SAA in Lusaka incident
Paxing All Over The World
The insurance companies must be very pleased that pax was filming. If the thick red line painted on the ground, that is visible at the bottom of the window, is the dividing line between space for a/c and space for vehicles, then it would appear that the catering truck was in his correct zone. Also, when the camera looks back at the fallen truck, it seems that it was parked nose-in to the kerb as far as it could go - presuming that it was supposed to be parked in that place, of course. I sit to be corrected.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Zone of Alienation
Age: 79
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe the impact felt was not substantial, but from the camera movement it looks as if it was. The strange thing is the crew continue their taxi as if nothing happened!
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Western Cape
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm very surprised that the a/c flew back to Joburg for repairs. How does one know that the main spar didn't get damaged pushing a truck onto it's side. A/c aren't designed for such a load surely?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 6°N 3°E
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm very surprised that the a/c flew back to Joburg for repairs. How does one know that the main spar didn't get damaged pushing a truck onto it's side. A/c aren't designed for such a load surely?
Paxing All Over The World
If the catering truck was empty, then it would not have weighed much. Also, the point of collision was right at the top of the truck and so maximum leverage would have been exerted.
Join Date: Jan 1998
Location: Where the job is!
Posts: 451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those not familiar with FLLS, the red line marks the edge of the apron. The area between the red line and the white line is a service road used by emergency vehicles, VIP vehicles, Air BP fuel trucks, tractors pulling luggage carts or portable staircases, etc. You will note it has pedestrian crossing zebra stripes from the buildings. Beyond the white line is where various airport equipment and vehicles are parked. You can see many items parked in the demarcated areas. If the target truck was slightly over the white line then it was intruding on to the service roadway, not on to the apron.
Because some of the locals were not known for their driving skills, when I parked near the terminal buildings I always left a suitable space between my aircraft and the red line in case of any wayward vehicles. I will admit that my left wing did cross the red line sometimes when turning but I always ensured that there were no vehicles about to pass by. I preferred to park on the other side of the apron where there was less risk of being hit.
Because some of the locals were not known for their driving skills, when I parked near the terminal buildings I always left a suitable space between my aircraft and the red line in case of any wayward vehicles. I will admit that my left wing did cross the red line sometimes when turning but I always ensured that there were no vehicles about to pass by. I preferred to park on the other side of the apron where there was less risk of being hit.
Last edited by Carrier; 28th Dec 2007 at 19:29.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Western Cape
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wings are designed to withstand forces in the vertical plane, ie. positive and negative g's, not forces in the horizontal plane. By hitting the tip of the wing, maximum leverage would have also been exerted on the wing.
If it was me, I don't think I would have been too happy to take the a/c back to base, unless a proper assessment was done. How does assess if there was any damage to the root of the aircraft, unless panels are removed and X-rays conducted. Somehow I doubt all this would have been done. Knocking over a truck like that, would have put quite a lot of stress on the wing.
What do the mechanical engineer boffs think?
If it was me, I don't think I would have been too happy to take the a/c back to base, unless a proper assessment was done. How does assess if there was any damage to the root of the aircraft, unless panels are removed and X-rays conducted. Somehow I doubt all this would have been done. Knocking over a truck like that, would have put quite a lot of stress on the wing.
What do the mechanical engineer boffs think?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: KwaZulu Natal
Age: 65
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Replies to posts 27 & 28,
Yes I'm sure wings are designed for forces in both directions but in "thrust = drag" is this not in equilibrium? please correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyway these forces are usually gradual, this Incidental force was by no means not. I cannot comment on the release of the Aircraft as fit or Airworthy to make the return trip but look at it this way guys, In view of what South African aviation has gone through in the past few weeks in the press you can be sure someone has put their balls on the chopping block to deem this aircraft safe.
This impact made what appears to be ( though probably costly ) fairly minor damage at the almost extremety of the wing which IMHO is the weakest point. I would assume that the that the impact was absorbed along the wings length and that there is no major structural damage elsewhere. Why else would it be allowed home?
Yes I'm sure wings are designed for forces in both directions but in "thrust = drag" is this not in equilibrium? please correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyway these forces are usually gradual, this Incidental force was by no means not. I cannot comment on the release of the Aircraft as fit or Airworthy to make the return trip but look at it this way guys, In view of what South African aviation has gone through in the past few weeks in the press you can be sure someone has put their balls on the chopping block to deem this aircraft safe.
This impact made what appears to be ( though probably costly ) fairly minor damage at the almost extremety of the wing which IMHO is the weakest point. I would assume that the that the impact was absorbed along the wings length and that there is no major structural damage elsewhere. Why else would it be allowed home?
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: between rocks and hard places
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The insurance companies must be very pleased that pax was filming.
Purely academic question, forgetting for a moment who did what, or the behavioural interactions (ie human drama) that will inevitably follow:
Considering the forces involved - momentums, leverage optimum at the top of the truck, it being stationary but not immovable (as opposed to, say, hitting a building) etc., would this incidental impact (low speed/high mass) be all that different in its effect on the wing than a birdstrike at high speed (high speed/low mass)? Anyone?
This may help clarify the sensibility of the decision to proceed with flight.
Paxing All Over The World
In view of what South African aviation has gone through in the past few weeks in the press you can be sure someone has put their balls on the chopping block to deem this aircraft safe.
Did the a/c return that same day? Was the return on schedule? Was the return a commercial rotation or a ferry?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 6°N 3°E
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes I'm sure wings are designed for forces in both directions but in "thrust = drag" is this not in equilibrium? please correct me if I'm wrong.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Germany
Age: 76
Posts: 1,561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is easy to be wise after the fact. If you drive around looking over your shoulder you may just run over something right in front of you!
I am sure someone will be out there running around with a tape measure, seeing just how far it is from the centreline of the taxiway to the red line, white line, etcetera.
Who knows? It might be that there is a height restriction for vehicles parked there.
The Air Force guys I used to fly with had a saying about how you could collect ten "Attaboy!"s and trade them for one "Go get 'em!" Ten of those earned you the ultimate, one "Well done!" But one "Aw, sh1t!" cancelled the lot!
I am sure someone will be out there running around with a tape measure, seeing just how far it is from the centreline of the taxiway to the red line, white line, etcetera.
Who knows? It might be that there is a height restriction for vehicles parked there.
The Air Force guys I used to fly with had a saying about how you could collect ten "Attaboy!"s and trade them for one "Go get 'em!" Ten of those earned you the ultimate, one "Well done!" But one "Aw, sh1t!" cancelled the lot!
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Lusaka and Joburg
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Taxing at FLLS
Carrier is correct.
Lusaka is my home base and I now fly in as SLF 2/3/4 times a month. I fly in with both SAA and Q3. That is the first time I have EVER seen a taxi approach like that. If I had been in that window seat I would have been very uncomfortable as soon as we made the turn.
The Red Line is very clearly the designated edge of the apron with no part of the aircraft meant to be over it. They were very lucky that the vehicle they hit was light weight. There is often some very substanial apron equipment in the white zone that could have taken the tip right off!
With regard to marshalling it is more than a year since I was actually involved, but I dont ever remember NOT seeing a marshal lining up the arriving jets. Couple of years ago they were sometimes late (for our B1900s) -trotting out as the aircraft was turning on to the apron.
Lusaka is my home base and I now fly in as SLF 2/3/4 times a month. I fly in with both SAA and Q3. That is the first time I have EVER seen a taxi approach like that. If I had been in that window seat I would have been very uncomfortable as soon as we made the turn.
The Red Line is very clearly the designated edge of the apron with no part of the aircraft meant to be over it. They were very lucky that the vehicle they hit was light weight. There is often some very substanial apron equipment in the white zone that could have taken the tip right off!
With regard to marshalling it is more than a year since I was actually involved, but I dont ever remember NOT seeing a marshal lining up the arriving jets. Couple of years ago they were sometimes late (for our B1900s) -trotting out as the aircraft was turning on to the apron.
Paxing All Over The World
The Red Line is very clearly the designated edge of the apron with no part of the aircraft meant to be over it.
Yet, the good news is that there is no report of anyone being injured. It is not unknown for workers to stand alongside tall vehicles to take shade from the sun, whilst waiting for the next arrival. The truck could easily have been pushed over onto such people, or seriously hurt any sitting on the tailgate. So this is a good warning and will probably find it's way into the training schools.
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Lusaka and Joburg
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Taxing at Lusaka
I am bringing this back to the top again and would request some comment from regular users of Lusaka. Carrier??
If you go to this same thread that is running in in the "Rumours" board there are two vital bits of information that are not on our 'African' thread.
1. There is NO ICAO designation for Red Lines being the edge of the apron.
2. You cannot follow the Taxi Guide Lines painted on the apron without going over the the Red Line especially with a 800.
As a regular user of Lusaka as both an Operator and Pilot I must now apologise for my post about the Red Line!!! It would appear that we are operating on a 'local use' rule.
This definately needs to be queried with Lusaka Airports Authority and Zambia DCA which I shall be doing on my next stay. I will report back
If you go to this same thread that is running in in the "Rumours" board there are two vital bits of information that are not on our 'African' thread.
1. There is NO ICAO designation for Red Lines being the edge of the apron.
2. You cannot follow the Taxi Guide Lines painted on the apron without going over the the Red Line especially with a 800.
As a regular user of Lusaka as both an Operator and Pilot I must now apologise for my post about the Red Line!!! It would appear that we are operating on a 'local use' rule.
This definately needs to be queried with Lusaka Airports Authority and Zambia DCA which I shall be doing on my next stay. I will report back
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: South Africa
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Bean 
You'll see from this picture that there is no way to get an -800 to park like this without pushing it back into that position or to let the wing cross the red line.
The problem is really the design of the bays. I'll bet that SAA will start parking exactly parallel to the buildings ASAP.
You'll see from this picture that there is no way to get an -800 to park like this without pushing it back into that position or to let the wing cross the red line.
The problem is really the design of the bays. I'll bet that SAA will start parking exactly parallel to the buildings ASAP.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: South Africa
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
planecrazy
You miss the point completely, you arrogant
At least do the rest of the posters the courtesy of reading the entire thread. The whole debate about the red line came because an earlier poster said that the aircraft was not allowed to cross the red line.
We bleed for you when you struggle to taxi your French plastic toy in Heathrow. You will not find a post that said the captain was not responsible. The rest of the readers here try to learn something.
But then again, some people cannot be taught anything.............
You miss the point completely, you arrogant
At least do the rest of the posters the courtesy of reading the entire thread. The whole debate about the red line came because an earlier poster said that the aircraft was not allowed to cross the red line.
We bleed for you when you struggle to taxi your French plastic toy in Heathrow. You will not find a post that said the captain was not responsible. The rest of the readers here try to learn something.
But then again, some people cannot be taught anything.............
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Hilton, Sheraton or Marriott
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gotta agree with Nugs - the guy isn't normally this swollen-headed but wow, he's seriously impressed with himself today.
There but for the grace................. In any size airplane.
Nuff said.
4HP
There but for the grace................. In any size airplane.
Nuff said.
4HP