Salaries
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Contract Dog - Good one. Lets rather break the operator offering the 'passion' salary's knees - saves our poor pilots!!
Wrinkly wings - Also a good suggestion but there's always a desperado that will take the 'passion' pay.
So I guess its a vicious circle, wish we could all stand together and demand our worth.
Safe flyin all!
MM
Wrinkly wings - Also a good suggestion but there's always a desperado that will take the 'passion' pay.
So I guess its a vicious circle, wish we could all stand together and demand our worth.
Safe flyin all!
MM
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Vw driver - I am a bit lost. You took the job and now are moaning about the salary? Surely you should have asked that question in the intervew?
You started 5 yrs ago on R19k a month, simple math, R/$ was 14/1 so you were on $1300? Well that is now R9K. And that was for the 2 months you were away?
Sadly its a fact that is taught in ecomonics 101, any rate of pay is determined by 2 things:-
- Supply and demand
- What ppl are prepared to pay for the product.
Right now, and I suspect for all time, u shake a tree and a 1000 hr pilot falls out. If you are looking for 3000hr guys with ATP's, there a bit thin on the ground. Salaries will reflect that.
Dont get me wrong, I am all for MASSIVE salaries for pilots. But its all simple math. Look for salaries to go up for the 3000hr guys.
You started 5 yrs ago on R19k a month, simple math, R/$ was 14/1 so you were on $1300? Well that is now R9K. And that was for the 2 months you were away?
Sadly its a fact that is taught in ecomonics 101, any rate of pay is determined by 2 things:-
- Supply and demand
- What ppl are prepared to pay for the product.
Right now, and I suspect for all time, u shake a tree and a 1000 hr pilot falls out. If you are looking for 3000hr guys with ATP's, there a bit thin on the ground. Salaries will reflect that.
Dont get me wrong, I am all for MASSIVE salaries for pilots. But its all simple math. Look for salaries to go up for the 3000hr guys.
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VW. Get your ATP and do contract if you cant find anything else. You can't complain if you havent put everything into it. Unless you get a lucky break you have to make it work.
If you put everything into it, the luck will come. There is a HUGE demand for good experience and its growing. Fast.
Remember, there's pilots and there's aviators. The industry remembers the guys who made it happen through their passion for flying. They are the people that gets offered ratings, nicer charters, nicer contracts and if you still carry on, on the same way, the big bucks jobs gets offered to you.
We are all working for the same company, just getting paid by different people, but word spreads like fire. Just put your bit in. The rest will follow.
If you put everything into it, the luck will come. There is a HUGE demand for good experience and its growing. Fast.
Remember, there's pilots and there's aviators. The industry remembers the guys who made it happen through their passion for flying. They are the people that gets offered ratings, nicer charters, nicer contracts and if you still carry on, on the same way, the big bucks jobs gets offered to you.
We are all working for the same company, just getting paid by different people, but word spreads like fire. Just put your bit in. The rest will follow.
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That was as a gofer at NAC contracts, So I earned more as a gofer than now as a Pilot!!! Since then I gotten some extra turbine/twin turbine ratings, and +- 1500 hours on 1900. Since I started in the industry I've bought a house, cars gotten engeged and made some investments. Now it's gotten to the stage to downgrade. To what?!! I do not live extravigantly, don't even go out much cause can't afford it!!!!
And they still want u to pay for u'r own ratings with training bonds?!
Job satisfaction doesn't pay the bills, and I've started telling that to everybody I know that wants to start flying.
Money diff from contracts to work ing in SA, living at home is not enough to leave u'r families friends, certainly not worth what relationships go through for me.
When I had my interviews I thought I took the best offer, the promises sounded better, well I was 75% right. Salaries need better structuring
When I get asked what I do, I say I'm a bus driver cause we get paid the same, and they think I'm joking!!!
And they still want u to pay for u'r own ratings with training bonds?!
Job satisfaction doesn't pay the bills, and I've started telling that to everybody I know that wants to start flying.
Money diff from contracts to work ing in SA, living at home is not enough to leave u'r families friends, certainly not worth what relationships go through for me.
When I had my interviews I thought I took the best offer, the promises sounded better, well I was 75% right. Salaries need better structuring
When I get asked what I do, I say I'm a bus driver cause we get paid the same, and they think I'm joking!!!
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Av8tor, u'r maths are correct, went for an interview with an airline and got asked after the interview if I would be happy with a salary drop. Thats why I'm not in an airline, really can't afford it. The job I chose had the more promising offers, since then my salary has till deen decreasing. to what I earn now. I've don my share of contract work, not interested. Just a though I my house payment is R8000 (standard 3 bdroom townhouse with garage including levies) car R2000, then u haven't even gotten to life insurance, house and car insurance, petrol, cellphone, car and house maintenance, food, social life and loans for ratings!
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Get a grip of yourself.
If you are not earning enough to support the lifestyle you want you have to do one of two things.
Either, change your lifestyle, or increase your earning ability.
You still have not told use your experience, because perhaps you are expecting too much for your level.
The captains for most contract companies are paid more or less a fair salary, co pilots on the other hand are not.
But, if you are a co-pilot, that is just a neccessary evil we have all had to endure in order to gain the required experience to move seats and normally almost double one's salary.
If you are a captain and are not happy with the salaries within the contract world and local airlines you may have to look in going abroad.
If you are a copilot and are not happy with the salaries, you will have to work at being a captain and that means changing your attitude somewhat.
If you are not earning enough to support the lifestyle you want you have to do one of two things.
Either, change your lifestyle, or increase your earning ability.
You still have not told use your experience, because perhaps you are expecting too much for your level.
The captains for most contract companies are paid more or less a fair salary, co pilots on the other hand are not.
But, if you are a co-pilot, that is just a neccessary evil we have all had to endure in order to gain the required experience to move seats and normally almost double one's salary.
If you are a captain and are not happy with the salaries within the contract world and local airlines you may have to look in going abroad.
If you are a copilot and are not happy with the salaries, you will have to work at being a captain and that means changing your attitude somewhat.
well said mate
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My complaint is about the salaies that keep on decreasing!!!! That's why most of us ended up complaing, read the post properly! Does it make sense that earned more as a Gofer 5 years ago than I do now a co-jo 1500 on 1900 with 2 ATP subjets to?
If I do get command which I was told I'd get with in 2-3 months after starting with the firm I'd most likely not earn R5000 more as a jonior CPT.
If I do get command which I was told I'd get with in 2-3 months after starting with the firm I'd most likely not earn R5000 more as a jonior CPT.
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VDUB...
having 2 atpl subjects passed or having 2 subjects to do means one in the same thing, you dont have an atpl.
i remember when a dollar was worth 11 rand when i was a new co pilot and when it was worth 6 when i was a captain, relatively speaking i earned more when i was a co pilot.
thats life, sh*t happens, life is not always logical nor fair.
get over it, you are wasting energy moaning about something you have no control over.
either accept the salary structure of your company and keep quiet, or leave for somewhere where you think you services will be better recognised.
having 2 atpl subjects passed or having 2 subjects to do means one in the same thing, you dont have an atpl.
i remember when a dollar was worth 11 rand when i was a new co pilot and when it was worth 6 when i was a captain, relatively speaking i earned more when i was a co pilot.
thats life, sh*t happens, life is not always logical nor fair.
get over it, you are wasting energy moaning about something you have no control over.
either accept the salary structure of your company and keep quiet, or leave for somewhere where you think you services will be better recognised.
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2 subjects to go means u are carrying. And yes, like said in my first post I've deciced to do something else. maybe fall back on to bean counting atleast the salaries are relistic with todays living cost, I don't know but all I ment it does'nt make sense, whith a laptop u've got backspace, in a plane well ya!
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You said,
'I don't know but all I ment it does'nt make sense, whith a laptop u've got backspace, in a plane well ya!'
I have no idea what that is supposed to mean, you think because you follow your AFM, QRH and SOP's you should be rewarded over and above what you have agreed to by signing a contract.
Most on here have put up with the poor salaries paid as a co-pilot, but most of us moved on to become captains and then moved on to other companies to probably become co-pilots again.
Have you considered that, that some contract captains have had to take pay cuts and have had the honour of flying as a co-pilot again in a new company/airline/whatever.
Why, because thats how the system works.
'I don't know but all I ment it does'nt make sense, whith a laptop u've got backspace, in a plane well ya!'
I have no idea what that is supposed to mean, you think because you follow your AFM, QRH and SOP's you should be rewarded over and above what you have agreed to by signing a contract.
Most on here have put up with the poor salaries paid as a co-pilot, but most of us moved on to become captains and then moved on to other companies to probably become co-pilots again.
Have you considered that, that some contract captains have had to take pay cuts and have had the honour of flying as a co-pilot again in a new company/airline/whatever.
Why, because thats how the system works.
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there is a balance in life
Thanks for some positive feedback, we realise its an emotive issue.
While we may not meet the expectations of some of the pilots out there, we hope to come up with a set of numbers that are acceptable.
Solenta is sitting with over 130 pilots now and the numbers are growing weekly, with expansion, and replacements for those pilots that have moved across to the airlines.
Obviously the training task is huge, as are the costs of launching new contracts. There are huge financial outlays for more aircraft, spares packages, ops controllers, engineers, pilots etc... Some pilots will be thinking "whats the company's expansion plans got to do with my salary, they just want to make more money for the shareholders ?"
Remember, this IS a business, first and foremost, and its those same shareholders that made your job available in the first instance. The most important thing to realise is, without growth, there are no extra jobs created, and movement slows, or stops completely. It is a domino effect, if the airlines don't grow, there is no movement from us to them, so there's no movement from charter / instructors to contract companies etc... and upgrades, new types and most importantly, salaries , stagnate.
Solenta IS expanding, even in the face of a worlwide crew shortage, and we are getting quality crew, who see the long term strategy, and see that we have built a solid foundation. This is fundamental to long term survival.
Cash flow is always tight during expansion, but the core of the business is solid and the profits WILL come, there is no doubt. Then we can all share in the fruits of our hard work and sacrifices. But to pay unrealistic salaries, the effect would be less available for expansion, aircraft, engineers,spares etc, and too many pilots have seen companies go down THAT road, we must not and will not allow that to happen at Solenta.
Solenta want to ensure that our pilots are paid a fair market rate, and are working towards that, amongst other initiatives already put in place.
While we may not meet the expectations of some of the pilots out there, we hope to come up with a set of numbers that are acceptable.
Solenta is sitting with over 130 pilots now and the numbers are growing weekly, with expansion, and replacements for those pilots that have moved across to the airlines.
Obviously the training task is huge, as are the costs of launching new contracts. There are huge financial outlays for more aircraft, spares packages, ops controllers, engineers, pilots etc... Some pilots will be thinking "whats the company's expansion plans got to do with my salary, they just want to make more money for the shareholders ?"
Remember, this IS a business, first and foremost, and its those same shareholders that made your job available in the first instance. The most important thing to realise is, without growth, there are no extra jobs created, and movement slows, or stops completely. It is a domino effect, if the airlines don't grow, there is no movement from us to them, so there's no movement from charter / instructors to contract companies etc... and upgrades, new types and most importantly, salaries , stagnate.
Solenta IS expanding, even in the face of a worlwide crew shortage, and we are getting quality crew, who see the long term strategy, and see that we have built a solid foundation. This is fundamental to long term survival.
Cash flow is always tight during expansion, but the core of the business is solid and the profits WILL come, there is no doubt. Then we can all share in the fruits of our hard work and sacrifices. But to pay unrealistic salaries, the effect would be less available for expansion, aircraft, engineers,spares etc, and too many pilots have seen companies go down THAT road, we must not and will not allow that to happen at Solenta.
Solenta want to ensure that our pilots are paid a fair market rate, and are working towards that, amongst other initiatives already put in place.
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VW
If u work in a Wimpy as a waitron and then a manager your earnings are limited to Wimpy's salary structure. So you move to a Spur as a waitron (again) but there the pay was a little less than the manager at Wimpy. As you move up you earn more as the manager of Spur. Then Baoabab offers you a post as a waitron (again) and your earnings are lower than a manager at Spur BUT when you become a manager at Baoabab you will earn their top salary which funnily enough, is way more than the Spur or Wimpy manager earns.
Moral to my story is: If you stay in a smallish company you will eventually only earn what their maximum scale is. If you move and take an INITIAL PAY CUT and work your way up (as ur experience grows) in a company that has scope, you will earn that companies top scale (in time)
All been said and done if you want to count beans go for it. I'd rather earn nothing than do that job. PASSION! Like I said in my 1st post here, get a sideline. Buy a coffee shop or video shop or shares in a garage. You said you've got investments - make them work!!
Good luck.
Moral to my story is: If you stay in a smallish company you will eventually only earn what their maximum scale is. If you move and take an INITIAL PAY CUT and work your way up (as ur experience grows) in a company that has scope, you will earn that companies top scale (in time)
All been said and done if you want to count beans go for it. I'd rather earn nothing than do that job. PASSION! Like I said in my 1st post here, get a sideline. Buy a coffee shop or video shop or shares in a garage. You said you've got investments - make them work!!
Good luck.
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Plane4sale, you contradict yourself.
You say you want a salary structure then your very last sentence says, 'And obviously, guys with a few thousand hours might be able to negotiate a better package.'
Why bother having an open scheme when there are secret deals being done.
Secondly, you have to understand the contract business, and I will be honest I also didnt really grasp it until I was several years into it, but they are not truely interested in loyalty or long term employees, hence the name, 'contract pilots'.
They want you for a period of time, while you are fairly inexperienced and therefore willing to take any job offered. In return, they dont have to pay huge amounts because you dont normally have too many options.
Dont get me wrong, the money is not too bad for that stage of your flying career, but as you become more experienced and more employable, you feel you are worth more, but to them, you will still only be doing the job you were doing for them 2/3/4 years earlier, so why should they pay you more.
So, they are actually happy for you to leave and so the cycle starts again.
Dont be naive and fooled into thinking contract flying is a career, or that their is any value in loyalty, because the operators have to pay the directors and owners of the planes and thats all they are interested in doing, they are a business to make money after all.
I think as soon as you see them as a stepping stone, because they only ever see you as temporary, the easier it becomes to accept the way things are and see contract flying for what it really is.
Nothing synical about it, just how it is.
You say you want a salary structure then your very last sentence says, 'And obviously, guys with a few thousand hours might be able to negotiate a better package.'
Why bother having an open scheme when there are secret deals being done.
Secondly, you have to understand the contract business, and I will be honest I also didnt really grasp it until I was several years into it, but they are not truely interested in loyalty or long term employees, hence the name, 'contract pilots'.
They want you for a period of time, while you are fairly inexperienced and therefore willing to take any job offered. In return, they dont have to pay huge amounts because you dont normally have too many options.
Dont get me wrong, the money is not too bad for that stage of your flying career, but as you become more experienced and more employable, you feel you are worth more, but to them, you will still only be doing the job you were doing for them 2/3/4 years earlier, so why should they pay you more.
So, they are actually happy for you to leave and so the cycle starts again.
Dont be naive and fooled into thinking contract flying is a career, or that their is any value in loyalty, because the operators have to pay the directors and owners of the planes and thats all they are interested in doing, they are a business to make money after all.
I think as soon as you see them as a stepping stone, because they only ever see you as temporary, the easier it becomes to accept the way things are and see contract flying for what it really is.
Nothing synical about it, just how it is.
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I personally feel that training bonds should be banned. The only reason that training bonds exist, is so that the operator can force you to stay on the job while he pays you bellow par salaries, or offer crap working conditions.
Which other industry in the world operate on training bonds?
Which other industry in the world operate on training bonds?
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Contract flying is a unique business.
Consider this from another perspective. Most of the pilots working for SA contract companies are South African who live in SA.
Lets take Pilot "X" who earns a salary of U$ 4500 per month ON, and U$ 2250 on month OFF. ( hypothetical figures )
He works 2 ON, 1 OFF rotations, thereby earning an annual salary of (8x4500)= U$36,000 plus (4x2250)= U$9,000 so earning an annual salary of U$45,000. ( ZAR 315,000).
Due to SA tax laws, this is an almost entirely tax-free salary.
The annual productivity of Pilot "X" is 8 months, as he only works 8 months a year. So this is ZAR 315,000 / 8 to get a nett productive salary of ZAR 39375 after tax for each month actually worked ( and he still has 4 months of the year free)
In Financial terms, Pilot "X" is only worth his salary to the business when he is productive.
A scheduled airline pilot / office employee earning the same ZAR 315,000 per annum works in SA 11 months of the year, with less than 1 month paid leave ( a 'normal' job). This is taxed at +/- 35% and equates to ZAR 315,000 / 12 = ZAR 26250 before tax, leaving a nett salary of ZAR 18375 for each month worked.
So, if structured correctly, the same salary yields contract-pilot "X" more than double his colleague's monthly salary per productive month, and he gets 3 months a year more completely free of duty.
Why lose 3 months holiday, work 6 days a week, battle traffic, just to pay the taxman half your salary ! ( that makes you a civil servant ! )
Talking of productivity, and its been mentioned in this forum already...
Some airline pilots in SA are earning far less GROSS salaries than some contract pilots, and then still have to pay tax. They work 6 days a week, up to max monthly and yearly FDP.
They work 11 months a year. They drive to and from ORT every day, fighting traffic, working early mornings and late nights.
As they say, be careful what you wish for, it may just come true !
Most contract pilots work day VFR only, and the plane goes to bed at sunset and wakes at sunrise. Then he goes home for a month and doesn't give the company a second thought until his next rostered duty. If he get called up early, he is paid an extra allowance ON TOP of his salary, likewise if he extends a tour.
But for this, a contract pilot makes a choice - is he willing to spend 8 months away from home for this 4 months off and double the salary ? This is a choice only he can make.
Contracting is NOT a career, it is a great way to build hours quickly, to get that airline job you dream of, earn a tax-free salary, and have four months a year on holiday.
For those that make it a career, and why wouldn't you, they continue to earn a tax free salary higher than their airline counterparts, and continue to have 4 months a year on holiday, its a choice they made.
The above is written in the spirit of promoting alternative thinking, maybe as an outsider's view, looking in, at the salary discussion, and provoke insightful conversation.
Consider this from another perspective. Most of the pilots working for SA contract companies are South African who live in SA.
Lets take Pilot "X" who earns a salary of U$ 4500 per month ON, and U$ 2250 on month OFF. ( hypothetical figures )
He works 2 ON, 1 OFF rotations, thereby earning an annual salary of (8x4500)= U$36,000 plus (4x2250)= U$9,000 so earning an annual salary of U$45,000. ( ZAR 315,000).
Due to SA tax laws, this is an almost entirely tax-free salary.
The annual productivity of Pilot "X" is 8 months, as he only works 8 months a year. So this is ZAR 315,000 / 8 to get a nett productive salary of ZAR 39375 after tax for each month actually worked ( and he still has 4 months of the year free)
In Financial terms, Pilot "X" is only worth his salary to the business when he is productive.
A scheduled airline pilot / office employee earning the same ZAR 315,000 per annum works in SA 11 months of the year, with less than 1 month paid leave ( a 'normal' job). This is taxed at +/- 35% and equates to ZAR 315,000 / 12 = ZAR 26250 before tax, leaving a nett salary of ZAR 18375 for each month worked.
So, if structured correctly, the same salary yields contract-pilot "X" more than double his colleague's monthly salary per productive month, and he gets 3 months a year more completely free of duty.
Why lose 3 months holiday, work 6 days a week, battle traffic, just to pay the taxman half your salary ! ( that makes you a civil servant ! )
Talking of productivity, and its been mentioned in this forum already...
Some airline pilots in SA are earning far less GROSS salaries than some contract pilots, and then still have to pay tax. They work 6 days a week, up to max monthly and yearly FDP.
They work 11 months a year. They drive to and from ORT every day, fighting traffic, working early mornings and late nights.
As they say, be careful what you wish for, it may just come true !
Most contract pilots work day VFR only, and the plane goes to bed at sunset and wakes at sunrise. Then he goes home for a month and doesn't give the company a second thought until his next rostered duty. If he get called up early, he is paid an extra allowance ON TOP of his salary, likewise if he extends a tour.
But for this, a contract pilot makes a choice - is he willing to spend 8 months away from home for this 4 months off and double the salary ? This is a choice only he can make.
Contracting is NOT a career, it is a great way to build hours quickly, to get that airline job you dream of, earn a tax-free salary, and have four months a year on holiday.
For those that make it a career, and why wouldn't you, they continue to earn a tax free salary higher than their airline counterparts, and continue to have 4 months a year on holiday, its a choice they made.
The above is written in the spirit of promoting alternative thinking, maybe as an outsider's view, looking in, at the salary discussion, and provoke insightful conversation.
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Solenta, your argument is terribly flawed. The way you have calculated the figures, it seems a contract pilot only lives for 8 months of the year. Does he not pay bills for the months he’s off? Divide his salary by 12 not 8. His salary should be calculated over a full year as this is the time period he works for the company and also incurs expenses. Many companies don’t allow there pilots to fly in their off time, and his time off is due to him as recuperation time, as deemed by the tax man, and he may not work at home during these times at all, if he does he may not recoup the tax money.
If you want to calculate his pay as tax free don’t negate the 4 months he has to be off in order to get it!
I would have to write a book in response to your thoughts on comparing salaries. It’s awful. With misconceived ideas like yours no wonder there is such a bungle in the payment of pilots.
If you want to calculate his pay as tax free don’t negate the 4 months he has to be off in order to get it!
I would have to write a book in response to your thoughts on comparing salaries. It’s awful. With misconceived ideas like yours no wonder there is such a bungle in the payment of pilots.