Pilots Lisence vs. Diploma vs. Degree
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Flyer
The time it takes to get a 'heavy' on ones ATPL is just time doing the job. It is not like it is studying or carrying out research and writing dissertations.
We all enjoy the job we do, but we should accept it for what it is, an Airline Transport Pilots Licence, not a BA or MBA or BSc or Phd, its just an ATPL.
The time it takes to get a 'heavy' on ones ATPL is just time doing the job. It is not like it is studying or carrying out research and writing dissertations.
We all enjoy the job we do, but we should accept it for what it is, an Airline Transport Pilots Licence, not a BA or MBA or BSc or Phd, its just an ATPL.
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Reasons why flightcrew are not treated as professional
I have been reading these posts, as well as various others on similar subjects. There seems to be a general concern among flightcrew regarding this topic. They generally feel that they are not recognized as professional, neither does their salaries increase as a professional person's would. The solution to this is not as obvious as one might think, since one needs to look at both sides of the coin (from both the crew and the industry side). I feel I am qualified since I have both professional and pilot qualifications Here are a few points to ponder:
* Pilots feel they should be regarded as professionals. This is true, since they
are expected to work professionally at all times.
* Pilots feel their qualifications should be regarded as a degree. This is not
necessarily true. Even though it is hard work to become a pilot. The
academic standard and sheer workload is not nearly as much as a four
year degree in Engineering for example. We pilots are lucky that all the
questions are multichoice.
* Pilots do carry the tremendous responsibility of people's lives when they
are flying. Even though some professions like engineers may have a legal
appointment, they rarely die with their subordinates (pax) if something
goes wrong.
* The industry expects pilots to pay for their own ratings even after they
gained their licenses. I do not agree with this, since the pilot has already
spent a fortune on just getting qualified to get a low time job. Expecting
pilots to pay to work at a company is just wrong. If I apply for a job and
they tell me I need to pay money to work there, I will show them the
bird.
From the industry side, the following points are valid:
* We pilots like the attention that comes with the job. We also like to be the best. As such, we will always strive to fly the newest and best aircraft. In order to do this, the pilots will move on as soon as they have enough experience. The industry knows this, that is why they will keep on regarding pilots as a temporary expense. As such, the salaries will be as low as possible. They are also no willing to invest a large amount of money into someone who will only be at the company for a year or two.
* In another type of professional job, the salary normally grows because
the person has more experience that can be utilized in other positions. In
other words, the longer you work, the more valuable you are to the
company. You can be a manager and bring in more value to the company
than when you were first employed. When you are first employed as a
pilot, you fly the aircraft, as you gain experience, you become better,
but you still only fly the aircraft. You feel that you deserve a raise based
on your hours, but the company feels that you are still doing the same
job that you did when you started there. You cannot be employed in
another position, and you will not be happy there, because you want to
fly. You never went to flight school because you want to manage a
charter company one day.
I hope these few thoughts provide some insight into a much debated topic.
Regards and happy landings
Schmieglie
* Pilots feel they should be regarded as professionals. This is true, since they
are expected to work professionally at all times.
* Pilots feel their qualifications should be regarded as a degree. This is not
necessarily true. Even though it is hard work to become a pilot. The
academic standard and sheer workload is not nearly as much as a four
year degree in Engineering for example. We pilots are lucky that all the
questions are multichoice.
* Pilots do carry the tremendous responsibility of people's lives when they
are flying. Even though some professions like engineers may have a legal
appointment, they rarely die with their subordinates (pax) if something
goes wrong.
* The industry expects pilots to pay for their own ratings even after they
gained their licenses. I do not agree with this, since the pilot has already
spent a fortune on just getting qualified to get a low time job. Expecting
pilots to pay to work at a company is just wrong. If I apply for a job and
they tell me I need to pay money to work there, I will show them the
bird.
From the industry side, the following points are valid:
* We pilots like the attention that comes with the job. We also like to be the best. As such, we will always strive to fly the newest and best aircraft. In order to do this, the pilots will move on as soon as they have enough experience. The industry knows this, that is why they will keep on regarding pilots as a temporary expense. As such, the salaries will be as low as possible. They are also no willing to invest a large amount of money into someone who will only be at the company for a year or two.
* In another type of professional job, the salary normally grows because
the person has more experience that can be utilized in other positions. In
other words, the longer you work, the more valuable you are to the
company. You can be a manager and bring in more value to the company
than when you were first employed. When you are first employed as a
pilot, you fly the aircraft, as you gain experience, you become better,
but you still only fly the aircraft. You feel that you deserve a raise based
on your hours, but the company feels that you are still doing the same
job that you did when you started there. You cannot be employed in
another position, and you will not be happy there, because you want to
fly. You never went to flight school because you want to manage a
charter company one day.
I hope these few thoughts provide some insight into a much debated topic.
Regards and happy landings
Schmieglie
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If my memory servers me correctly, an ATPL with a certain amount of command hours is classified as a "RVQ-13" by the state. RVQ13 is an equivalency rating of matric plus 3 years formal education, and is used by the government to compare tertiary education between Varsities, Technicons on Industry specific certifications. A degree is RVQ13, as is a Tech diploma, certain on the job training programs, and lots of IT international certifications.
So, at least in the Govenments eyes, an Airline Capt has a degree equivalent education
So, at least in the Govenments eyes, an Airline Capt has a degree equivalent education
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I have always wondered why a commercial license/instructors rating/airline transport license is not granted the same recognition as tertiary qualifications such as degrees and diplomas.
as an aside I also have an undergraduate degree and am able to compare work loads etc and by the time you have your ATP I reckon you will have put some serious studying hours in, equaling or nearly equaling a 3-year degree
I don't know why some pilots want to compare us with graduates and other professionals. We are professional pilots and should be proud of that fact alone. The same goes for pay. We are worth what we are worth. Sometimes pilots are scarce and we are worth a lot. Other times, work is scarce and we are worth less. It doesn't matter what doctors, lawyers and engineers earn. They can't fly and we can't do their jobs.
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Engineering degrees
Say Engineering to a English layman and they think of the person who services your boiler or fixes your car. 
Just because you have a degree it doesn't mean you are recognised for it. A Proffessional Engineer with many years services that is liable for large projects and runs the risk of jail in a foreign country if he screws up is still regarded as an engineer, which as I said in many peoples eyes is someone who turns a spanner...
At least a pilot in many peoples eyes is still clearly a pilot and despite what some may think this is highly respected by the masses.
Be proud to say that you are a highly qualified pilot as most people out of the cockpit think CPL, ATPL.... are just letters and may as well be MEng or Phd.
Oh and yes I am an engineer
and a pilot 
.
Just because you have a degree it doesn't mean you are recognised for it. A Proffessional Engineer with many years services that is liable for large projects and runs the risk of jail in a foreign country if he screws up is still regarded as an engineer, which as I said in many peoples eyes is someone who turns a spanner...
At least a pilot in many peoples eyes is still clearly a pilot and despite what some may think this is highly respected by the masses.
Be proud to say that you are a highly qualified pilot as most people out of the cockpit think CPL, ATPL.... are just letters and may as well be MEng or Phd.
Oh and yes I am an engineer
and a pilot .
Está servira para distraerle.
It's an unfortunate but probably true fact that these days a South African university qualification, or a pilot's licence for that matter, are indicative of nothing more than an ability to achieve nothing very much whilst simply awaiting the foregone results of reflective advantage. As such, one might just as well mail order the piece of parchment from Harare with Ebagum's signature on the flapping seal for all the international credence that such variations on the theme of Bronco Lane might afford.
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The reason it's not recognised is because you can obtain the qualification without finishing school, maybe you should try doing a degree to compare the two.
At best it should be the same as a tech diploma, maybe that's too generous.
At best it should be the same as a tech diploma, maybe that's too generous.
Under one defintion, a professional is one who is paid to work, as opposed to an amateur who "does it" for fun - perhaps the best meaning in the aviation context.
.
The word has another meaning that refers to the responsibility for the professionals advice and decisions. A doctor, laywer, accountant and consulting engineer are all required to carry professional indemnity insurance. Here in Australia, it is typically $10m cover per claim. A broker told me that a professional consulting engineer who has more than two PI claims against him/her is unlikley to be able to get further cover - bye bye career!
.
This is in contrast to other occupations claiming to be professional, such as real eatate agents, who carry very little responsibility for their advice. Unfortunately, people such as these have corrupted the meaning of the word to the point that anyone who wears a tie & sits in front of a computer now call themselves "professional"
.
The word has another meaning that refers to the responsibility for the professionals advice and decisions. A doctor, laywer, accountant and consulting engineer are all required to carry professional indemnity insurance. Here in Australia, it is typically $10m cover per claim. A broker told me that a professional consulting engineer who has more than two PI claims against him/her is unlikley to be able to get further cover - bye bye career!
.
This is in contrast to other occupations claiming to be professional, such as real eatate agents, who carry very little responsibility for their advice. Unfortunately, people such as these have corrupted the meaning of the word to the point that anyone who wears a tie & sits in front of a computer now call themselves "professional"
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Gyro
although I do thank you for correcting my spelling, at least I dont speak fluent Bulls
it
Any Moron can get an ATP....it just takes time and effort, not everyone can get a degree, that takes a lot more time and a lot more effort, and a few years off your life
Someone told me the other day that the SA Education Department have recognised a SA ATP licence the equivalent of a Honours Degree. JB, I do agree with that you are saying.
itAny Moron can get an ATP....it just takes time and effort, not everyone can get a degree, that takes a lot more time and a lot more effort, and a few years off your life
Está servira para distraerle.
One of the foundation stones of the Open University is that professional men and women should be able to work while furthering their education. The university bestows both BAs and MAs upon completion of the relevant and internationally recognised courses. It just takes a little longer than the full tilt, residential, beer swilling, fornicating variety. But then the concept is directed at mature men and women.
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A dedicated person can complete a degree part time whilst working.
You can do Law part-time, but at some stage you will have to do the article phase and/or write the bench exams, and believe me, those cannot be compared to ATP subjects.
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This years UCT rates are about R24,000 tuition fees for the year. Average that out over 4 years, and you are looking at about R100,000 for the degree. If you stay in res, add another R25,000 per year, so another R100,000. All in all, you are looking at walking out of varsity having spent about R200,000 to sit in the classes, write the exams, eat their food, and sleep in their beds.
In addition to this, most natural sciences related careers require some sort of industry training/certification, so add to this figure at least two years worth of on the job training at minimum wage, plus expensive international certification exams. Companies dont do this training for free, so most grads are expected to sign training bonds of at least two years post qualification. So, in summary, it takes 8 - 10 years before you start earning decent money and you certifications are paid for. If you have taken a student loan to pay for this, starting varsity at 18 means that most succesful sciences grads will only be debt free and beginning to make money round about their 30th birthday. This is round about the time the whole cycle starts again because to get anywhere in engineering you need a masters of something degree (be it a MBA or MSc)...
In addition to this, most natural sciences related careers require some sort of industry training/certification, so add to this figure at least two years worth of on the job training at minimum wage, plus expensive international certification exams. Companies dont do this training for free, so most grads are expected to sign training bonds of at least two years post qualification. So, in summary, it takes 8 - 10 years before you start earning decent money and you certifications are paid for. If you have taken a student loan to pay for this, starting varsity at 18 means that most succesful sciences grads will only be debt free and beginning to make money round about their 30th birthday. This is round about the time the whole cycle starts again because to get anywhere in engineering you need a masters of something degree (be it a MBA or MSc)...
Está servira para distraerle.
Oh well!
In the UK from start up to frozen ATPL apparently costs about £50,000. That's roughly SAR750,000 and that's without eating or sleeping.
In financial terms then, an ATPL must be approaching a doctorate.
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