Why are South Africans so Negative
Reasons for leaving/staying
In the postings on this subject, much of the discussion centres around present day short term issues (crime, AA in SA and climate/jobs/houses/schools in the new country).
In fact, emigration is a long range decision and is driven by perceptions of the future. The biggest drivers should be long term financial security, and health care in your later years - those are the two major aspects which will make or break your future happiness. Once you are 65 years old, with diabetes and cancer in remission, no country will take you as an immigrant. Also, it is no good accumulating a comfortable retirement nest egg only to find it destroyed by inflation, Zim style. Zim is full of paupers who retired very comfortably a few years back. Anyone in SA who is a member of a DC pension fund will have seen their retirement capital triple in the last 4 years - it seems impossible to imagine the party ever ending... So, whatever ones views of SA are now are much less important than your own personal 20 year look ahead vision.
What will the crime picture be 20 years from now? How will the health system function 20 years from now? How much will this big pot of pension money buy in 20 years time? If it all goes pear shaped in 20 years time, what options will I have?
Many people "justify" (do you have to justify it?) emmigration saying it is for their childrens sake - though well meaning, the reality is ones children are young, adapatable & skilled and will usually make a life for themselves easily in any place. Really, one needs to consider ones own later years.
As my mate from Kenya observed: "The white mans epitaph - Things will be different in this country"
In fact, emigration is a long range decision and is driven by perceptions of the future. The biggest drivers should be long term financial security, and health care in your later years - those are the two major aspects which will make or break your future happiness. Once you are 65 years old, with diabetes and cancer in remission, no country will take you as an immigrant. Also, it is no good accumulating a comfortable retirement nest egg only to find it destroyed by inflation, Zim style. Zim is full of paupers who retired very comfortably a few years back. Anyone in SA who is a member of a DC pension fund will have seen their retirement capital triple in the last 4 years - it seems impossible to imagine the party ever ending... So, whatever ones views of SA are now are much less important than your own personal 20 year look ahead vision.
What will the crime picture be 20 years from now? How will the health system function 20 years from now? How much will this big pot of pension money buy in 20 years time? If it all goes pear shaped in 20 years time, what options will I have?
Many people "justify" (do you have to justify it?) emmigration saying it is for their childrens sake - though well meaning, the reality is ones children are young, adapatable & skilled and will usually make a life for themselves easily in any place. Really, one needs to consider ones own later years.
As my mate from Kenya observed: "The white mans epitaph - Things will be different in this country"
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maybe that is the problem...
[allovertheplace - just look at the rest of Africa. There's your answer.]
That is exactly our problem!!! We sit around too much and watch the rest of africa instead of doing something about our own situation! Its just that everybody is to scared (including me) to make the first move on the chessboard!!! Think back 12 years.....
It can not carry on like this. When will we stop to just sit and watch and do something.
Just a thought.....
That is exactly our problem!!! We sit around too much and watch the rest of africa instead of doing something about our own situation! Its just that everybody is to scared (including me) to make the first move on the chessboard!!! Think back 12 years.....
It can not carry on like this. When will we stop to just sit and watch and do something.
Just a thought.....
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These people will not make it any easier for folks to immigrate here from South Africa. We all know they are only a very very small number, but they are the ones that hit the headlines and help people form opinions.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/3981547a11.html
http://www.stuff.co.nz/3981547a11.html
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Maybe I will take the same route than you someday flame lilly, to move abroad and look for greener pastures somewhere where I know my wife and children would be safe. I think at the moment I just keep on hoping that thing will change but I guess that I'm very optimistic.
Would luv to see whats gonna happen with the world cup though....
Would luv to see whats gonna happen with the world cup though....
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Crime Information
MURDER 18,793
RAPE 55,114
ATTEMPTED MURDER 24,516
ASSAULT WITH INTEND 249,369
COMMON ASSAULT 267,857
AGGRAVATED ROBBERY 126,789
COMMON ROBBERY 90,825
INDECENT ASSAULT 10,123
KIDNAPPING 2,618
ABDUCTION 3,880
CARJACKING 12,434
TRUCK HIJACKING 930
RESIDENTIAL BURGLARY 276,164
BUSINESS BURGLARY 56,048
MOTOR VEHICLE THEFT 83,857
DRUG RELATED CRIME 84,001
MURDER 18,793
RAPE 55,114
ATTEMPTED MURDER 24,516
ASSAULT WITH INTEND 249,369
COMMON ASSAULT 267,857
AGGRAVATED ROBBERY 126,789
COMMON ROBBERY 90,825
INDECENT ASSAULT 10,123
KIDNAPPING 2,618
ABDUCTION 3,880
CARJACKING 12,434
TRUCK HIJACKING 930
RESIDENTIAL BURGLARY 276,164
BUSINESS BURGLARY 56,048
MOTOR VEHICLE THEFT 83,857
DRUG RELATED CRIME 84,001
South Africans, of all races, have nothing to unify them.
I'm not super-familiar with ZA - have visited there a few times, that's all - but as I understand it, the country has 12 different official languages, an unknown number of 'tribes', and (historically) three racial groups - Whites, Coloureds, and Negros, all of whom probably feel more strongly associated with their tribe (whether that be Zulu or Caucasian) or their racial group than with the country itself.
ZA worked in the past (up to the late 1980s) because one particular group dominated the rest and set out the rules. Whether it can continue to work in the future as an 'artificial construct' is unknown. Switzerland has 4 different language groups and 2 main religious groups (the internal political boundaries are drawn along religious and linguistic lines), and it has taken the Swiss 700 years to get everything working smoothly. Here in Canada, we have 2 different linguistic groups and have historically only had two different ethnic groups, yet our country has encountered considerable difficulty sticking together in the last 40 years.
Good luck with it.
Está servira para distraerle.
There might perhaps be certain cynics who post on Pprune from time to time who could come to the conclusion that the woes of Canada are due more to predations of the French influence than the more calming and mature legacy of the Anglo-Saxon.
Mind you, of course, the future of Canada suffered an enormous reversal when the Russians sold Alaska to The United States in 1867, thereby at one stroke depriving future Canadian governments of their very own home groan (sic) gulag into which to unload the rowdier and less desirable elements of what passes for society in that country?
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My 2c,
I spent most of my life living in africa..............5 years in zim and 8 in SA. Last June I left. I was convinced I was going to stay (no work permit but I was determined to make a plan) but shortly before my parents were to leave (three weeks to be precise) I had an attempted hijacking. Broad daylight and in rush hour traffic. **** it I said to myself, I can not deal with this kuk anymore so I upped and left. This was my third hijacking. I know several
people who were murdered, several girlfriends who were rapped and I myself have witnessed someone being shot in the head. I've also witnessed two stabbings. So please dont come and tell me that it is not a war. Enough negativity.
I now live in Serbia. The gulag. I think that says it all really.
It really is like stepping back 40 years in time. Technically, communism does not exist here anymore but this could not be furthur from the truth. Roads......if you could even call them that. Telephone company has a four year waiting list for a land line. The schools and universities......completely pathetic. Grocery shopping.........good luck. 7/10 the butchers have no meat. Bread.....go early in the morning and you might find some.
However, contrary to popular belief, the serbians are wonderfull people and its increadibly safe here. I can walk down the street, by myself at ANY time of the day/night with no worries. The mafia is increadibly big here. They are the only wealthy ones and own most of the restaurants/bars/caffes but they generally leave the average jo so alone. The average salary here is 300 - 400 euros a month (this includes doctors, lawyers, engineers) 
To summarise. I miss SA terribly. Would I move back if I got the opportunity..........maybe..... it would all depend on the opportunity and where I would be based (ct...YES definately JHB pigs would fly first 
) Its a wonderfull country (no place like it and it will always be my home) but has a lot of problems....safety being the big one in my case.
I spent most of my life living in africa..............5 years in zim and 8 in SA. Last June I left. I was convinced I was going to stay (no work permit but I was determined to make a plan) but shortly before my parents were to leave (three weeks to be precise) I had an attempted hijacking. Broad daylight and in rush hour traffic. **** it I said to myself, I can not deal with this kuk anymore so I upped and left. This was my third hijacking. I know several
people who were murdered, several girlfriends who were rapped and I myself have witnessed someone being shot in the head. I've also witnessed two stabbings. So please dont come and tell me that it is not a war. Enough negativity.
I now live in Serbia. The gulag. I think that says it all really.
It really is like stepping back 40 years in time. Technically, communism does not exist here anymore but this could not be furthur from the truth. Roads......if you could even call them that. Telephone company has a four year waiting list for a land line. The schools and universities......completely pathetic. Grocery shopping.........good luck. 7/10 the butchers have no meat. Bread.....go early in the morning and you might find some. However, contrary to popular belief, the serbians are wonderfull people and its increadibly safe here. I can walk down the street, by myself at ANY time of the day/night with no worries. The mafia is increadibly big here. They are the only wealthy ones and own most of the restaurants/bars/caffes but they generally leave the average jo so alone. The average salary here is 300 - 400 euros a month (this includes doctors, lawyers, engineers) To summarise. I miss SA terribly. Would I move back if I got the opportunity..........maybe..... it would all depend on the opportunity and where I would be based (ct...YES definately
JHB pigs would fly first ) Its a wonderfull country (no place like it and it will always be my home) but has a lot of problems....safety being the big one in my case.
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I came back from Rhodesia in 1980. I truly believed we had a chance here.
I have a son and his family in Australia. What he still remembers is the fact that as a ten year old he had to be taught how to handle a 9mm pistol to help mummy when daddy is flying.
My daughter and her family is thinking.......the usual stuff like crime and education etc.
We now qualify for the parent visa and my forms are going in!
I have tried to retire to my farm but that is another long sad story.
Like mentioned in another post: I too cry for my beloved countries.
I have a son and his family in Australia. What he still remembers is the fact that as a ten year old he had to be taught how to handle a 9mm pistol to help mummy when daddy is flying.
My daughter and her family is thinking.......the usual stuff like crime and education etc.
We now qualify for the parent visa and my forms are going in!
I have tried to retire to my farm but that is another long sad story.
Like mentioned in another post: I too cry for my beloved countries.
Paxing All Over The World
Eraser You listed much crime information statistics - but no indication of across what time period? Is that 2004/5/6 or the last 12 calendars months?
V1...Oooops Thanks for the compliment. Your mention of the difficulties that Switzerland has had is pertinent.
I understand that Mandela's absolute intention was to run ZA in the same boundaries as it had been run by the white man - and that is perfectly understandable. At the time, I thought it wrong. Now I am convinced that it was wrong.
A South Africa with a federation or confederation of states would have dealt with many of the problems relating to the many languages and tribes and wannabee kings and presidents. Sure, it would have presented other problems but the whole world is currently going through an era of splitting and breaking apart. Even the Socttish Nationalists are having another go at separating from the United Kingdom. So I think that the break up of the country into more than just the existing provinces is a fair liklihood and it may well come about as a result of civil war.
That is ... if central govt cannot and will not control the crime or do anything to try and quash it by force and the rule of law - then a civil war against the govt is likly. That may then lead to the break up of the country into a federation. I think that it would be for the best. Not necessarily the best possible move but one that could bring stability by engaging people in their own govt, rather than the beauracrts in Pretoria and the gravy train to Cape Town that is a replica of the white gravy train.
V1...Oooops Thanks for the compliment. Your mention of the difficulties that Switzerland has had is pertinent.
I understand that Mandela's absolute intention was to run ZA in the same boundaries as it had been run by the white man - and that is perfectly understandable. At the time, I thought it wrong. Now I am convinced that it was wrong.
A South Africa with a federation or confederation of states would have dealt with many of the problems relating to the many languages and tribes and wannabee kings and presidents. Sure, it would have presented other problems but the whole world is currently going through an era of splitting and breaking apart. Even the Socttish Nationalists are having another go at separating from the United Kingdom. So I think that the break up of the country into more than just the existing provinces is a fair liklihood and it may well come about as a result of civil war.
That is ... if central govt cannot and will not control the crime or do anything to try and quash it by force and the rule of law - then a civil war against the govt is likly. That may then lead to the break up of the country into a federation. I think that it would be for the best. Not necessarily the best possible move but one that could bring stability by engaging people in their own govt, rather than the beauracrts in Pretoria and the gravy train to Cape Town that is a replica of the white gravy train.
Está servira para distraerle.
Reversion to previous topics.....
Actually one is rather a fan of benign colonialism. It was a system that in general, by the introduction of a more sophisticated society, kept one part of the local population from slaughtering another, thereby encouraging life expectancy all round. Its sins, at worst, were less brutal than those that were the norm of the chief, rajah or sheikh whose power it held in check and it left a tangible inheritance in concrete and steel which future generations have found to be of some use.
Whatever one's views of the subject; there is no possibility of South Africa being able to reinstate the death penalty, let alone extend its application. The country would find itself expelled from The Commonwealth in fairly short order and what would happen to 2010?
If one were to speak as a European, one would have to say that for whatever reason, crime in South Africa is perceived as being generated by the black sector of the population and that much of it is justified only by criminality or envy. There are no more freedom fighters in the land of Prester John.
Now the white man probably knows less about what goes on in the black man's brain than the other way around - any more than a Spaniard knows what makes a Latvian tick. But the problem is perceived by many as being a black problem and it therefore should behove a black government to be seen to be doing something about it. The South African administration is seen as failing dismally in this regard, certainly by whites and one suspects, almost certainly by all other segments of the population.
Actions which Pretoria could take to alleviate some of the public relations disaster it has on its hands would include the construction of new prisons, not necessarily nice ones, you understand, the lengthening of jail sentences so that a lifer was really in for all of it and draconian measures to restrict immigration and impede the movement of criminals. To this end, the reinstitution of a form of identity card might be useful. In reality, bring back the pass laws!
History has no absolutes in right or wrong. Nelson Mandela's role in the panoply of the past was, by his presence, to prevent the bloodbath predicted by so many. In this he succeeded even as de Klerk stood aside and observed his transition from the sideline. In years to come, however, Mandela will be judged on his active legacy for South Africa, on his constructive achievements rather than his preventative ones. The quality of what Mandela achieved in a manner constructively beneficial to the overall society of the country may be called into question in the future.
Just like anything else in life, reasons for emigration change as do the seasons. The forces driving such decisions when one is forty with young children will have changed considerably by the time one hits the sixty year mark. The over riding factor has to be the projection as to where one will feel safe and secure for oneself and one's loved ones either now or in the future. Where, perhaps, one could conceivably be happy? Unless one has a great deal of money and suitable bolt holes the answer to the question posed, for the white man at least, might well be - out of Africa.
It might be of interest were one able to compile a chart showing how many of the South African black population had either moved overseas or would do so, could they. One has to suspect that numbers would be considerable. Does the black man look to his own educational advancement in South Africa as a means to improve the future for his country or is his goal nothing more than a green card or its European equivalent? Such a statistic would perhaps reveal more about true negativity in South Africa than the relatively short term fears of the white man. The black people hold the keys to the future of South Africa. One does wonder, sometimes with a degree of perplexity, what doors of opportunity await the locksman.
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Been out of this for a couple of days........thanks to the wonderfully (in)efficient services of Telkoms ADSL dept.
2 thoughts.
1. While the total net income of blacks has increased hugely....The net real income of the vast majority of blacks in this country (the lower income earners) has decreased since black majority rule.
2. There has been a substantial increase over the last 6 months of applications for migration to OZZ by Black professional S Africans?
Makes a man think??
As to the long term future in this country, have a look around the continent with all its vast wealth of natural resources and count the success stories......why would we expect it to be any different here????
easier to believe in the tooth fairy.
2 thoughts.
1. While the total net income of blacks has increased hugely....The net real income of the vast majority of blacks in this country (the lower income earners) has decreased since black majority rule.
2. There has been a substantial increase over the last 6 months of applications for migration to OZZ by Black professional S Africans?
Makes a man think??
As to the long term future in this country, have a look around the continent with all its vast wealth of natural resources and count the success stories......why would we expect it to be any different here????
easier to believe in the tooth fairy.
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The news last night reported that Zuma is making a go for the ANC Presidency. A man so reckless with his own life will be reckless with his own country.
I don't profess to know what goes on in the corridors of power but I'll be very (pleasantly) suprised if he is not our next President.
One cannot have a healthy democracy when the ruling party has more than a two thirds majority.
Yet another reason to leave.
I don't profess to know what goes on in the corridors of power but I'll be very (pleasantly) suprised if he is not our next President.
One cannot have a healthy democracy when the ruling party has more than a two thirds majority.
Yet another reason to leave.
Last edited by BOK2GO; 8th Mar 2007 at 09:05.
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Why leave South Africa? Why not!?
Well put, Deutscher.
If anyone is wondering what the future holds, just look to the North from the border and given time, it will all be the same.
It will break my heart to leave, but the prognosis in my opinion is such that I believe to stay will unfairly affect my kids when it comes to looking for a job. Not to mention how it is hitting me in the pocket right now to put them in a decent school with an internationally accepted curriculum.
Armour on, helmet strap tight, awaiting the storm........
Well put, Deutscher.
If anyone is wondering what the future holds, just look to the North from the border and given time, it will all be the same.
It will break my heart to leave, but the prognosis in my opinion is such that I believe to stay will unfairly affect my kids when it comes to looking for a job. Not to mention how it is hitting me in the pocket right now to put them in a decent school with an internationally accepted curriculum.
Armour on, helmet strap tight, awaiting the storm........