Is it just me?
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126,7 Not till I have that job offer firmly in my grubby little paws.
Okay, for the rest of you, there are two things that irk me and that happens on a daily basis into Cpt. I know that it is only a small percentage of pilots doing it so this is not a general moan to all.
This forum, I take it, was designed to help us sort out these kind of issues.
1) When cleared for a radar vectored ILS approach RWY01 from 3000ft why do some decend to 2000.....? Yes the plate on the VOR/DME/ILS approach says you may (level turn at 2000ft inside 9 dme) but you're not flying that approach and you're most likely outside of 11 dme on a vectored ILS. This means you're decending into military restricted airspace.
2) When given clearance to vacate the RWY onto 'C' for example, that is your clearance limit. You may not enter B with further taxi instructions. You don't know who's been given pushback off the ramp or whether anyone else has been given taxi clearance from H.
Questions are welcome...
Okay, for the rest of you, there are two things that irk me and that happens on a daily basis into Cpt. I know that it is only a small percentage of pilots doing it so this is not a general moan to all.
This forum, I take it, was designed to help us sort out these kind of issues.
1) When cleared for a radar vectored ILS approach RWY01 from 3000ft why do some decend to 2000.....? Yes the plate on the VOR/DME/ILS approach says you may (level turn at 2000ft inside 9 dme) but you're not flying that approach and you're most likely outside of 11 dme on a vectored ILS. This means you're decending into military restricted airspace.
2) When given clearance to vacate the RWY onto 'C' for example, that is your clearance limit. You may not enter B with further taxi instructions. You don't know who's been given pushback off the ramp or whether anyone else has been given taxi clearance from H.
Questions are welcome...
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and a third point:
why do pilots say : "Cape Town ..... 123 request" and not finish the sentence.
You dont do it when u request push and start - you ALWAYS finish the sentence, likewise when u request descent, but for anything other than those 2, it seems, you want to establish contact first...........please do go ahead and finish the sentence, it is not necessary to establish contact all the time. Remember it is VHF
and a 4th point:
what is the difference between "ready" and "fully ready"?????
I am told by a yellow tail pilot "fully ready" means both the cockpit and cabin is ready, and "ready" means the cockpit is ready but not the cabin????? and to prove it, when they call the tower and are ready and you clear them for take-off, the response is often sorry we are just waiting for the cabin!!!
why do pilots say : "Cape Town ..... 123 request" and not finish the sentence.
You dont do it when u request push and start - you ALWAYS finish the sentence, likewise when u request descent, but for anything other than those 2, it seems, you want to establish contact first...........please do go ahead and finish the sentence, it is not necessary to establish contact all the time. Remember it is VHF
and a 4th point:
what is the difference between "ready" and "fully ready"?????
I am told by a yellow tail pilot "fully ready" means both the cockpit and cabin is ready, and "ready" means the cockpit is ready but not the cabin????? and to prove it, when they call the tower and are ready and you clear them for take-off, the response is often sorry we are just waiting for the cabin!!!
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Reference point no 1:
U are being vectored u are not doing a letdown please do not mix the two up. When u being vectored u intercept the g/slope at the last cleared alt. And dont compare is to FAJS please, remember 8000ft at FAJS is the initial approach alt, 2000ft vs 3000ft is well below Initial app alt at FACT. Thanks.
But we can sort these out at the next stammtisch which might have to be held in both Aussie and Cape Town
U are being vectored u are not doing a letdown please do not mix the two up. When u being vectored u intercept the g/slope at the last cleared alt. And dont compare is to FAJS please, remember 8000ft at FAJS is the initial approach alt, 2000ft vs 3000ft is well below Initial app alt at FACT. Thanks.
But we can sort these out at the next stammtisch which might have to be held in both Aussie and Cape Town
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GF, the reason that "request" is used without adding what is wanted is the same way that ATC calls and says "Springbok xxx, Joburg" without specifying what they want. It is a way of making contact in an environment where both the flight crews and ATC may be preoccupied with something else and the request is usually non-standard. It does no harm!!
As for fully ready, this comes from more advanced ATC environments where clearances are obtained at or just before scheduled departure time and ATC will come back with "Speedbird XXX, confirm fully ready?" Fully ready means that when they have finished reading back the clearance they can hand you over to ground for push and start.
As for fully ready, this comes from more advanced ATC environments where clearances are obtained at or just before scheduled departure time and ATC will come back with "Speedbird XXX, confirm fully ready?" Fully ready means that when they have finished reading back the clearance they can hand you over to ground for push and start.
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JBfan
I think GF meant pilots that say 'fully ready' at the holding point. You're either ready or you're not.
As for the 'request' we are there waiting in anticipation for your every call. You don't have to turn one transmission into two on frequencies that are becoming more and more congested. All we're going to do is roll our eyes and say, 'Go ahead'. You don't establish contact before requesting decend. Why do so before a request?
I think GF meant pilots that say 'fully ready' at the holding point. You're either ready or you're not.
As for the 'request' we are there waiting in anticipation for your every call. You don't have to turn one transmission into two on frequencies that are becoming more and more congested. All we're going to do is roll our eyes and say, 'Go ahead'. You don't establish contact before requesting decend. Why do so before a request?
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I agree with Jaybayfan, in Europe ATC will ask if you are fully ready, the same as with a previous post as to ac asking about speeds. Jhb is busy, but no busier than manchester or heathrow and it is common practice there. As our freind srt once said, "sometimes you guys pick the corn out of the SH
t!! Ha Ha
t!! Ha Ha
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My bug bear is, a/c at the hold reporting "ready in turn" when there's nothing infront of them and nothing on final app, I begin to question my sanity, eyesight and radar, what have I not seen. Prior warning my response in future will be "line up in turn".
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Sometimes I find JHB tower a little cumbersome. Questions like "do you have the xxx on short final in sight?" Most other ATC's in South Africa, and abroad say, "behind the landing xxx, or xxx on short final, line up (behind)..." They assume pilots can see an aircraft when its moments from touchdown. Why do only JHB atc ask this?
Often feel like saying something to the effect that "my eyes are not so good and I can't see the aircraft!"
Often feel like saying something to the effect that "my eyes are not so good and I can't see the aircraft!"
Last edited by FO Gyro; 21st Feb 2007 at 20:48.
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Well said FO Gyro, I on occasions catch myself saying that to. I will stop insulting your eyesight.
Here's just a point, but just because they say 'fully ready' in Europe it doesn't make it right. When someone calls me ready at the holding point I really don't have the time to reconfirm that they're 'fully ready' before clearing them for an immediate take off.
Does anyone know if 'fully ready' is even in the ICAO docs?
Here's just a point, but just because they say 'fully ready' in Europe it doesn't make it right. When someone calls me ready at the holding point I really don't have the time to reconfirm that they're 'fully ready' before clearing them for an immediate take off.
Does anyone know if 'fully ready' is even in the ICAO docs?
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Can't speak for the other operators or fleets, but on B738's for Scareways, when Ground says "Contact tower when READY", we try and do exactly that, or otherwise contact tower and tell them how long before being ready.
It's a bit unprofessional from the pilots point of view to make ATC wait. When contacting tower, after being told to "WHEN READY", ATC shouldn't have to ask "are you ready for an immediate?". By contacting tower, the a/c should be ready, or otherwise say if they are not surely...
It's a bit unprofessional from the pilots point of view to make ATC wait. When contacting tower, after being told to "WHEN READY", ATC shouldn't have to ask "are you ready for an immediate?". By contacting tower, the a/c should be ready, or otherwise say if they are not surely...
Interesting thread drift
Some years ago, in joining the circuit at FACT I had a controller instruct me to position myself "behind ZS-ABC" or words to that effect. I replied that I could not read the rego so he huffily re-phrased to "behind the Cessna on short final". My situational awareness gave me a fairly good idea of which A/C was ZS-ABC but I could not be 100% certain as I had just come on frequency & was also concentrating on other things - was the controller wrong to use the rego for identification purposes?
Some years ago, in joining the circuit at FACT I had a controller instruct me to position myself "behind ZS-ABC" or words to that effect. I replied that I could not read the rego so he huffily re-phrased to "behind the Cessna on short final". My situational awareness gave me a fairly good idea of which A/C was ZS-ABC but I could not be 100% certain as I had just come on frequency & was also concentrating on other things - was the controller wrong to use the rego for identification purposes?
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BOK2GO your first point, I dont know why they do that, its dangerous though and I hope you kak on them when it happens.
Point 2 : its a good point, most if not all operators do this, I agree its wrong but sometimes ground frequency can be quite busy and if you are landing on 21L in JHB with 3 aircraft behind you with 5 mile separation between them and you turn off at T and just sit there you could cause all sorts of Chaos, but its obvious turning off at T that you are not going to conflict with other taxying aircraft, a different story at CT I suppose...good point I will advise future Captains (seeing as they do the taxi on the 737) of our taxi clearance in future
Point 3 : This also irritates the hell out of me when I hear it, I think its because flying over Africa with congestion and poor English being spoken you sometimes want to know that the station is listening to you before you do your whole speech only to get "Station calling say again", it seems to be normal over Africa and especially on the HF, I suppose its hard to break the habit when you cross the border sometimes.
Point 4 : Dont know what the difference is, at the company I work for there is no such thing as "fully ready"
Point 2 : its a good point, most if not all operators do this, I agree its wrong but sometimes ground frequency can be quite busy and if you are landing on 21L in JHB with 3 aircraft behind you with 5 mile separation between them and you turn off at T and just sit there you could cause all sorts of Chaos, but its obvious turning off at T that you are not going to conflict with other taxying aircraft, a different story at CT I suppose...good point I will advise future Captains (seeing as they do the taxi on the 737) of our taxi clearance in future
Point 3 : This also irritates the hell out of me when I hear it, I think its because flying over Africa with congestion and poor English being spoken you sometimes want to know that the station is listening to you before you do your whole speech only to get "Station calling say again", it seems to be normal over Africa and especially on the HF, I suppose its hard to break the habit when you cross the border sometimes.
Point 4 : Dont know what the difference is, at the company I work for there is no such thing as "fully ready"
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James Ozzie
The ATC was wrong. We're to tell you to position behind an a/c type and not a registration. We also try give an accurate position of the a/c eg. short final/3 mile final, etc.
If doubt exists then question as you did.
The ATC was wrong. We're to tell you to position behind an a/c type and not a registration. We also try give an accurate position of the a/c eg. short final/3 mile final, etc.
If doubt exists then question as you did.
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BOK2GO a question
SAA is trying to save themselves to profit, not just SAA but all the airlines, its basically about survival now.
Who designs arrivals departures etc is it ATNS?
SAA pilots are being asked to carry very little extra fuel on top of the figure given by the SITA flight plan, I personally cant see the huge saving here, for example on a flight from JHB to Cape Town if one was to uplift and extra ton of fuel on top of the SITA figure, that would only amount to an extra burn of 30kg, you may say that over x number of flights that is a huge saving, but lets now factor in some bad weather and delays due to ATC, now if you take SITA fuel you may have 5 mins of fuel before you have to divert, so factoring in any diversions that may occur the amount of fuel saved is reduced.
This said I would like to know if the airline companies talk to ATNS, about ways to help out your clients, for example getting rid of the ridiculous Vavan arrival in Durban which adds 15 mins to a flight if Rnw 06 is in use, would save 500 to 600 kg of fuel per flight, are the airlines putting any pressure on ATNS to pay there staff better and hire more people to aleviate the pressure on Radar by opening more sectors?
I know I should probably ask someone in the airline company that I work for these questions, but from your side do you know of anything going on to help reduce the cost to your clients, and if not why not because I see efficient ATC and airspace management as potentially the largest area of saving any airline can make per flight.
SAA is trying to save themselves to profit, not just SAA but all the airlines, its basically about survival now.
Who designs arrivals departures etc is it ATNS?
SAA pilots are being asked to carry very little extra fuel on top of the figure given by the SITA flight plan, I personally cant see the huge saving here, for example on a flight from JHB to Cape Town if one was to uplift and extra ton of fuel on top of the SITA figure, that would only amount to an extra burn of 30kg, you may say that over x number of flights that is a huge saving, but lets now factor in some bad weather and delays due to ATC, now if you take SITA fuel you may have 5 mins of fuel before you have to divert, so factoring in any diversions that may occur the amount of fuel saved is reduced.
This said I would like to know if the airline companies talk to ATNS, about ways to help out your clients, for example getting rid of the ridiculous Vavan arrival in Durban which adds 15 mins to a flight if Rnw 06 is in use, would save 500 to 600 kg of fuel per flight, are the airlines putting any pressure on ATNS to pay there staff better and hire more people to aleviate the pressure on Radar by opening more sectors?
I know I should probably ask someone in the airline company that I work for these questions, but from your side do you know of anything going on to help reduce the cost to your clients, and if not why not because I see efficient ATC and airspace management as potentially the largest area of saving any airline can make per flight.
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Fluffyfan
I know, I look at some of our departures out of Cpt and just shake my head sometimes. If you're flying the full Okted departure and route to FAEL off rwy01 there are something like 14 turns on it. You cross the GE inbound tfc atleast twice. Whoever came up with that should be shot!!!!
It's tfc unfriendly, pilot unfriendly and atc unfriendly. It adds about 40 nm to the route.
I'm not sure who is in charge of airspace efficiency/defficiency but a quick phonecall to Isando would put you in touch with the correct person.
We are moving away from straight in approaches and towards STARS that join downwinds for sequencing reasons. It's much easier to position a/c from downwind into position more efficiently.
As for more sectors, I wouldn't hold my breath, not until ATNS can get staffing levels required.
It's tfc unfriendly, pilot unfriendly and atc unfriendly. It adds about 40 nm to the route.
I'm not sure who is in charge of airspace efficiency/defficiency but a quick phonecall to Isando would put you in touch with the correct person.
We are moving away from straight in approaches and towards STARS that join downwinds for sequencing reasons. It's much easier to position a/c from downwind into position more efficiently.
As for more sectors, I wouldn't hold my breath, not until ATNS can get staffing levels required.
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There is a division in Isando that does the STAR's/SID's and the route matrix ("Airspace Management and Planning", something to that effect),it consists of EX-ATC's and to the best of my knowledge their is input is from ATNS,Airlines,Acft Operators and of course the CAA. As to the dilema of the Okted Dep of RWy01 it was proposed to to be changed during 2006,where that ended up i have no idea.
