in them is for the auto's.
Its time for a big meeting with the industry, and ATC do the LISTENING!!!!
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stuuupid people
fantastic idea! I've been reading all the complaints and sounds like a huge comms gap. Everybody's got problems, boo-hoo. How about solving some together rather than pointing "the finger". Doesn't look like thats been helping.
WTF lets blame ATC, pilots, Metro, SA, the world. I have the answer and everyody else is stuuuupid.
Almost forgot to say that : " I'm the bomb"
WTF lets blame ATC, pilots, Metro, SA, the world. I have the answer and everyody else is stuuuupid.
Almost forgot to say that : " I'm the bomb"
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I have the answer and everyody else is stuuuupid
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Lay the blame where it needs to be laid and don't blame the ATC's for the restriction on the frequency due to the contract that stipulates 8 on frequency
Would you care to explain that sentence? Who came up with that magical number? Its not that many aeroplanes....Is that rule followed by all the ATCOs or do some ignore it?
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126,7
8 is the aiming point and one does take into consideration that you may have 5 departures and 4 inbounds that will be off the frequency in less than 10 minutes. So you'll allow 2 or so more on frequency. Having an aiming point in stead of a limited number of movements per hour is a lot more achievable. Busy hours are normally anything between 70 and 100+ and to try and keep a score on the amount already handled would be impossible in any case.
8 is the aiming point and one does take into consideration that you may have 5 departures and 4 inbounds that will be off the frequency in less than 10 minutes. So you'll allow 2 or so more on frequency. Having an aiming point in stead of a limited number of movements per hour is a lot more achievable. Busy hours are normally anything between 70 and 100+ and to try and keep a score on the amount already handled would be impossible in any case.
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Well, I for one appreciate the ATC's point of view, thanks Boomslang. It always helps to have some perspective. And I agree that it sounds like some radio procedures and basic flying skills could do with improvement. Like you say, it's not a game, and lately I've seen some attitudes that need an adjustment in that regard.
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"Indigo Wiki Ester"
Boomslang - Think it's time you moved on/up and let those Idiots of Tshwane Metro sort out their own crap.
Will be listening out for your voice in the near future...
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Unfortunately its true. Just after 12:30 an Aztec lost an engine and suffered a wing drop. Apparently the pilot is in critical condition. Just hope that he will be okay.
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And please also note who was responsible for pressing that big red button that makes the siren go off for the emergency services...
ATC's also heard what their increase will be this year - so expect a lot of 'happy' voices on the air...
ATC's also heard what their increase will be this year - so expect a lot of 'happy' voices on the air...
Last edited by RadarMaggot; 29th May 2008 at 18:30. Reason: Adding some comment
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Hey Maggot,
You do your self, your profession and your peers a disservice by soliciting praise for simply doing your job – pushing the big red button is your job nothing more nothing less, it is what you are paid to do.
It sounds like somebody has had an accident - show some restraint in puffing up your chest and try to walk a mile in the victim’s shoes.
You do your self, your profession and your peers a disservice by soliciting praise for simply doing your job – pushing the big red button is your job nothing more nothing less, it is what you are paid to do.
It sounds like somebody has had an accident - show some restraint in puffing up your chest and try to walk a mile in the victim’s shoes.
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I believe his tone was more 'you see, we all have a part to play in this', perhaps partly as a counterpoint to a great deal of the rest of the thread, which was more the pilot-centric idea that 'they (ATC) exist because of us (uber-cool Pilots)'.
Again, we should be on the same side. Believe me, having worked up north, you really need somebody in the tower pressing the red button, hopefully with some well trained people responding. And his point regarding salaries is important too. Shortstaffing, high staff turnover (and therefore inexperienced personnel) are the result of badly planned career paths and salaries by the managers who should have the foresight to know better.
Again, we should be on the same side. Believe me, having worked up north, you really need somebody in the tower pressing the red button, hopefully with some well trained people responding. And his point regarding salaries is important too. Shortstaffing, high staff turnover (and therefore inexperienced personnel) are the result of badly planned career paths and salaries by the managers who should have the foresight to know better.