Why are South Africans so Negative
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Travels in Africa substantiate the truth in the words of Mukosha. But this is a thread relating to South Africa and thus to blacks and whites and coloureds as well. So, to a certain extent, what has happened historically in the rest of Africa is relevant. So far no King of Scotland has appeared in Pretoria to physically drive all but his own tribe before him; but Mr Zuma bids fair for the crown perhaps?
Actually, South Africans of all colours are just fed up with being robbed, burgled and raped. They do not terribly much like being shot either, especially after they have been robbed. Can't quite see the point in that really, rather like the bandits who, the other day, robbed a security van, then locked the driver and guards in the van and then set it on fire, roasting them to death.
It's the cruelty, you see, and it's really quite evil!
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I dont know, we have operated all over Africa and I have spent time in most countries, including Zambia, and while I hear tell there are improvements in that country, I think Mukosha talks nonsence about how wonderful it is.
The Cape is beautiful place but "everything worked"????? like the lights ???
.....Jaaa now that is definitely us......it's a bad habit we have..... when we have stuff we expect it to work and we expect to keep it....like our possessions and our lives.......but then we are spoiled you see!!!
We like to call it civilization......but I guess compared to a mud hut what we have would seem quite grand
Having said that, on a recent trip to the Cape my family and I walked out of the plane, hired a car and drove around some of the most amazing infrastructure I have seen anywhere in the world. Everything worked and everyone was helpful and friendly
But, I really do think you whine too much. Perhaps just spoilt for too long
We like to call it civilization......but I guess compared to a mud hut what we have would seem quite grand
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BUT.. Leave the rest of Africa out of it!
Mukosha - the whole point is Africa is very much in it mate!
South Africa is seen as a fulcrum on which the entire continent rests. Yes... the best infra structure on the continent, yes.... an emerging and relatively strong economy, yes.... a trade supplier to most of Southern Africa including Tanzania. But you do not live under constant and very real threat- daily.
Zambia and Tanzania are two very good examples of fine African countries, but what about the other 50 odd dude?? Check out DRC, Chad, CAR, Eritrea, Somalia, Algeria, Nigeria, Cote D'Ivoir etc etc...?
A visit to the Cape is all very well, it's fleeting and the photo's are great. Live in Jhb for a month and we'll compare whinges then.
South Africa is seen as a fulcrum on which the entire continent rests. Yes... the best infra structure on the continent, yes.... an emerging and relatively strong economy, yes.... a trade supplier to most of Southern Africa including Tanzania. But you do not live under constant and very real threat- daily.
Zambia and Tanzania are two very good examples of fine African countries, but what about the other 50 odd dude?? Check out DRC, Chad, CAR, Eritrea, Somalia, Algeria, Nigeria, Cote D'Ivoir etc etc...?
A visit to the Cape is all very well, it's fleeting and the photo's are great. Live in Jhb for a month and we'll compare whinges then.
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South Africa
This thread is absolutely spell-binding to an outsider. How can anyone really want to live, or should I say exist, in such a corrupt and cruelly violent society ? would some one please explain what are the benefits ?
On this side of the world we drive with windows down, we stop at red lights (you call them robots ) even late at night. I have a camper van and sometimes we park overnight beside a river or lake in complete safety, perhaps you should fight back, I.E. if some one walks towards your car while stationary, with obvious malice blow him away (it always seems to be a him). Get rid of the low lifes and corruption and I will be the first to emigrate to your fascinating country.
On this side of the world we drive with windows down, we stop at red lights (you call them robots ) even late at night. I have a camper van and sometimes we park overnight beside a river or lake in complete safety, perhaps you should fight back, I.E. if some one walks towards your car while stationary, with obvious malice blow him away (it always seems to be a him). Get rid of the low lifes and corruption and I will be the first to emigrate to your fascinating country.
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"Get rid of the low lifes and corruption and I will be the first to emigrate to your fascinating country."
Hey, have you got any iideas on how to clean up the states first.......ha ha
Hey, have you got any iideas on how to clean up the states first.......ha ha
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Note to editors:
There was a sticky about which had reference to a young girl who had gone walkabout reently. It seems to have been removed, hence this post which is not intended to upset those involved in the sticky. Please delete it if it might cause distress. cc
For those of you out there a little less familiar with the joys of living in Africa, no - aplogies, Safrica, let us speak for a moment of the crime of kidnapping.
This heartrending act of dastardly criminality is quite prevalent in Safrica and may be also in parts north of the great green and greasy, where its occurrence would probably go largely unreported. Usually it does not involve the children of whites or coloureds; the victims of this crime tending to be black children from the poorest areas or camps.
If the bodies of these young victims are ever found, they are usually discovered to be missing body parts, usually their sexual organs,(male and female) eyeballs and noses. These will have been removed either for use as ingredients in local medical concoctions or perhaps because these poor pieces of human anatomy form part the requirements for a ritual of some sort.
In Safrica, when a mother shudders at the thought of her children going missing or being kidnapped, the word 'ransom' is not the one that springs foremost to her foetid imagination!
There was a sticky about which had reference to a young girl who had gone walkabout reently. It seems to have been removed, hence this post which is not intended to upset those involved in the sticky. Please delete it if it might cause distress. cc
For those of you out there a little less familiar with the joys of living in Africa, no - aplogies, Safrica, let us speak for a moment of the crime of kidnapping.
This heartrending act of dastardly criminality is quite prevalent in Safrica and may be also in parts north of the great green and greasy, where its occurrence would probably go largely unreported. Usually it does not involve the children of whites or coloureds; the victims of this crime tending to be black children from the poorest areas or camps.
If the bodies of these young victims are ever found, they are usually discovered to be missing body parts, usually their sexual organs,(male and female) eyeballs and noses. These will have been removed either for use as ingredients in local medical concoctions or perhaps because these poor pieces of human anatomy form part the requirements for a ritual of some sort.
In Safrica, when a mother shudders at the thought of her children going missing or being kidnapped, the word 'ransom' is not the one that springs foremost to her foetid imagination!
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Next victim
Fluffy fan old sport, here is my up to the minute report on why we as Sefafricans have earned the right to moan:-
This morning at 06h15 when I opened my curtains, my dog of five years was lying in a pool of his own vomit and excrement, parilized by poison ,that was fed to him during the course of the evening.By whom you may ask? Well in our local area,the modus operandi is for the criminals to sus your house or whatever asset they are after,check who your security company is (yes,we have to pay for private security,as the police are incompetent,the government scores on taxes, and they dont have to deliver a service...double edged sword that) poision your watchdogs,and in a day or two break into your property and help themselves to whatever they desire. Security companies respond as best they can, however, my message here is that at some stage we become victims of criminal activities, due to the incompetence of the national government.
I pay my taxes,like most of us do, thereby entiltiling me to the right to have service delivery( ie protection from the criminal element) We do not get the privilage of protection, we have all but been disarmed by the government, so we (white,black coloured,asian , christian,hindu,jew,muslim....middle class) are all soft targets. If I sit up all night, hiding in the bushes of my garden , with a torch and a baseball bat waiting for the criminals to have their way with my assets, how productive am I going to be as an employee on the following day? If I catch and kill them for trespassing and attempted robbery,I become a criminal as well!!
So yes, we have a wonderful country, full of natural wonders, a rainbow nation of happy smilely faces
.....all, at some stage or other, going to become a victim of a violent crime.
In sumary,we have the right to complain.
P.S. Vet says dog might make it........will have to wait 24hrs.
This morning at 06h15 when I opened my curtains, my dog of five years was lying in a pool of his own vomit and excrement, parilized by poison ,that was fed to him during the course of the evening.By whom you may ask? Well in our local area,the modus operandi is for the criminals to sus your house or whatever asset they are after,check who your security company is (yes,we have to pay for private security,as the police are incompetent,the government scores on taxes, and they dont have to deliver a service...double edged sword that) poision your watchdogs,and in a day or two break into your property and help themselves to whatever they desire. Security companies respond as best they can, however, my message here is that at some stage we become victims of criminal activities, due to the incompetence of the national government.
I pay my taxes,like most of us do, thereby entiltiling me to the right to have service delivery( ie protection from the criminal element) We do not get the privilage of protection, we have all but been disarmed by the government, so we (white,black coloured,asian , christian,hindu,jew,muslim....middle class) are all soft targets. If I sit up all night, hiding in the bushes of my garden , with a torch and a baseball bat waiting for the criminals to have their way with my assets, how productive am I going to be as an employee on the following day? If I catch and kill them for trespassing and attempted robbery,I become a criminal as well!!
So yes, we have a wonderful country, full of natural wonders, a rainbow nation of happy smilely faces
.....all, at some stage or other, going to become a victim of a violent crime.In sumary,we have the right to complain.
P.S. Vet says dog might make it........will have to wait 24hrs.
Paxing All Over The World
I can understand that Mukosha thinks that life in Africa is OK. I suggest that the reason is because Zambia and Tanzania have had their big turmoil and civil war but South Africa has not.
Those countries where the war has been fought, won and lost and now left behind - are going to be much nicer places. Consider Zambia and Tanzania 20 or 30 years ago? Were they better or worse to live in than now? (I do not know the answer, I am asking)
ZA escaped having a civil war, because Mandela and de Klerk excuted their unique 'three-legged' walk to freedom. They managed to pacify both sides and there was no Uhuru. I have written about this before in these forums and will not repeat in full - but my contention is that ...
South Africans, of all races, have nothing to unify them. If the war had been fought and both sides had spilt horrendous amounts of blood, then they would have had common ground to meet up and agree a peace. But there is no common ground and the common thieves can use the space for their own pleasure.
The Truth & Reconciliation Commission made a valiant effort but it was about crimes past - not present. I see no end until the govt admits that there is a problem and that they cannot do for all the obvious reasons. Accordingly, the only short term option is to get out and let your children return in 20 or 30 years time.
Those countries where the war has been fought, won and lost and now left behind - are going to be much nicer places. Consider Zambia and Tanzania 20 or 30 years ago? Were they better or worse to live in than now? (I do not know the answer, I am asking)
ZA escaped having a civil war, because Mandela and de Klerk excuted their unique 'three-legged' walk to freedom. They managed to pacify both sides and there was no Uhuru. I have written about this before in these forums and will not repeat in full - but my contention is that ...
South Africans, of all races, have nothing to unify them. If the war had been fought and both sides had spilt horrendous amounts of blood, then they would have had common ground to meet up and agree a peace. But there is no common ground and the common thieves can use the space for their own pleasure.
The Truth & Reconciliation Commission made a valiant effort but it was about crimes past - not present. I see no end until the govt admits that there is a problem and that they cannot do for all the obvious reasons. Accordingly, the only short term option is to get out and let your children return in 20 or 30 years time.
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I briefly scanned a couple of posts and I come to only one conlusion.....
Fluffy's original post is proven right in most posts.....NEGATIVITY to the highest degree.
There are two choices here....leave or stop being negative and help make it work. If all this negative energy can be changed to something positive, things will change. Maybe not at the rate you want it to, but it will change.
Proudly South African
Fluffy's original post is proven right in most posts.....NEGATIVITY to the highest degree.
There are two choices here....leave or stop being negative and help make it work. If all this negative energy can be changed to something positive, things will change. Maybe not at the rate you want it to, but it will change.
Proudly South African
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Would imagine this bloke wishes he had of left instead of risking his health and life for what???
http://www.stuff.co.nz/3979395a12.html
http://www.stuff.co.nz/3979395a12.html
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Kaiser made asked an extremely good question. "Why would anyone want to live there" No one has answered that and seems everyone has avoided the question. Many of you have real reasons why you cannont leave South Africa, but there are an equal number of you who can pack up and get out of there. Do it if you are so unhappy.
I have family all over SA and have personally lived in Jozi for two years. Its not right how dangerous things are. However, your lights do work (99% of the time), your phones get through to the right numbers, you can buy anything you want from the shops, your roads are great, your kids go to excellent schools, etc etc. The list goes on forever.
Yes not all of Africa is good and it has got its problems. But where as you all see a decline in any of the extremely good facilities you have as a disaster; we are overjoyed when we can drive on a road with no pot holes and when the police have a vehicle that actually runs. I suppose we are looking at our lives in Africa from a different perspective.
You know, its only a days drive from Jozi to Zim! Give that a go.
I have family all over SA and have personally lived in Jozi for two years. Its not right how dangerous things are. However, your lights do work (99% of the time), your phones get through to the right numbers, you can buy anything you want from the shops, your roads are great, your kids go to excellent schools, etc etc. The list goes on forever.
Yes not all of Africa is good and it has got its problems. But where as you all see a decline in any of the extremely good facilities you have as a disaster; we are overjoyed when we can drive on a road with no pot holes and when the police have a vehicle that actually runs. I suppose we are looking at our lives in Africa from a different perspective.
You know, its only a days drive from Jozi to Zim! Give that a go.
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Paxboy
if this is not war then what is????
FlingWingKing
Proudly South African........now please tell us what exactly would there be to be proud of????.......
Its really not just as simple as leave or be still.....some people cant just leave and quite frankly while i am happy with my decision that we are going to leave it still agravates the poep out of me that it should be necessary.
As for being NEGATIVE......I have not seen any in these posts.....realistic yes but negative no.......In fact I am POSITIVE this is no place to live.
if this is not war then what is????
FlingWingKing
Proudly South African........now please tell us what exactly would there be to be proud of????.......
Its really not just as simple as leave or be still.....some people cant just leave and quite frankly while i am happy with my decision that we are going to leave it still agravates the poep out of me that it should be necessary.
As for being NEGATIVE......I have not seen any in these posts.....realistic yes but negative no.......In fact I am POSITIVE this is no place to live.
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Some eighteen years go your correspondent left South Africa for points north. This was primarily in order to give the children a long term opportunity which did not seem to exist, even in those days, in the country. One hastens to admit that personal circumstances made this move comparatively easy and that a job offer somewhere in the frozen wastelands of the north looked far more appealing than the reality was to prove.
Since then, after many visits back home, a retirement move back to the sun has been frequently discussed. There are four main reasons why a decision to do this has not been taken.
The South African taxation system has changed markedly in the last few years. Capital gains tax and taxation on non South African sited investments have meant that long term inheritance prospects for children are prejudiced.
The health service is somewhat in decline. The quality of surgeons and doctors may still be excellent but the hospital care itself deteriorates, even in private sectors of hospitalization, let alone in the public sectors.
The crime factor is a very serious problem which, as senility approaches becomes rather more frightening than simply inconvenient.
One has to take note of the fact that such friends as one has down there in the legal, medical and other professional fields exhort one not to return.
The answer to the question as to why one would want to live in South Africa is obvious enough. The country is in itself a land almost sans pareil in the world today. It is a truly wonderful land! But its government seems hell bent on killing the cow and poisoning the honey bees.
So, to the question as asked, 'why would anyone want to live there?' must be added another, which is 'why would anyone want to move back there?'
The answer to this may lie somewhere in the statement that life for the white man and his children in South Africa appears to become increasingly more dangerous, uncertain and prejudiced. Active racism is alive and well in South Africa. It has just moved bias across the colour bar.
Perhaps the white African looks around him and sees that while life may be better for the black African, his future faces slow but sure deterioration? Certainly if he looks north of the border river he sees nothing but the the disaster that has been created by expropriation of lands once productive, now barren. When he looks further north he sees countries wracked by war and strife which once, albeit under a colonial rule, were prosperous and stable. When he looks south again, he sees the seemingly benign platform of willing seller/willing buyer abrogated by the government in its efforts to appease the more left wing elements of the voting public. He may remark, with some justification perhaps, that the course of African history is about to repeat itself in South Africa. He is out numbered, out voted and out gunned and if he bothers to read the black press, he will find all too frequent mention of the hated colonial rule which does nothing to encourage him in the belief that his fellow black African has any other long term goal than the removal of the white man from the continent.
So the white South African, a minority in his own country, over taxed by the government in a manner disproportionate to his numbers, looks north, east and west for new territories where, in keeping with the traditions of human migration; he may safely raise his children and provide them with the opportunities which they will need for their future. If he can afford to move on he may either do so or he may ensure, by a suitable disposition of his assets, that he is able to do so should he wish to do so in the future, should life become too uncomfortable for him and his family.
The South African government has apparently recently afforded some form of special refugee status to all emmigrants from Zimbabwe fleeing the tyranny in that country. It may be overly sceptical to regard such a decision as anything other than humanitarian but it does not take too much of a stretch of the imagination to conjure up the same tyranny south of the Limpopo as is perceived to exist in so many of the lands to the north.
Paxing All Over The World
Cheetah That is a very well set out case for those that have left and those that may yet do so. Those of my family and friends that can leave have done/are doing so. Some have chosen to stay and I am anxious for them every day. I shall be visiting in April for the first time in four years and am anxious for my own safety.
Balmy
It surely feels like one but I don't think that it is a war because the criminals are attacking everyone and only a few are responding. If the populace at large were going on vigilante raids and so forth - then it would be a war.
A civil war is when two main groupings within a country fight each other for control fo the country but the criminals doing the attacking are not a group - they all are doing their own thing and only for themelves. Of course, when you put it altogether - then it looks like a war. Sorry if this is too much of a dictionary definition but one has to start with what the words mean.
It is possible that it will become an outright war or that there may be civil unrest against the govt or actual civil war of the kind that Africa has seen so much of in the past 50 years. It is my contention that this would be a good thing - for the longer term. Because, until this is opened out and dealt with - it will never be over. The best way to end a war is to start it.
This is all part of my view that the peaceful transition that Mandela achieved may not have been the best for the country - in the longer term. However, in almost any country in the world, to say that Mandela did not do the right thing is enough to get you strung up. I have endless admiration for the man and what he did but it will be another 40 years before we know if it was the right thing.
Balmy
if this is not war then what is????
A civil war is when two main groupings within a country fight each other for control fo the country but the criminals doing the attacking are not a group - they all are doing their own thing and only for themelves. Of course, when you put it altogether - then it looks like a war. Sorry if this is too much of a dictionary definition but one has to start with what the words mean.
It is possible that it will become an outright war or that there may be civil unrest against the govt or actual civil war of the kind that Africa has seen so much of in the past 50 years. It is my contention that this would be a good thing - for the longer term. Because, until this is opened out and dealt with - it will never be over. The best way to end a war is to start it.
This is all part of my view that the peaceful transition that Mandela achieved may not have been the best for the country - in the longer term. However, in almost any country in the world, to say that Mandela did not do the right thing is enough to get you strung up. I have endless admiration for the man and what he did but it will be another 40 years before we know if it was the right thing.
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PAXboy
Oh its a war all right, 52000 US soldiers died in the Vietnam war, 50 people a day are murded in SA thats 18250 per year, just check out the letter from the Chief Economist of FNB in my previous post he explains it very well, its a war but not in the conventional sense.
Balloothebear, sorry about your dog hope he gets better, and just to set the record straight, I am not a head in the sand optimist, I have posted 2 letters, one on the negativity of South Africans and one on the Crime, I am playing both sides, I dont want to leave but trying to decide if I should, unfortunatley most posts from guys who have left are horribly negative and I have to say that I take those with a pinch of salt because they need to believe they have made a wise choice, and maybe they have, maybe not.
It surely feels like one but I don't think that it is a war
Balloothebear, sorry about your dog hope he gets better, and just to set the record straight, I am not a head in the sand optimist, I have posted 2 letters, one on the negativity of South Africans and one on the Crime, I am playing both sides, I dont want to leave but trying to decide if I should, unfortunatley most posts from guys who have left are horribly negative and I have to say that I take those with a pinch of salt because they need to believe they have made a wise choice, and maybe they have, maybe not.
Paxing All Over The World
fluffy Thanks for the numbers, I did not know that they were that bad. Yes, you have the right to call it a war.
As to those that left ZA still 'convincing' themselves that it was the right thing to do ... I can only go on the experience of my brother and his family.
My family emigrated from the UK in 1966 when we were children. I came back to the UK and have made all of my adult life here. My brother settled, married and moved to Cape Town, later they downsized and moved to Knysna.
As things got worse in the late 90s, they had thought that they would wait until their children had finished school, rather than disrupt them - both were in early teens. Yet they thought that it was getting so bad (in Knysna??!!) that they returned to the UK 2.5 years ago.
My brother had to take a full demotion in work, having never worked here and was then nearly 50 years old. He and his wife have really grafted and the children have worked hard at school and to integrate. What do they think? They are very happy with their move. Life is tough at times, money is tight and they don't like the weather but they say that they did the right thing for the whole family.
I believe him. If they were forcing themselves to say that it was all good, then I would know. But they are glad they made the move and my brother is not an emotional guy but one who makes slow, careful decisions.
Our sister still lives in ZA and I try not think of the risks they face every week for no one is safe, due to the sheer randomness of the attacks. No one can shield themselves at all times. That is why I am 'negative' about ZA.
As to those that left ZA still 'convincing' themselves that it was the right thing to do ... I can only go on the experience of my brother and his family.
My family emigrated from the UK in 1966 when we were children. I came back to the UK and have made all of my adult life here. My brother settled, married and moved to Cape Town, later they downsized and moved to Knysna.
As things got worse in the late 90s, they had thought that they would wait until their children had finished school, rather than disrupt them - both were in early teens. Yet they thought that it was getting so bad (in Knysna??!!) that they returned to the UK 2.5 years ago.
My brother had to take a full demotion in work, having never worked here and was then nearly 50 years old. He and his wife have really grafted and the children have worked hard at school and to integrate. What do they think? They are very happy with their move. Life is tough at times, money is tight and they don't like the weather but they say that they did the right thing for the whole family.
I believe him. If they were forcing themselves to say that it was all good, then I would know. But they are glad they made the move and my brother is not an emotional guy but one who makes slow, careful decisions.
Our sister still lives in ZA and I try not think of the risks they face every week for no one is safe, due to the sheer randomness of the attacks. No one can shield themselves at all times. That is why I am 'negative' about ZA.
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Me negative about SA - Never I love the place!!!!!!
Me negative about how much money it will cost me to defend myself in court after I shoot the the zot that pointed a gun at my wife and daughter yesterday then burst out laughing before he ran away - yeah sure.!!!
5:1 quota - bring it on.
Me negative about how much money it will cost me to defend myself in court after I shoot the the zot that pointed a gun at my wife and daughter yesterday then burst out laughing before he ran away - yeah sure.!!!
5:1 quota - bring it on.
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So what now....
Now, the question we have to ask ourselves. Are we going to sit back and watch our beautifull country take the same route as Zimbabwe..(or the same route as the rest of africa for that matter)? It is a pity that we are outnumbered and outgunned and have to watch more and more of the white safricans leave.
We have to act now?But how?Like we all seen, the gov in SA has such a big grip on the white safricans and we are called racists for playing songs which has nothing to do with clashes between white and black in SA. It is about a hero, camaraderie and standing up for our country a decade ago. The country that our grandfather batteled so hard for.
I am not a racist, just a realist. I dont judge anybody by the colour of their skin, I am just saying that we should pull out the ones at the top that allow this s*^& to happen!!!
We have to act now?But how?Like we all seen, the gov in SA has such a big grip on the white safricans and we are called racists for playing songs which has nothing to do with clashes between white and black in SA. It is about a hero, camaraderie and standing up for our country a decade ago. The country that our grandfather batteled so hard for.
I am not a racist, just a realist. I dont judge anybody by the colour of their skin, I am just saying that we should pull out the ones at the top that allow this s*^& to happen!!!