European Airline's view on ex Africa pilots?
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i second that kesho...
i did contract flying for 5 years and have since come to europe to fly...wow, what a difference, the level of procedural instrument flying, and the way things are down, sids, rnav stars, transitions, taxi-ing around the major airports....
all i can say is, contract flying didnt prepare me for any of that, infact the amount of vfr flying is actually a hinderance.
contract flying increases your hands on flying skills, but when do we ever do that, sometimes a little before RVSM airspace, the odd visual we get and when we get to go back to africa...
think whatever you like, but dont over-rate youself because you have been to algeria, afghanistan, middle east etc....so have many others too!
i did contract flying for 5 years and have since come to europe to fly...wow, what a difference, the level of procedural instrument flying, and the way things are down, sids, rnav stars, transitions, taxi-ing around the major airports....
all i can say is, contract flying didnt prepare me for any of that, infact the amount of vfr flying is actually a hinderance.
contract flying increases your hands on flying skills, but when do we ever do that, sometimes a little before RVSM airspace, the odd visual we get and when we get to go back to africa...
think whatever you like, but dont over-rate youself because you have been to algeria, afghanistan, middle east etc....so have many others too!
Last edited by south coast; 25th Aug 2006 at 07:50.
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What I've been saying all along. Contract flying is regarded as a training ground for cowboys and the longer you spend doing it the worse it looks on your CV. Some of us don't have a lot of choice as that elusive airline job is difficult to pin down when you spend so little time at home.
Your procedural IF while doing charters counts for more than any amount of time spent doing day VFR approaches into short bush strips with a firefight going on in the vicinity.
Your procedural IF while doing charters counts for more than any amount of time spent doing day VFR approaches into short bush strips with a firefight going on in the vicinity.
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I agree. Whislt contract flying is all good fun and it builds your total time it does very little for your procedural skills. Went from instructing and charter in pistons to contract either way did little I.F flying, came as a shock how rusty i was after just over 2 years contract and only the odd approach.
I don't think any company per say looks down on contract flying more the attitude you portray at your interview towards that flying. If you come across as cocky and cowboy, guess what guys you're not going to get the job.
I don't think any company per say looks down on contract flying more the attitude you portray at your interview towards that flying. If you come across as cocky and cowboy, guess what guys you're not going to get the job.
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aha, but there are people out there who do contract flying, as well as procedural charter/corporate/schedule stuff. You cannot compare the two, but I stand firm that bush flying does wonders for your "hands" - not for your procedural skills.
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SC
Agree 100%...
Getting the job in the first place was tough, and the type-rating was hard work, but nothing could have prepared me for line training. Flying around Europe is all about procedures and professional R/T...
i did contract flying for 5 years and have since come to europe to fly...wow, what a difference, the level of procedural instrument flying, and the way things are down, sids, rnav stars, transitions, taxi-ing around the major airports....
Getting the job in the first place was tough, and the type-rating was hard work, but nothing could have prepared me for line training. Flying around Europe is all about procedures and professional R/T...
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I.R PIRATE - If you compare two chaps that have gone different routes in their flying careers, I agree that the guy who went the contract route will be a better pilot in handling the aircraft up a certain point only. He is thrown into a deeper end and discretion and decision making will force the contract pilot to mature faster. In my view a F/O with 500 hrs in the bush might be able to control an aircraft slightly better than an F/O with 500 hrs in the charter market on the equivalent a/c. But now I do not think the same would apply if they both had 3000hrs on type. They will be both professional pilots and just as capable on that aircraft type.
The contract market is only good for some hour building and then one must seek employment elsewhere. I understand it is very hard to move onto more fancy aircraft, but one has to try as there is only so much one can learn on contract and it is not the best set up to have a personal life. If you spent a couple of years on contract most of the spots will have been covered and hence the flying is quite straight forward really. It gets more tricky when planes get bigger and systems more complex and fuel becomes more critical...but majority of the contract flying is done in King Airs, 1900s, Vans, Twotters, Lets....and all those aircraft really fly themselves.
If a contract pilot really thinks that they are better than the other types of pilots out there, he or she has clearly spent too much time in the bush!
The contract market is only good for some hour building and then one must seek employment elsewhere. I understand it is very hard to move onto more fancy aircraft, but one has to try as there is only so much one can learn on contract and it is not the best set up to have a personal life. If you spent a couple of years on contract most of the spots will have been covered and hence the flying is quite straight forward really. It gets more tricky when planes get bigger and systems more complex and fuel becomes more critical...but majority of the contract flying is done in King Airs, 1900s, Vans, Twotters, Lets....and all those aircraft really fly themselves.
If a contract pilot really thinks that they are better than the other types of pilots out there, he or she has clearly spent too much time in the bush!
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Quote from Kesho
You are right Kesho!,just wish my Airbus had a autopilot like those turboprops!
I did my many years on contract, and the guys I met there all over are of a special breed. Its not about hands on-procedures etc, Its about going to some god foresaken place and earning your experience by operators. Contract dogs operate, come rain or shine, broken planes or overloaded, they learn to make a plan (am not saying break the law). Realising that the impossible is viable-and at the end of the day (or night) going back to your shelter (not the Sheraton Kesho) and having a cold one with one your fellow pilot mates who has had a similar day. Its not always glamerous-not always dull. But I do have a soft spot for fellow contract dogs who sold their soul
Its the african pilots who have not seen the dark side who hear all the stories and wish they had seen contract that frown the most. Its alot like doin service in the army-you never regret it but would not go do it again.
And by the way, the cabin crew here in Europe love the contract stories! haha
It gets more tricky when planes get bigger and systems more complex and fuel becomes more critical...but majority of the contract flying is done in King Airs, 1900s, Vans, Twotters, Lets....and all those aircraft really fly themselves.
I did my many years on contract, and the guys I met there all over are of a special breed. Its not about hands on-procedures etc, Its about going to some god foresaken place and earning your experience by operators. Contract dogs operate, come rain or shine, broken planes or overloaded, they learn to make a plan (am not saying break the law). Realising that the impossible is viable-and at the end of the day (or night) going back to your shelter (not the Sheraton Kesho) and having a cold one with one your fellow pilot mates who has had a similar day. Its not always glamerous-not always dull. But I do have a soft spot for fellow contract dogs who sold their soul
Its the african pilots who have not seen the dark side who hear all the stories and wish they had seen contract that frown the most. Its alot like doin service in the army-you never regret it but would not go do it again.
And by the way, the cabin crew here in Europe love the contract stories! haha
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Speaking as somebody who has flown as a "bush" pilot in Africa and as a long serving airline Captain for a European airline, and been involved in airline recruitment, I can tell you that it matters not one jot where you have collected your past experience. Certainly how it helps compose your CV or it how it helps your conversational deportment may play a factor, but that is about it.
Airline recruiters are usually looking to select for interview and subsequently for employment individuals who the recruiters feel will best fit into their own perception of that airlines culture. As with any interview it is largely a case of making an impression on the interviewer that you are a personable individual who will fit in and settle quickly into the company concerned. The fact you have been selected for interview at all means you are in the running to sell yourself on your own personality. The truth of it is that nobody could care less or in any way concern themselves that your previous bush flying, contract flying, or anything else, would affect your ability to fly in RVSM airspace or structured airline flying. It is about you as a person. It is not about you thinking you are a better pilot than than someone else (that is for the private world of your own ego). It is about the interviewer ( as a pilot ) wondering if you are likely to be the sort of person they would be happy to work with all day or all week. It is about you being the sort of person the interviewer thinks will stay and advance with the company, and be an asset to that company. It is about personality, smartness, impression, communication, and at the end of the day some degree of luck that the combination of these things strikes the right ressonance with the interviewer.
You can portray yourself as Gods gift to aviation on forums such as this with impunity, but at an interview you will be met with a courteous smile and a subsequent thin envelope in the post. Succesful pilots come from a wide variety of backgrounds.
Airline recruiters are usually looking to select for interview and subsequently for employment individuals who the recruiters feel will best fit into their own perception of that airlines culture. As with any interview it is largely a case of making an impression on the interviewer that you are a personable individual who will fit in and settle quickly into the company concerned. The fact you have been selected for interview at all means you are in the running to sell yourself on your own personality. The truth of it is that nobody could care less or in any way concern themselves that your previous bush flying, contract flying, or anything else, would affect your ability to fly in RVSM airspace or structured airline flying. It is about you as a person. It is not about you thinking you are a better pilot than than someone else (that is for the private world of your own ego). It is about the interviewer ( as a pilot ) wondering if you are likely to be the sort of person they would be happy to work with all day or all week. It is about you being the sort of person the interviewer thinks will stay and advance with the company, and be an asset to that company. It is about personality, smartness, impression, communication, and at the end of the day some degree of luck that the combination of these things strikes the right ressonance with the interviewer.
You can portray yourself as Gods gift to aviation on forums such as this with impunity, but at an interview you will be met with a courteous smile and a subsequent thin envelope in the post. Succesful pilots come from a wide variety of backgrounds.
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Out of my own experience i do not totally agree with Kesho. I admitt i had difficulties after coming from Africa to get into the tight procedural flying of Europe and my IFR skills were very rusty indeed. But this was sorted out very quickly.
But as i am flying across Europe in my CRJ with cpt's off all sorts of backgrounds (military, charter, direct from the LH flightschool and the odd old bush pilot) i must say that i prefer to fly with the former charter and bush pilots than the direct from the flightschool guys. The latter think they now everything (because they are from the best flyingschool world wide
). The problem with them is they have seen nothing in aviation at all. The books are holier than the bible, and they prefer to fly into a mountain according SOP´s in stead of thinking for a moment and fly around it.
It doesn't matter how many SOP's and books are written, a pilot need some understanding of the environment he is flying in. He must be able to think judge the situation, and make a decision combining his knowledge, the SOP's books etc. and not start to think; at what page is this problem written down...
If you have flown alone across a demanding place you have better airmanship (or whatever you want to call it). And this will help you in your carreer no matter what kind of flying you do.
Cheers
But as i am flying across Europe in my CRJ with cpt's off all sorts of backgrounds (military, charter, direct from the LH flightschool and the odd old bush pilot) i must say that i prefer to fly with the former charter and bush pilots than the direct from the flightschool guys. The latter think they now everything (because they are from the best flyingschool world wide
). The problem with them is they have seen nothing in aviation at all. The books are holier than the bible, and they prefer to fly into a mountain according SOP´s in stead of thinking for a moment and fly around it. It doesn't matter how many SOP's and books are written, a pilot need some understanding of the environment he is flying in. He must be able to think judge the situation, and make a decision combining his knowledge, the SOP's books etc. and not start to think; at what page is this problem written down...
If you have flown alone across a demanding place you have better airmanship (or whatever you want to call it). And this will help you in your carreer no matter what kind of flying you do.
Cheers
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I got my first UK airline job because of bush flying. The boss thought that I must be a decent chap as I'd been flying for an NGO in Africa; what a bizarre way to recruit! Unfortunately his maintenance was considerably more African than the African's, and after one maintenance-related accident I quickly left to save my skin and licence.
Having flown since with Capts and FOs of all backgrounds I'd hazard a guess that those who have done something different, and particularly had some variety in their flying careers have a better basis for decision making than the one-type-for-life fella who came to it straight out of flight school. I now regularly fly with these, who are all excellent pilots, but sometimes lack the judgement that comes from broader experience, particularly so as my company seems to actively discourage initiative and thinking (aka airmanship) by stifling them under oppressively detailed SOPs.
If you go straight to jets you've missed out entirely on life between 3000' and FL330, and that's a big hole in your repertoire. As a line Capt my choice of FO is ex turboprop, skipper or FO matters not, and if they've done some bush or utility too then so much the better, they've got the scars and medals to prove it. I'm just not convinced about the "monoculture" career path.
Having flown since with Capts and FOs of all backgrounds I'd hazard a guess that those who have done something different, and particularly had some variety in their flying careers have a better basis for decision making than the one-type-for-life fella who came to it straight out of flight school. I now regularly fly with these, who are all excellent pilots, but sometimes lack the judgement that comes from broader experience, particularly so as my company seems to actively discourage initiative and thinking (aka airmanship) by stifling them under oppressively detailed SOPs.
If you go straight to jets you've missed out entirely on life between 3000' and FL330, and that's a big hole in your repertoire. As a line Capt my choice of FO is ex turboprop, skipper or FO matters not, and if they've done some bush or utility too then so much the better, they've got the scars and medals to prove it. I'm just not convinced about the "monoculture" career path.
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Ryanair
Sounds like the equivalent of the bush pilots here in Europe. Plenty of visual approaches and circling to land in 737-800s.
Crappy airfields where ATC tell you radar service terminated at FL100 and find your own way to the runway - dodging the gliders on the way. Good fun apart from 4 sectors and 12 hours a day gets a bit knackering. I whimped out and went long-haul - too much like hard work but good experience.
My first job was on a 737-300 and I regularly had to contend with 30 knot crosswinds gusting to 45 and pissing down with rain onto a 2000m runway - plenty of hands-on work involved in short haul IFR European jet flying I can assure you. Get a job with a LoCo somewhere like Prestwick or Leeds in the UK and you'll see weather the autopilot / autothrust can't handle on a regular basis.
Didn't get any lions on the runwary though - just French students on strike.
There's no snobbery here in Europe about prop flying. It's just that there are hardly any prop operations left here. It's easier to get a jet job due to massive expansion of Easyjet and Ryanair than it is to get a turbo prop job. Also, under JAA rules you have to have 700 hours to be able to fly single pilot IFR. It would be pretty difficult to operate commerically here VFR only due to the density of the airspace and crappy weather.
At the end of the day, you get good pilots from all kinds of backgrounds - ab-initio, bush, military, instructing etc - it's down to the calibre, attitude and personality of the indiviudal more than anything.
Cheers.
Crappy airfields where ATC tell you radar service terminated at FL100 and find your own way to the runway - dodging the gliders on the way. Good fun apart from 4 sectors and 12 hours a day gets a bit knackering. I whimped out and went long-haul - too much like hard work but good experience.
My first job was on a 737-300 and I regularly had to contend with 30 knot crosswinds gusting to 45 and pissing down with rain onto a 2000m runway - plenty of hands-on work involved in short haul IFR European jet flying I can assure you. Get a job with a LoCo somewhere like Prestwick or Leeds in the UK and you'll see weather the autopilot / autothrust can't handle on a regular basis.
Didn't get any lions on the runwary though - just French students on strike.
There's no snobbery here in Europe about prop flying. It's just that there are hardly any prop operations left here. It's easier to get a jet job due to massive expansion of Easyjet and Ryanair than it is to get a turbo prop job. Also, under JAA rules you have to have 700 hours to be able to fly single pilot IFR. It would be pretty difficult to operate commerically here VFR only due to the density of the airspace and crappy weather.
At the end of the day, you get good pilots from all kinds of backgrounds - ab-initio, bush, military, instructing etc - it's down to the calibre, attitude and personality of the indiviudal more than anything.
Cheers.
Last edited by buttline; 26th Aug 2006 at 05:28.
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Jealous obviously
Who would you rather interview from these two CV's?
1) Frozen ATPL, 1400 hrs. After Oxford course, initially flew B747 as P3, was upgraded to P2 after 2 years. Good knowledge of Captain's meal requirements.
2) CPL/IR, 1400hrs. Initially flew solo IFR on a C414 doing night freight in the Congo. Upgraded to C208, flew disaster relief in the Sudan, Somalia and DRC. B200 rating followed, flying for UN in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Flew a B1900 in West Africa, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Malabo etc. Later contracts in Algeria and Libya. Now flying F28's in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon. Expert on short runways and long days.
1) Frozen ATPL, 1400 hrs. After Oxford course, initially flew B747 as P3, was upgraded to P2 after 2 years. Good knowledge of Captain's meal requirements.
2) CPL/IR, 1400hrs. Initially flew solo IFR on a C414 doing night freight in the Congo. Upgraded to C208, flew disaster relief in the Sudan, Somalia and DRC. B200 rating followed, flying for UN in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Flew a B1900 in West Africa, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Malabo etc. Later contracts in Algeria and Libya. Now flying F28's in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon. Expert on short runways and long days.
Kesho you have shown your hand! As an experienced pilot, having flown in Africa (bush pilot) and the civilised world (airline pilot) I know who of the above I would choose as my F/O and it would not be you!
The US systems works - you would need at least 1500 hours of which at least 500 turbine to land a F/O position with a Part 121 carrier. Stripes are earned not a right!
Contract Bush Pilots Rule!
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south coast sorry mate...that might have been my cv a few years back
Kesho says "Out of all the whites that are on this continent, the South African whites are the least capable of dealing with true Africans."
..erm, I dunno Kesho, we dealt with you fine in the past... Chimoio, Cassinga spring directly to mind
I can't believe, think it was south coast, posted it was tough taxiing around some european airports
Mate, it might be confusing but it will hardly wear you out!!!
Sure if you are flying bush bush bush your IFR skills will atrophy but note that there are quite a few SA jet operators who fly contracts in all sorts of hell-holes. And not just VFR.
I don't have to explain why contract flying is more fun and a far superior pilot education than simple line-flying from A to B and back, day in day out. Those who do contract flying know this and those who have only done routine line flying are unaware and will remain so. Same as a military background provides a pilot with better hands-on skills and discipline, contract flying teaches you the real world, not JAR-OPS out of the book. Fact is, a pilot starting on contracts will learn all the little things far more quickly than a line pilot who is basically flying in a protected environment - you could say spoon-fed.
That being said, I agree (well said Bealzebub) that when it comes to airline recruitment it doesn't matter because the airlines are flying airline ops.
But its a simple matter to be bussed from your five-star hotel to the first-world airport you operate from to program your flying cinema to go to London/LAX/etc. Try surviving the night listening to the katyushas/mosquitoes, washing from a tap, getting to the dirt airstrip early to oversee your own fuelling/arming, you have to run the whole show down to the last sheet of bogroll. SRT you will know what I am on about - sure it might not help you get into the airlines but, hell, what a sense of perseverence through adversity!!
Anyway as I said, for those of you who haven't done it, you will never know!
You can just buy us beers in the pub and we will tell the stories
VIVA SACP!!
Kesho says "Out of all the whites that are on this continent, the South African whites are the least capable of dealing with true Africans."
..erm, I dunno Kesho, we dealt with you fine in the past... Chimoio, Cassinga spring directly to mind
I can't believe, think it was south coast, posted it was tough taxiing around some european airports
Mate, it might be confusing but it will hardly wear you out!!!Sure if you are flying bush bush bush your IFR skills will atrophy but note that there are quite a few SA jet operators who fly contracts in all sorts of hell-holes. And not just VFR.
I don't have to explain why contract flying is more fun and a far superior pilot education than simple line-flying from A to B and back, day in day out. Those who do contract flying know this and those who have only done routine line flying are unaware and will remain so. Same as a military background provides a pilot with better hands-on skills and discipline, contract flying teaches you the real world, not JAR-OPS out of the book. Fact is, a pilot starting on contracts will learn all the little things far more quickly than a line pilot who is basically flying in a protected environment - you could say spoon-fed.
That being said, I agree (well said Bealzebub) that when it comes to airline recruitment it doesn't matter because the airlines are flying airline ops.
But its a simple matter to be bussed from your five-star hotel to the first-world airport you operate from to program your flying cinema to go to London/LAX/etc. Try surviving the night listening to the katyushas/mosquitoes, washing from a tap, getting to the dirt airstrip early to oversee your own fuelling/arming, you have to run the whole show down to the last sheet of bogroll. SRT you will know what I am on about - sure it might not help you get into the airlines but, hell, what a sense of perseverence through adversity!!
Anyway as I said, for those of you who haven't done it, you will never know!
You can just buy us beers in the pub and we will tell the stories
VIVA SACP!!
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JG 1 - Had you dealt with them so well in the past, I do not think we would be in the situation we are in now.
Chimoio and Cassinga congratulations on a job well done!....hardly! I would only hope you had come out of those on top. To go out and say well done for a fantastic job is a bit ridiculous! Muzungu fighting in Africa can be compared to stealing candy from kids. But some enjoy thinking that they did a hell of a good job out there....each to their own opinion.
The thread was about bush flying experience how good or bad it might be in an interview so I think we have veered off the topic here. It sounds more like a war story competition of who has had it harder...who cares mate. I have been there done it and got the shirts too and am only ever so happy to have closed that chapter in my career. Just over 10 years of having fun is enough...The modern contracting scene has changed so much that I would hardly say it holds too much hardship anymore. Long gone are the days of doing six months to a year out in the field at a time, living in tents and buying your nyama from the local market down the path. These days you actually get paid in time to live in airconditioned rooms with DSTV and cooked meals with a fixed roster flying serviceable planes...
Back to the thread...
I have done my bit of flying in the bush with a couple diffrent aircraft and I do agree it is a fantastic learning ground...but only up to a point. And that point is reached very soon in ones flying career. In an interiew it is what you make of it, to use it to your advantage. The Airline will want a certain level of experience from the candidates and that experience should be commensurate with age. So it is pretty useless to have 5000hrs of bush flying if you do not even know how to use proper RT and procedural flying.
Chimoio and Cassinga congratulations on a job well done!....hardly! I would only hope you had come out of those on top. To go out and say well done for a fantastic job is a bit ridiculous! Muzungu fighting in Africa can be compared to stealing candy from kids. But some enjoy thinking that they did a hell of a good job out there....each to their own opinion.
The thread was about bush flying experience how good or bad it might be in an interview so I think we have veered off the topic here. It sounds more like a war story competition of who has had it harder...who cares mate. I have been there done it and got the shirts too and am only ever so happy to have closed that chapter in my career. Just over 10 years of having fun is enough...The modern contracting scene has changed so much that I would hardly say it holds too much hardship anymore. Long gone are the days of doing six months to a year out in the field at a time, living in tents and buying your nyama from the local market down the path. These days you actually get paid in time to live in airconditioned rooms with DSTV and cooked meals with a fixed roster flying serviceable planes...
Back to the thread...
I have done my bit of flying in the bush with a couple diffrent aircraft and I do agree it is a fantastic learning ground...but only up to a point. And that point is reached very soon in ones flying career. In an interiew it is what you make of it, to use it to your advantage. The Airline will want a certain level of experience from the candidates and that experience should be commensurate with age. So it is pretty useless to have 5000hrs of bush flying if you do not even know how to use proper RT and procedural flying.
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Long gone are the days of doing six months to a year out in the field at a time, living in tents and buying your nyama from the local market down the path. These days you actually get paid in time to live in airconditioned rooms with DSTV and cooked meals with a fixed roster flying serviceable planes...
Where do I sign up?