SAA Flight Attendants rip the ring out at IAD
Feasant Plucker
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Discretion is the better part of valour.......or is it?
It should not be forgotten that discretion is a two way street. It can be used to continue a flight when it is to the advantage, usually a personal one, of one or more crew members to do so. It is not necessarily only another weapon in the company arsenal with which to whip the mule train home
The decision to extend would not have been taken lightly, or without due consultation. I believe the days of gung-ho get-home-itis are long gone. After all, when an individual is placed in command of a large transport aircraft in international air transport, it is expected of this individual to firstly consider the safety of passengers and crew, and then only the fiscal aspects of the operation.
One would hope there will be an enquiry, and if the cabin crew are found to have acted in contravention of their agreement, let the disciplinary process take its course. If mitigating factors are found, then the "Mutiny at Washington" may well turn out to be the proverbial damp squib, with only a few hundred sleepless, uncomfortable, seriously annoyed SLF to contend with..........aah to be a Public Relations Officer with SAA!
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SAA Cabin Crew
Recently our family were due out to Cape Town out of Heathrow. Arrived at the boarding gate in time, tired kids and all, flight crew were there but no sign of cabin crew. Apparently they had been delayed by an accident on the M4. Also note... all passengers were accounted for so somehow everyone makes it except for cabin crew. The handling staff were not best pleased. Mutterings from staff about SAA and the crews enjoyment of shopping facilities near central London hotels where they are put up. Am told most airlines have crew near to the airport to avoid such problems? Is this correct? Some hours late the CC pitch up wondering along, chatting, laughing and generaly looking rather happy. Some even had a duty free bags!! By this stage pax would have happily linched them. Just find it most strange that the FC can get to there on time but CC can't. Made a note to book another airline in future if possible.
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Its a flippin disgrace, and an absolute embarrassment to the airline and for South Africa for that matter. This is nothing more than a militant group of staff trying to make a point. The irony is that this senseless act will only strengthen the company’s drive to cut staff numbers.
I have no doubt that these guys will be suspended and that the unions will rise to their defence and mount their usual militant defence.
I have no doubt that these guys will be suspended and that the unions will rise to their defence and mount their usual militant defence.
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Well well well, so the coffee makers are now the bosses, its called TIA or AWA
This is Africa
Africa Wins Again
Its just not the "Springbok" anymore! We should vote a new name for it:
Aardvark Air
Rainbow Air Services
or maybe :::
Cosatu Air
Well like hundreds of others my money goes to another carrier.
This is Africa
Africa Wins Again
Its just not the "Springbok" anymore! We should vote a new name for it:
Aardvark Air
Rainbow Air Services
or maybe :::
Cosatu Air
Well like hundreds of others my money goes to another carrier.
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But I fear it might be too late with certain members of cabin crew.
Was on a flight this weekend which was only carrying about 20 pax. Two of these were seated in business class, and were handed Sunday Times newspapers on entering the aircraft. Just before takeoff, I too requested a Sunday times, and was told that they were business class pax only. I said that seeing that there are only two in business class, and that there was a whole pile of newspapers, I was sure that it would not be too much hassle to let me read one >> even promised to fold it up again and return it as new....
negative, was the reply >> you are not a business class passenger....
When I mentioned that the money I paid for my ticket, did not include a sh1t-service payment and that I was willing to pay the crew member for the fecking thing, said cabin screw then stormed off and fetched me a crumpled up Sunday Independant (from the bin of a morning flight) and dropped it into my lap. If I was not so desperate to get home, I would have shoved that crumpled old paper up where the sun dont shine, pull it out again, and beat the person to a pulp with the smelly end.
Good luck....
Was on a flight this weekend which was only carrying about 20 pax. Two of these were seated in business class, and were handed Sunday Times newspapers on entering the aircraft. Just before takeoff, I too requested a Sunday times, and was told that they were business class pax only. I said that seeing that there are only two in business class, and that there was a whole pile of newspapers, I was sure that it would not be too much hassle to let me read one >> even promised to fold it up again and return it as new....
negative, was the reply >> you are not a business class passenger.... When I mentioned that the money I paid for my ticket, did not include a sh1t-service payment and that I was willing to pay the crew member for the fecking thing, said cabin screw then stormed off and fetched me a crumpled up Sunday Independant (from the bin of a morning flight) and dropped it into my lap. If I was not so desperate to get home, I would have shoved that crumpled old paper up where the sun dont shine, pull it out again, and beat the person to a pulp with the smelly end.Good luck....
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Would like to hear both sides of the story here.
I agree that this should be treated as insubordination, and the Captain's word is final. Feed them to the wolves.
But how the hell did it get to a point where the cabin crew tell the Captain to pss off?!?!
Think there are some lessons to be learned here.
I agree that this should be treated as insubordination, and the Captain's word is final. Feed them to the wolves.
But how the hell did it get to a point where the cabin crew tell the Captain to p
ss off?!?!Think there are some lessons to be learned here.
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Coming home from FACT the other morning, I asked for 2 lemonades when the drinks trolley came around. I was informed by the cabin crew member that only one cooldrink per pax was allowed. "So for the R2k I payed for this ticket' I asked, "I only get one can?". Affirm was the reply. I then asked if I could ask for another when they had served everyone and there were any left over, Negative was the reply. Fortunately the guy next to me took pity on me, ordered the cooldrink then parked it on my tray table with his compliments. I swear by the look on the CC's face he wanted to slap the pax and take back the spare can, instead he just glared at us and pushed his cart away, ignoring us totally for the rest of the flight.
The standards are definately on the way down the toilet, seems the attitude in the back is becoming one of do the hell what you like because there are no consequences...
The standards are definately on the way down the toilet, seems the attitude in the back is becoming one of do the hell what you like because there are no consequences...
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Whilst I am of the opinion that the cabin crew should have done the flight, and this has been a breakdown in CRM, I think the incident is indicative of the general feeling of SAA cabin crew towards their employer.
Unlike the flight deck crew that are well looked after, the cabin crew do not feel as though the company cares at all about them. Cabin crew cannot even bid for one day off a month! How do you plan a life, attend your sister's wedding, etc? I heard today that cabin crew are being rostered for 4 leg JNB-CPT flights again! What type of service are they going to provide to the public when they have been on their feet for 4 Cape Town legs. The Washington pairing is known to be a problem for flight and duty. If you take sign on 1 hour before, and sign off 30 min afterwards, I have been told the pairing actually involves going into discretion already if leaving on time!
From the operations manual,
Unlike the flight deck crew that are well looked after, the cabin crew do not feel as though the company cares at all about them. Cabin crew cannot even bid for one day off a month! How do you plan a life, attend your sister's wedding, etc? I heard today that cabin crew are being rostered for 4 leg JNB-CPT flights again! What type of service are they going to provide to the public when they have been on their feet for 4 Cape Town legs. The Washington pairing is known to be a problem for flight and duty. If you take sign on 1 hour before, and sign off 30 min afterwards, I have been told the pairing actually involves going into discretion already if leaving on time!
From the operations manual,
"An Aircraft Commander may, at his discretion, in consultation with his crew, extend a FDP beyond the maximum normally permitted provided he is satisfied that the flight can safely be made. In these circumstances the maximum normally permitted shall be calculated according to what actually happens, not on what was planned to happen."
What will be interesting to see with this case is, what happens if the "in consultation" part results in the cabin crew wanting to get off, and the PIC deems it worth carrying on, is it then a case of insubordination if they do? The operations manual doesn't say that mutual agreement must be reached, it only mentions that he must consult.
Last edited by Gyro Nut; 21st May 2007 at 20:47.
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Choices
Gyro,
It's called career choice.
hehehe
4 legs or not, the cabin crews chose their professions themselves and accepted the conditions of employment when they interviewed, which includes salary and work hours. They could have worked anywhere else in South Africa, in any career. Nobody dragged them to the SAA cabin crew interviews but their own sorry, lazy and useless asses...
So, live with it or get out and let someone else do the job who wants to be there!!
But unfortunately most of the population in South Africa believes everything is owed to them.
The gravy train mentality, the great South African downfall...
It's called career choice.
hehehe4 legs or not, the cabin crews chose their professions themselves and accepted the conditions of employment when they interviewed, which includes salary and work hours. They could have worked anywhere else in South Africa, in any career. Nobody dragged them to the SAA cabin crew interviews but their own sorry, lazy and useless asses...
So, live with it or get out and let someone else do the job who wants to be there!! But unfortunately most of the population in South Africa believes everything is owed to them.
The gravy train mentality, the great South African downfall...
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Maybe ask which 4 cc don't want to fly, and get them off. Take the minumum crew of 8 (1 per door) for the A340 and go. This is possible.
If it is more than 4 cc, then it may depend on how many pax you have, and it might still be possible have degrade cc number, from there onwards.
You might be unpopular, but if it legal and safe, it's fair. Fly with those willing to work
If it is more than 4 cc, then it may depend on how many pax you have, and it might still be possible have degrade cc number, from there onwards.
You might be unpopular, but if it legal and safe, it's fair. Fly with those willing to work
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Skyloon
Yes some other carriers do stay out at the airport, until recently, CX were at the Park Inn right outside the gate. Have since moved to Hammersmith, due renovations, but have no doubt we will be right back when this is done.
My two cents worth though, if the schedule is close to flight & duty limits, then the company might from time to time have to anticipate disruptions such as these and have contingincies in place. Clearly they didn't
Normally, commanders discretion may not be planned, but only used for unforseen circumstances and with the agreement of the crew involved. If the crew are generally miffed with their lot in life then you are not going to get much help. Who employs the crew and manages them?
The same bunch of apes that didnt anticipate contingincies.
Lesson learnt? Employ the right people
Also am sure the Skipper had a plate full with this and I applaud him for his actions, it might just be what was needed to get the ball rolling.
Yes some other carriers do stay out at the airport, until recently, CX were at the Park Inn right outside the gate. Have since moved to Hammersmith, due renovations, but have no doubt we will be right back when this is done.
My two cents worth though, if the schedule is close to flight & duty limits, then the company might from time to time have to anticipate disruptions such as these and have contingincies in place. Clearly they didn't
Normally, commanders discretion may not be planned, but only used for unforseen circumstances and with the agreement of the crew involved. If the crew are generally miffed with their lot in life then you are not going to get much help. Who employs the crew and manages them?
The same bunch of apes that didnt anticipate contingincies.
Lesson learnt? Employ the right people
Also am sure the Skipper had a plate full with this and I applaud him for his actions
, it might just be what was needed to get the ball rolling.
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You might be unpopular, but if it legal and safe, it's fair. Fly with those willing to work
Lesson learnt? Employ the right people
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Point is taken then, however, I think there are bigger problems to come for the Kempton Park Flying Club, if it is being lead by unions and harassment.
How on Earth will it complete globaly, let alone on home ground? Imagine if this was Nationwide, for example! The two airlines fly under different names but under the same airlaw, would've had different outcomes, for sure.
How on Earth will it complete globaly, let alone on home ground? Imagine if this was Nationwide, for example! The two airlines fly under different names but under the same airlaw, would've had different outcomes, for sure.
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From the operations manual,
"An Aircraft Commander may, at his discretion, in consultation with his crew, extend a FDP beyond the maximum
"An Aircraft Commander may, at his discretion, in consultation with his crew, extend a FDP beyond the maximum
Were I the captain I would have wondered how they could claim anticipated fatigue when they had just spent two and a half days in a most comfy hotel.
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Linuxgal, quite correct, well picked up about the cabin crew side of the manual.
Will be interesting to see if the cabin crew get away with this...
I remember an incident a while back at Comair, where my wife was flying as cabin crew. The cabin crew were at the end of leg 2 of a 4 leg flight. and it was clear that capt's discretion was going to be needed to complete legs 3 and 4 due to delays. The problem was, a new set of flight deck crew took over for legs 3 and 4, and the Capt. decided it was ok for them go into the 3 hours Capt's discretion. Leg 2 had landed back at base, and I've been told by certain training capt's that to leave one's base, knowing one is going to go into Capt's discretion, is not only wrong, but it is illegal! My wife felt that it was quite unfair for the capt. to decide on this, seen as though he had just signed on and only had 2 legs to fly. Sometimes the discretion thing is not always fair on everyone!
Will be interesting to see if the cabin crew get away with this...
I remember an incident a while back at Comair, where my wife was flying as cabin crew. The cabin crew were at the end of leg 2 of a 4 leg flight. and it was clear that capt's discretion was going to be needed to complete legs 3 and 4 due to delays. The problem was, a new set of flight deck crew took over for legs 3 and 4, and the Capt. decided it was ok for them go into the 3 hours Capt's discretion. Leg 2 had landed back at base, and I've been told by certain training capt's that to leave one's base, knowing one is going to go into Capt's discretion, is not only wrong, but it is illegal! My wife felt that it was quite unfair for the capt. to decide on this, seen as though he had just signed on and only had 2 legs to fly. Sometimes the discretion thing is not always fair on everyone!
Está servira para distraerle.
That's a joke really? You can't have parts of crew flying around in discretion with bits that aren't, especially if the captain isn't.
Departing from base knowingly going into discretion means that the flight down route is being planned based on discretion. That would not be legal?
Quite apart from that, reflect on this. If one departs base using discretion, once that discretion has been used up, then there is no more to use. So, if, under those circumstances, one departs base and further delays occur down route, then the aircraft could easily find itself grounded at an away station. That of course is one of the reasons why any half decent airline company operates a sensible standby crew roster. But then that is altogether another story.
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Here is a reply from a member of the ASAnews Yahoogroup regarding this topic that I thought you guys may enjoy reading:
I was in a similar situation coming out of New York some years back, BUT we had a street smart SAA captain!
Our flight was delayed through no fault of SAA & the head cabin controller came to the captain with an ultimatum-- "either we push back in the next 40 minutes or we leave the aircraft as then, by the time we get to Joburg. we would have exceeded our legal duty time".
The captain explained to me that the crew enjoy spending an extra 24 hours in Manhattan, but not in Windhoek, so he promptly told them that he is taking off when ATC gives him permission, even if it is past the cabin crews 40 minute deadline. In the event that they would exceed their duty time, he was going to divert to Windhoek where a fresh cabin crew would join the aircraft & the present crew could relax for the necessary 24 hours!
The captain would, if necessary, speak to SAA ops in Joburg & have the replacement crew waiting for us in Windhoek to keep the delay to a minimum.
It was amazing how this smart stratergy changed the attitude of the cabin staff, who, in the event, did their duty all the way to Joburg!
I guess I would also rather go to my family in Joburg or spend an all expense paid 24 hours in Manhattan, that spend 24 hours in Windhoek!
I was in a similar situation coming out of New York some years back, BUT we had a street smart SAA captain!
Our flight was delayed through no fault of SAA & the head cabin controller came to the captain with an ultimatum-- "either we push back in the next 40 minutes or we leave the aircraft as then, by the time we get to Joburg. we would have exceeded our legal duty time".
The captain explained to me that the crew enjoy spending an extra 24 hours in Manhattan, but not in Windhoek, so he promptly told them that he is taking off when ATC gives him permission, even if it is past the cabin crews 40 minute deadline. In the event that they would exceed their duty time, he was going to divert to Windhoek where a fresh cabin crew would join the aircraft & the present crew could relax for the necessary 24 hours!
The captain would, if necessary, speak to SAA ops in Joburg & have the replacement crew waiting for us in Windhoek to keep the delay to a minimum.
It was amazing how this smart stratergy changed the attitude of the cabin staff, who, in the event, did their duty all the way to Joburg!
I guess I would also rather go to my family in Joburg or spend an all expense paid 24 hours in Manhattan, that spend 24 hours in Windhoek!
THUNDERTAILED
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What about explaining to the pax why there would be a shortened service on the flight, and giving the cabin crew an extra hour or two in the crew rest... more split duty time to be added = crew within FDP, flight goes.
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"However, the crew should all have been well rested and ready for the flight."
Ha..but herein lies the problem:When you've just spend the whole night in town,MAKING SOME EXTRA CASH in "various" ways..you are most definately not well rested for the flight!!!
Ah well...guess that's what happens when you're underpaid...
Eish capten,but I'm so tyed...eh..yez...
Ha..but herein lies the problem:When you've just spend the whole night in town,MAKING SOME EXTRA CASH in "various" ways..you are most definately not well rested for the flight!!!
Ah well...guess that's what happens when you're underpaid...
Eish capten,but I'm so tyed...eh..yez...
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Again???
I don't think the problem has been fixed at all.
A mate was on a flight to MRU on Friday morning (08 June) that experienced a problem and turned back to JNB. After working on it for a while the crew decided to get off, and were replaced by a full new crew (FD and Cabin).
The new crew then called for new catering as the first crew had already heated the meals on the first attempt. Once catering was on they gave it a second go but decided at the start of the take off run that it was not fixed and returned to the bay again.
At this point the Cabin Crew decided to get off but the FD guys stayed on. Captain was seen remonstrating with the Purser on the apron, who promptly turned her back on him and waved him off. I hasten to add that this is the assumption that my mate got and is not something I know factually.
Anyway, 3rd set of Cabin Crew got on and flight departed around 6 or 7 hours late. Surely if the FD can stay on then the Cabin crew can stay as well. I would have thought, and understand from previous posts in this thread, that the Captain would have made this decision.
They had a terminal cancer patient on board who went into a relapse of sort and had to be treated by paramedics on the apron during the delay. Thankfully he recovered and was able to travel to his kid's wedding.
Unfortunately for SAA, there were around 100 travel people on board, including Executive directors of one of the biggest travel agancy groups in SA, a number of owners of travel agents and top performing agents for SAA.
Credit must go to the Captain who evidently handled the entire situation brilliantly.
Not sure if anyone has the facts from an SAA perspective.
A mate was on a flight to MRU on Friday morning (08 June) that experienced a problem and turned back to JNB. After working on it for a while the crew decided to get off, and were replaced by a full new crew (FD and Cabin).
The new crew then called for new catering as the first crew had already heated the meals on the first attempt. Once catering was on they gave it a second go but decided at the start of the take off run that it was not fixed and returned to the bay again.
At this point the Cabin Crew decided to get off but the FD guys stayed on. Captain was seen remonstrating with the Purser on the apron, who promptly turned her back on him and waved him off. I hasten to add that this is the assumption that my mate got and is not something I know factually.
Anyway, 3rd set of Cabin Crew got on and flight departed around 6 or 7 hours late. Surely if the FD can stay on then the Cabin crew can stay as well. I would have thought, and understand from previous posts in this thread, that the Captain would have made this decision.
They had a terminal cancer patient on board who went into a relapse of sort and had to be treated by paramedics on the apron during the delay. Thankfully he recovered and was able to travel to his kid's wedding.
Unfortunately for SAA, there were around 100 travel people on board, including Executive directors of one of the biggest travel agancy groups in SA, a number of owners of travel agents and top performing agents for SAA.
Credit must go to the Captain who evidently handled the entire situation brilliantly.
Not sure if anyone has the facts from an SAA perspective.