SAA, the chop has started
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If SAA had to loose 25% of their pilots in 1yr (like Comair) there would be no chance of the training section keeping up. It would mean 200 new intakes in 1 yr.
SAA pilot turnover-almost nil
Other local carriers- very big percentages
Deduction: Whose salaries need to be adjusted? SAA's or everybody elses?
If SAA had to loose 25% of their pilots in 1yr (like Comair) there would be no chance of the training section keeping up. It would mean 200 new intakes in 1 yr.
SAA pilot turnover-almost nil
Other local carriers- very big percentages
Deduction: Whose salaries need to be adjusted? SAA's or everybody elses?
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It seems this thread would have a lot more credibility if people could just work out the difference between the words lose and loose.
Quite right Avi8tor you did not mention pilot's salaries you only said
. 
(also it's A new SAA Captain not an)
Now, I'm not an accountant or a Deskjockey but as far as I know TCE does have something to do with salaries. No?
When all this is over we will only have worse clowns running the show because sure as God made little apples the competent ones are going to be fighting to get in the line for the packages.
Jetnut you are one of those guys who would be better off keeping quiet and letting us all think you are a moron, but no - you have to post and then remove all doubt. Well played.
Quite right Avi8tor you did not mention pilot's salaries you only said
The TCE of an new SAA captain is about twice that at Emirates Captain
(also it's A new SAA Captain not an)Now, I'm not an accountant or a Deskjockey but as far as I know TCE does have something to do with salaries. No?
When all this is over we will only have worse clowns running the show because sure as God made little apples the competent ones are going to be fighting to get in the line for the packages.
Jetnut you are one of those guys who would be better off keeping quiet and letting us all think you are a moron, but no - you have to post and then remove all doubt. Well played.
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Well, firstly I feel for all involved - Retrenchments are never easy to digest.
However, I have been part and seen a few other Professional Companies (much larger than SAA and outside of Aviation), stand at the brink of extinction before going this route.
As mentioned in another (but similar thread), a few months ago, this used to be known and branded as Business Process Re-Engineering. Even then consultants were making good $'s from it, but most of the companies involved then are still around and profitable today...
Those "Super" Managers or "others" usually leave at their own peril, when their ambitions outstrip that of the said company. Further then retrenchments is an adequate tool to "push" the old/dead wood down the river.
Those remaining will rise to the occasion, or leave at their own peril when they "crack" under the new productivity pressure.
If anyone at SAA is serious about business (and only business), there is NO reason why any Flight Deck (except during training), should consist of more than 1 P1, 1 P2 and 1 P3. Why this 
of P1's flying as P3's etc..?
Somewhere another P1 must be in the employ of SAA and doing the job of the P1 jolling around as a P3.
Business Economics 101 says Accountants will get seriously pissed off by this (not to mention other unions within SAA).
However, I have been part and seen a few other Professional Companies (much larger than SAA and outside of Aviation), stand at the brink of extinction before going this route.
As mentioned in another (but similar thread), a few months ago, this used to be known and branded as Business Process Re-Engineering. Even then consultants were making good $'s from it, but most of the companies involved then are still around and profitable today...
Those "Super" Managers or "others" usually leave at their own peril, when their ambitions outstrip that of the said company. Further then retrenchments is an adequate tool to "push" the old/dead wood down the river.
Those remaining will rise to the occasion, or leave at their own peril when they "crack" under the new productivity pressure.
Its a business, not a flying club.
of P1's flying as P3's etc..?Somewhere another P1 must be in the employ of SAA and doing the job of the P1 jolling around as a P3.
Business Economics 101 says Accountants will get seriously pissed off by this (not to mention other unions within SAA).
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SAA Pilot Productivity
I personally flew 892 hours last year. To me, that is being productive. A lot of the Captains timed out at 900 hours last year and sat on their butts for the last few weeks of 2006. I think there are a few readers out there who can't differentiate a fact from a rumour. Its always so easy to quote an anonymous bloke in the pub who said this and that.
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Me? I am hoping for NOTHING over 300 hrs this year. But I DONT work for a state controller loss maker. 
This statement applies to ALL of SAA, top to bottom, all departments. And please, I am not suggesting that ONLY the Flight Ops salaries are reviewed, it has to start right at the top, all the way down to the cleaners.
And remember productivity is working SMARTER not HARDER!!!
As I have said before, as SAA, better or worse dominates the industry in SA, getting its house in order will benifit ALL pilots in SA.
If SAA is forced to run a real business, costs have to come down. If that means pay cuts for some, so be it.
If the affected people find they can do better elsewhere, they leave. Then everybody moves up the food chain. It will have a threefold effect.
- Commands come quicker. So the people see MORE money quicker.
- If the other airlines can't retain experienced crew, they will pay more.
- It will also open up more jobs for the young guys at the bottom of the food chain.
The whammie here that all this is done WITHOUT the tax payer. It's called globalisation.
If SAAPA/SAA management were really on the ball, they would look at 'B' scales like Cathay did a few yrs ago. The costs are reduced over time, and nobody sees a pay 'cut', 'cause its money they never earned.
You gotta love capitalism and the free market.
For years, its been a well known fact that SAA is way over paid and way under worked.
And remember productivity is working SMARTER not HARDER!!!
As I have said before, as SAA, better or worse dominates the industry in SA, getting its house in order will benifit ALL pilots in SA.
If SAA is forced to run a real business, costs have to come down. If that means pay cuts for some, so be it.
If the affected people find they can do better elsewhere, they leave. Then everybody moves up the food chain. It will have a threefold effect.
- Commands come quicker. So the people see MORE money quicker.
- If the other airlines can't retain experienced crew, they will pay more.
- It will also open up more jobs for the young guys at the bottom of the food chain.
The whammie here that all this is done WITHOUT the tax payer. It's called globalisation.
If SAAPA/SAA management were really on the ball, they would look at 'B' scales like Cathay did a few yrs ago. The costs are reduced over time, and nobody sees a pay 'cut', 'cause its money they never earned.
You gotta love capitalism and the free market.
Last edited by Avi8tor; 26th Jul 2007 at 07:27.
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I personally flew 892 hours last year. To me, that is being productive. A lot of the Captains timed out at 900 hours
Oh, and but the way, why did they sit for the last few weeks? You can fly to 1000hrs.
If you have stats, please provide. I would hate facts to get in the way of a good argument.
P.S. This is NOT a personal attack on ANY SAA captains. Looking for facts here.
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Avi8tor, I am now humbled. I have met the Messiah, (all be it on the internet), he lives in Dubai (Who would have guessed). You have such a great grasp of all things complex. How foolish of us mere mortals to believe that we ought to work for a reasonable wage.
I for one shall hence forth donate 90% of my salary to charity, or even better, back to the tax coffers. Thank you for allowing me to see the light. In all my years, I thought globalization was an entirely different thing. My bad.
Perhaps you should start a University in SA, teaching simple things like business economics. Or perhaps you could just issue your students stupid pills, as it seems you have an endless supply of them........
I for one shall hence forth donate 90% of my salary to charity, or even better, back to the tax coffers. Thank you for allowing me to see the light. In all my years, I thought globalization was an entirely different thing. My bad.
Perhaps you should start a University in SA, teaching simple things like business economics. Or perhaps you could just issue your students stupid pills, as it seems you have an endless supply of them........
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I love when they dont have the arguments, they get personal. Is it something they teach on conversion from mere mortal to gods gift to aviation? ........
I say again, its a business not a flying club.
What's your solution wisea?
I say again, its a business not a flying club.
What's your solution wisea
?
Last edited by Avi8tor; 26th Jul 2007 at 07:35.
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Hey Avi8tor, why don't you come work for SAA and we'll start a B scale, JUST FOR YOU!! Or maybe you are personally so worthless that SAA won't have to pay you at all?
Thread Starter
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SOME MORE INFO
As indicated in the business plan the following initiatives may
impact on headcount:
Cabin Crew:
Reduction of crew complements on A340’s
Reduction of one SCCM on A340’s
Exiting of the B744 from the fleet.
Pilots:
The closure of the Durban base
Airport Employees:
The One Stop Shop initiative may have an impact on
headcount
Call Centre Employees:
The combining of the call centres may have an impact on
headcount
Technical Employees:
The exiting of the B747-400 fleet
The possibility of headcount reductions in SAA Cargo and
support services are being investigated and will be discussed
with you when the information is ready.
The number of employees affected and the job
categories in which they are employed
Proposed Selection Criteria:
The Company envisages applying the following criteria for Cabin Crew, Ground and Technical employees:
Service, attendance and employment record, and
FIFO where employees qualify for early retirement
Employment Equity principles will be applied in conjunction with the criteria above
Pilots will be selected in terms of the Regulating Agreement with due consideration of Employment Equity principles.
E
ps (- 6 X B744 BUT + 3 X A343 + 2 X B733C + Comair/Kulula fleet)
As indicated in the business plan the following initiatives may
impact on headcount:
Cabin Crew:
Reduction of crew complements on A340’s
Reduction of one SCCM on A340’s
Exiting of the B744 from the fleet.
Pilots:
The closure of the Durban base
Airport Employees:
The One Stop Shop initiative may have an impact on
headcount
Call Centre Employees:
The combining of the call centres may have an impact on
headcount
Technical Employees:
The exiting of the B747-400 fleet
The possibility of headcount reductions in SAA Cargo and
support services are being investigated and will be discussed
with you when the information is ready.
The number of employees affected and the job
categories in which they are employed
Proposed Selection Criteria:
The Company envisages applying the following criteria for Cabin Crew, Ground and Technical employees:
Service, attendance and employment record, and
FIFO where employees qualify for early retirement
Employment Equity principles will be applied in conjunction with the criteria above
Pilots will be selected in terms of the Regulating Agreement with due consideration of Employment Equity principles.
E
ps
(- 6 X B744 BUT + 3 X A343 + 2 X B733C + Comair/Kulula fleet)
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It amazes me how uninformed people on this forum are.
Are there no SAA pilots that are members on this forum? Or do you just keep quiet?
Nobody has even mentioned figures in terms of the shortage of flight deck crew, the 42 flights in August that so far can't go cos there's no P3's, the further shortage of crew because of the SAA manned 74's to Luanda and Lisbon saga, and also the-
Ag you no what, the list just goes on.
And I thought i could GET some info from this site?
Isnt there anyone in the know that comment here?
I can tell you one thing for sure: If 17 SAA pilots heads roll. It wont be because ther are 17 SAA pilots that are not needed.
So for what other reason then I ask...
Are there no SAA pilots that are members on this forum? Or do you just keep quiet?
Nobody has even mentioned figures in terms of the shortage of flight deck crew, the 42 flights in August that so far can't go cos there's no P3's, the further shortage of crew because of the SAA manned 74's to Luanda and Lisbon saga, and also the-
Ag you no what, the list just goes on.
And I thought i could GET some info from this site?
Isnt there anyone in the know that comment here?
I can tell you one thing for sure: If 17 SAA pilots heads roll. It wont be because ther are 17 SAA pilots that are not needed.
So for what other reason then I ask...
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There are many SAA pilots watching this forum,but why should we comment, because what ever"'WE''( I think we get called SKYGODS......feels quite good though) say get shot down in flames.( remember SAA pilots are the enemy---prick$)
Then again we got educated(couple of degrees etc) peolpe like JETNUT that do all our commenting for us!! Win-win situation !! OUT !
Then again we got educated(couple of degrees etc) peolpe like JETNUT that do all our commenting for us!! Win-win situation !! OUT !
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pretty please, lets not degrade this conversation to the usual SAA vs everyone else saga. lets keep objectively to the facts.
Come on guys, There are possibly peoples careers at stake here...
Come on guys, There are possibly peoples careers at stake here...
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Basic business principles 1.
Whenever you as management intend on re-negotiating employee benefits in order to save costs, the first thing you HAVE to do is make a press statement advising of job losses. After this whatever cuts the employee takes in order to save his hide seems to be a good compromise, with an added benefit to management that they look like the good guys for letting you keep your position.
Time will tell, leave it at that. By the time this thing pans out, we will probably have seen another 3 CEO's through the company with more "brilliant" ideas. The issue is now in the hands of the real gods, lets see if they are clever gods.
Whenever you as management intend on re-negotiating employee benefits in order to save costs, the first thing you HAVE to do is make a press statement advising of job losses. After this whatever cuts the employee takes in order to save his hide seems to be a good compromise, with an added benefit to management that they look like the good guys for letting you keep your position.
Time will tell, leave it at that. By the time this thing pans out, we will probably have seen another 3 CEO's through the company with more "brilliant" ideas. The issue is now in the hands of the real gods, lets see if they are clever gods.
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Bianchi and Gyro Nut. How much longer will you be in denial? This is not fellow pilots attacking you but your own management. I don’t know where you were during the S.A.A. predatory business dealings in the FliteStar / Avia and Sun Air days, but you will not find any sympathy from us, as SAAPA’s silence on these issues was deafening at the time.
Maybe a bit more knowledge of the history of your organization, present and past management culture, and basic arrogance, might change your mind and make you more aware of why these feeling against S.A.A. ( not crew) are out there.
But then being in denial, or too young in aviation, I think not
Maybe a bit more knowledge of the history of your organization, present and past management culture, and basic arrogance, might change your mind and make you more aware of why these feeling against S.A.A. ( not crew) are out there.
But then being in denial, or too young in aviation, I think not